Jones Day (NY) vs. Mintz (BOS) Forum

[Anonymous User]

Sorry for (another one) of these - fortunate enough to have an offer for both of these firms (just got the Mintz one the other day) and feeling pretty conflicted. I made an earlier post for Jones Day (NY) vs. Holland & Knight (NY), but this one feels a lot closer to me

Factors under consideration -

1. Geography: Generally looking to be in the northeast (I’m from New York) but may be looking to be in Boston in a few years to be closer to my partner’s family as well. It’s not set either way. Mintz being in Boston is a plus here, but JD also has a Boston office and I’ve heard they’re pretty flexible about relocating down the line, so maybe it’s more of a wash? But my impression is that for the Boston area specifically, Mintz is more prominent. On the other hand, I’m not sure if I’m ready to go to Boston just yet and kind of like the idea of a couple more years in New York

2. Litigation Strength: Chambers has both of these listed Band 2 in their respective states, so they seem somewhat comparable. On the other hand, I know Mintz has a big life sciences focus, so it’s possible the diversity of litigation matters at JD might be greater

3. Work/Life Balance: This is very important to me, and probably the biggest plus to Mintz is that they seem like more of a lifestyle firm. I’ve heard the hours at JD are actually not as bad as peer firms, but it’s still not a lifestyle firm by any means

4. Compensation: Don’t love the black box at JD, and Mintz currently pays market, though I’m not sure if they’ve always historically matched market/whether they also match market bonuses, so it’s possible it’s more of a wash than it looks

5. Prestige/Exit Opportunities: I don’t really care about prestige for its own sake, but I do care about it in terms of exit opportunities it opens/closes. The idea of trying to be an AUSA one day is interesting to me, and I’m wondering if that’s easier to do from a more “prestigious” firm. That being said, JD also has all the Trump associations with it (as was pointed out to me in the previous thread) which I’m well aware of

6. Vibes: Honestly a wash for me - I really liked everyone I met at both firms and could see myself fitting in well at either. I also did really like the physical office for JD, but in all fairness, I didn’t get to see Mintz’s office so it’s hard to make a comparison there.

Any thoughts appreciated

[Anonymous User]

JD is a MAGA hotbed and massively under market for all-in comp. I think mintz has matched market recently, at least for the early years.

This seems like an easy choice, frankly.

I don’t have a dog in this fight because I’ve never worked at either one but I’ll just gripe anyway: I don’t understand why summers like you don’t punish JD more for being so under market by voting with your feet in situations like these, and correspondingly I also don’t understand how midlevels like me don’t punish them more in the vault rankings for the same reason. They’re the only firm that manages to get away with this. Feels like some sort of fedsoc conspiracy.

[Sackboy]

JD is a MAGA hotbed and massively under market for all-in comp. I think mintz has matched market recently, at least for the early years.

This seems like an easy choice, frankly.

I don’t have a dog in this fight because I’ve never worked at either one but I’ll just gripe anyway: I don’t understand why summers like you don’t punish JD more for being so under market by voting with your feet in situations like these, and correspondingly I also don’t understand how midlevels like me don’t punish them more in the vault rankings for the same reason. They’re the only firm that manages to get away with this. Feels like some sort of fedsoc conspiracy.

Is the point of anon to not take ownership for bad takes?

JD has a conservative appellate group. The rest of the firm is largely liberal, at least in major cities.

While Mintz has matched salary, I'd expect their bonuses to be black box and generally below market. The delta between JD and Mintz comp probably ends up being nonexistent in your typical year. JD is a more respected litigation shop and has a much broader national rep, even if weighed down by the Trump association, and it allows you to stay in NY. Lateraling or going in house is likely easier from JD. Neither firm is a lifestyle firm. Seems not particularly hard of a choice.

[Anonymous User]

JD is a MAGA hotbed and massively under market for all-in comp. I think mintz has matched market recently, at least for the early years.

This seems like an easy choice, frankly.

I don’t have a dog in this fight because I’ve never worked at either one but I’ll just gripe anyway: I don’t understand why summers like you don’t punish JD more for being so under market by voting with your feet in situations like these, and correspondingly I also don’t understand how midlevels like me don’t punish them more in the vault rankings for the same reason. They’re the only firm that manages to get away with this. Feels like some sort of fedsoc conspiracy.

"JD is a MAGA hotbed" stopped reading after this lol

[Anonymous User]

JD is a MAGA hotbed and massively under market for all-in comp. I think mintz has matched market recently, at least for the early years.

This seems like an easy choice, frankly.

I don’t have a dog in this fight because I’ve never worked at either one but I’ll just gripe anyway: I don’t understand why summers like you don’t punish JD more for being so under market by voting with your feet in situations like these, and correspondingly I also don’t understand how midlevels like me don’t punish them more in the vault rankings for the same reason. They’re the only firm that manages to get away with this. Feels like some sort of fedsoc conspiracy.

OP's only option is another firm that doesn't pay market bonuses. How else do you suggest that OP votes with their feet?

[Anonymous User]

Same anon who apparently caused everybody’s panties to get in a twist by saying something that was so factually grounded that I didn’t even know it was going to be a point of debate. I thought everybody just knew that Jones day is a maga hotbed. They scooped a ton of high level trump people and, more broadly, have quite the reputation for very right wing representations.

For instance, OP is looking in boston. Off the top of my head, boston JD office immediately took in trump’s USA for D. Mass before biden even won. Also (albeit not in boston), they took former White House counsel Don MCgahon (I’m sure I butchered that spelling). If I cared enough to spend 5 mins googling more examples I guarantee I could find them.

Didn’t know we had so many JD sympathizers on this forum. The “eff JD for their BS comp” is usually a pretty universally credited take. It’s crazy that they get away with their vault rank being so below market.

I should caveat that the “eff jd” ethos might not apply if you’re going into their appellate issues group which is very prestigious and pays way above market. But, since your alternative is mintz, I’m thinking it’s safe to assume you are not.

Back to mintz, I really think they did transparently match market pay last fall. (But I cannot guarantee it because I never really looked into it. Should easily be googleable via ATL.) FWIW, their rep in boston is also much higher than their vault rank. By contrast, JD all-in comp is so opaque that there’s literally a thread about it somewhere here where users post data points. Pretty easy to see that it’s way below market.

[WhatIsLaw69]

https://abovethelaw.com/2022/08/jones-d ... jones-day/

I can see being ok with working for JD, even with an aversion to working with a higher % of Trump folks than other firms if they were your only offer. But they aren't. Mintz is a fantastic firm for Boston. The comp between the two will at a minimum be the same. And the exit options from Mintz in Boston are going to be just fine.

Given the choice between the two, I'd choose the firm that isn't profiting off voter suppression, especially if I may want to end up in Boston eventually.

[Sackboy]

Fuck JD (we're grownups, you don't' need to say efff) is fine, but Mintz pays below market bonuses, so comp is going to be a wash. OP has a clear preference for NY for at least the next few years. Might as well go to a strong lit firm that has a stronger national rep (i.e., more portability). Cool that Mintz isn't a random V100 in Boston, but that's not particularly important if OP prefers to be in NY. Also, the politics is just completely immaterial. OP is going to be helping corporations sue other corporations, which OP would be doing at every firm. Bummer that JD has chosen to go with a psycho appellate group, but that's not really OP's problem.

[Anonymous User]

JD NY is not conservative at all - this has been exhaustively covered. The kneejerk JD=MAGA is oversimplified

[Anonymous User]

What's with all these new threads with terrible "JD supports the Orange Tyrant" takes? The firm has 2500+ lawyers. Maybe 15 worked in the Trump administration - mostly in DC and mostly in I&A. The other offices and groups are overwhelmingly liberal, especially New York. As for Andy Lelling, I can't wrap my head around how hiring a former US Attorney with 20+ years of government experience could possibly be viewed in a negative light. You know that AUSAs don't rotate every election cycle, right?

[Anonymous User]

What's with all these new threads with terrible "JD supports the Orange Tyrant" takes? The firm has 2500+ lawyers. Maybe 15 worked in the Trump administration - mostly in DC and mostly in I&A. The other offices and groups are overwhelmingly liberal, especially New York. As for Andy Lelling, I can't wrap my head around how hiring a former US Attorney with 20+ years of government experience could possibly be viewed in a negative light. You know that AUSAs don't rotate every election cycle, right?

I’m the original anon and I’m shocked that the posters in this particular thread are apparently so utterly divorced from reality.

Literally just google it. That’s actually all you have to do. Sorry that facts make you do butthurt.

https://www.abajournal.com/news/article ... nistration

https://www.law360.com/pulse/amp/articles/1392212
(This law360 article is entitled “Jones day is the #1 landing spot for trump-era gov’t officials”)

https://www.law360.com/amp/articles/909513
(This one is called “trump team saw big payday at Jones day, other firms”)

And of course let’s not forget that Jones day was the big law firm that argued on behalf of the gop in one of the highest profile baseless overturn-election lawsuits.

So, no, it doesn’t really matter if a dozen JD associates in nyc voted for Bernie sanders. High level JD is about as much of a maga hotbed as biglaw gets, and those are the people that set the policies. Sorry you hate facts.

[Anonymous User]

I can't believe this is being argued. At my HYS, JD is MAGA hotbed. We were able to see interview screener schedules and not one non-Fed soc adjacent person interviewed with them as far as I can tell. It really doesn't matter how many Joe Schmo's ride their Teslas with a BLM sticker into the JD parking garage. What matters is senior leadership and their choices, not even to mention the general conservative culture of the firm, the experiences of women/POC....

Go to Mintz unless you want to have that association on your resume for the rest of your career.

[Anonymous User]

Mintz then lateral if comp is to be desired. I wouldn't touch JD at all. Below market and just plain weirdos (even if not MAGA-centric).

[Anonymous User]

For instance, OP is looking in boston. Off the top of my head, boston JD office immediately took in trump’s USA for D. Mass before biden even won. Also (albeit not in boston), they took former White House counsel Don MCgahon (I’m sure I butchered that spelling). If I cared enough to spend 5 mins googling more examples I guarantee I could find them.

I know someone at JD Boston. By all accounts, that place is far from being a "MAGA hotbed."

These takes are really tiresome. This isn't the Facebook meme page.

[Anonymous User]

OP here, thanks for all the thoughts everyone, lots to think about. Re: Geography, specifically, does anyone know how flexible JD is with switching offices? E.g. if I wanted to move from New York to Boston in a couple of years, would they be okay with that? Relatedly, is potentially trying to split the summer between their New York and Boston office feasible? What about splitting the summer between JD and Mintz? I know JD allows splits on a case by case basis, but not sure if Mintz does, and I’m not sure if splitting could negatively impact getting an offer after next summer. Is that something to ask before accepting an offer, or after?

[Anonymous User]

For instance, OP is looking in boston. Off the top of my head, boston JD office immediately took in trump’s USA for D. Mass before biden even won. Also (albeit not in boston), they took former White House counsel Don MCgahon (I’m sure I butchered that spelling). If I cared enough to spend 5 mins googling more examples I guarantee I could find them.

I know someone at JD Boston. By all accounts, that place is far from being a "MAGA hotbed."

These takes are really tiresome. This isn't the Facebook meme page.

There’s definitely some serious irony in all these posts from JD sympathizers that blatantly ignore actual facts/data, such as that contained in earlier posts (eg that Jones day was the #1 landing spot for high level trump people), to spout something anecdotal and unsubstantiated about their neighbor’s uncle being in Jones day and not thinking it is a maga hotbed.

Really, anon…is “everybody talking” about how little of a maga hotbed Jones day is?

I’ll stop now but it gave me a chuckle.

Ps how many other vault firms do we think would have taken the GOP’s big lie lawsuit to scotus if given the opportunity? I’ll wait.

[Anonymous User]

I frankly don't understand this obsession with JD's so-called MAGA contingency. I 100% disagree with our former president and think the entire situation leading up to and surrounding his exit from office was dangerous for our democracy, but I also firmly believe that everyone deserves their day in court. Decades ago it was the ACLU/lefties who said even Nazis deserve to be treated fairly, but apparently defending a former president is where we draw the line now.

Let's take the counterfactual - presume that no lawyers were willing to take up Trump's case. Do we really think that would have led to a better result? Absolutely not. It would have just added more fuel to the far right's fire. Better for the majority of Americans to see his arguments play out in court and get shot down, as they should be. And let's say some pathetic no name sap was the only one to take the case, that would further fuel Trump's (astonishingly popular) view that the left has captured the topmost rungs of society, including all the fancy attorneys.

Listen, nobody has to represent a client they disagree with. I would never represent a rapist, and probably wouldn't represent President Trump if he were the last client on earth. But I'm uncomfortable with people trying to take the moral high by praising those who consider some undesirable clients (e.g., actual murderers) worthy of representation while simultaneously shunning those who take others (e.g., the former president). All of the JD attorneys I know who are liberal (hence why anon) take the same view, and I don't understand how that view is so controversial among some.

[Sackboy]

Nobody is denying that JD's 82 person appellate group, half of which is in DC, is a MAGA hotbed. People are disputing that the whole firm of 2,400+ attorneys is a MAGA hotbed. I can't imagine being so dense. I can't believe I'm defending JD, a firm which I generally dislike, because your take is so bad.

[Anonymous User]

For instance, OP is looking in boston. Off the top of my head, boston JD office immediately took in trump’s USA for D. Mass before biden even won. Also (albeit not in boston), they took former White House counsel Don MCgahon (I’m sure I butchered that spelling). If I cared enough to spend 5 mins googling more examples I guarantee I could find them.

I know someone at JD Boston. By all accounts, that place is far from being a "MAGA hotbed."

These takes are really tiresome. This isn't the Facebook meme page.

There’s definitely some serious irony in all these posts from JD sympathizers that blatantly ignore actual facts/data, such as that contained in earlier posts (eg that Jones day was the #1 landing spot for high level trump people), to spout something anecdotal and unsubstantiated about their neighbor’s uncle being in Jones day and not thinking it is a maga hotbed.

Really, anon…is “everybody talking” about how little of a maga hotbed Jones day is?

I’ll stop now but it gave me a chuckle.

Ps how many other vault firms do we think would have taken the GOP’s big lie lawsuit to scotus if given the opportunity? I’ll wait.

The real irony is that you accuse others of ignoring "actual facts/data" while insisting that Jones Day was responsible for the "big lie lawsuit." That's demonstrably false, as a quick Google search would confirm. JD represented the GOP in a challenge to Pennsylvania's last-minute change of its mail-in-ballot rules. If you don't understand why that's different than trying to nullify lawful votes with conspiracy theories, I don't know what to tell you.

[Anonymous User]

As someone who left JD in the last couple years, a had a overall good experience when there, I honestly feel a huge amount of relief that I left when I did. I am not a Republican and was not happy about the firm representing Trump. But that’s not the real issue: the problem is taking on far-right causes and trying to change the law to fit that worldview. If I gave details I would out myself but I think it is absolutely true that firm leadership has a political axe to grind and I don’t see that changing any time soon. And of course JD has the right to do that if it so chooses as much as someone can start a very left firm but it impacts QOL quite a lot if you’re not on board with the agenda.

[Anonymous User]

Nobody is denying that JD's 82 person appellate group, half of which is in DC, is a MAGA hotbed. People are disputing that the whole firm of 2,400+ attorneys is a MAGA hotbed. I can't imagine being so dense. I can't believe I'm defending JD, a firm which I generally dislike, because your take is so bad.

Just to be clear, the take isn’t that Jones Day is literally newsmax. To state something clearly that I thought was implied, Jones Day is a maga hotbed RELATIVE TO ALL OTHER BIGLAW FIRMS. That’s what was meant by the (admittedly) slight hyperbole of “maga hotbed.” It was always meant as a relative notion.

So, to be clear, the take is not that all 2500 people walk around in red hats. The take, backed up by actual facts as well as a few anecdotes on this thread, is that it’s a disproportionate landing spot for fedsoc types, former high level trump people, and the like…once again — relative to other big law firms. Apologies if that was not clear. But fwiw, we all have anecdotes that cut all ways. I had a senior associate buddy, who since went in house, who said that the vibe he felt from the top was much further to the right (and not in a good way) than the other two peer firms he had been at previously. But this particular dude is very liberal.

The thing is I don’t care about that in and of itself. I’ve never applied to Jones day and I’ve never even been across from or adjacent to them in lit.

What shocked, and continues to shock, me is that half of the posters on this thread are so in denial of the undeniable fact that it’s the #1 landing spot for trump people. (Whether there a connection between that and all the lawsuits aimed at them for treating people like garbage I’m honestly not sure.) above posts amounting to something like “the effort to overturn Penn ballots was nbd” and “lelling is just one guy” frankly just don’t seem like great counterpoints when we have actual data cited by multiple articles by law360 among others.

With all of this being said, from what I know about Jones day, if I had to pick Jones day-related gripe to articulate to people choosing firms, this isn’t it. Instead, I’d reiterate what I said way above about their comp. I have absolutely no clue how a firm that’s so under market maintains that vault ranking every year. It’s absolutely baffling, and the only thing I can think is that people don’t know that it’s so under-market.

[Anonymous User]

For instance, OP is looking in boston. Off the top of my head, boston JD office immediately took in trump’s USA for D. Mass before biden even won. Also (albeit not in boston), they took former White House counsel Don MCgahon (I’m sure I butchered that spelling). If I cared enough to spend 5 mins googling more examples I guarantee I could find them.

I know someone at JD Boston. By all accounts, that place is far from being a "MAGA hotbed."

These takes are really tiresome. This isn't the Facebook meme page.

There’s definitely some serious irony in all these posts from JD sympathizers that blatantly ignore actual facts/data, such as that contained in earlier posts (eg that Jones day was the #1 landing spot for high level trump people), to spout something anecdotal and unsubstantiated about their neighbor’s uncle being in Jones day and not thinking it is a maga hotbed.

Really, anon…is “everybody talking” about how little of a maga hotbed Jones day is?

I’ll stop now but it gave me a chuckle.

Ps how many other vault firms do we think would have taken the GOP’s big lie lawsuit to scotus if given the opportunity? I’ll wait.

The real irony is that you accuse others of ignoring "actual facts/data" while insisting that Jones Day was responsible for the "big lie lawsuit." That's demonstrably false, as a quick Google search would confirm. JD represented the GOP in a challenge to Pennsylvania's last-minute change of its mail-in-ballot rules. If you don't understand why that's different than trying to nullify lawful votes with conspiracy theories, I don't know what to tell you.

Just to be clear, are you saying the GOP challenge to the outcome in PA had (a) nothing to do with nullifying votes and (b) was not directly tied to Trump’s cause?

I hate that this thread got derailed, but this has got to be a fucking joke, right?

[Anonymous User]

Nobody is denying that JD's 82 person appellate group, half of which is in DC, is a MAGA hotbed. People are disputing that the whole firm of 2,400+ attorneys is a MAGA hotbed. I can't imagine being so dense. I can't believe I'm defending JD, a firm which I generally dislike, because your take is so bad.

Just to be clear, the take isn’t that Jones Day is literally newsmax. To state something clearly that I thought was implied, Jones Day is a maga hotbed RELATIVE TO ALL OTHER BIGLAW FIRMS. That’s what was meant by the (admittedly) slight hyperbole of “maga hotbed.” It was always meant as a relative notion.

So, to be clear, the take is not that all 2500 people walk around in red hats. The take, backed up by actual facts as well as a few anecdotes on this thread, is that it’s a disproportionate landing spot for fedsoc types, former high level trump people, and the like…once again — relative to other big law firms. Apologies if that was not clear. But fwiw, we all have anecdotes that cut all ways. I had a senior associate buddy, who since went in house, who said that the vibe he felt from the top was much further to the right (and not in a good way) than the other two peer firms he had been at previously. But this particular dude is very liberal.

The thing is I don’t care about that in and of itself. I’ve never applied to Jones day and I’ve never even been across from or adjacent to them in lit.

What shocked, and continues to shock, me is that half of the posters on this thread are so in denial of the undeniable fact that it’s the #1 landing spot for trump people. (Whether there a connection between that and all the lawsuits aimed at them for treating people like garbage I’m honestly not sure.) above posts amounting to something like “the effort to overturn Penn ballots was nbd” and “lelling is just one guy” frankly just don’t seem like great counterpoints when we have actual data cited by multiple articles by law360 among others.

With all of this being said, from what I know about Jones day, if I had to pick Jones day-related gripe to articulate to people choosing firms, this isn’t it. Instead, I’d reiterate what I said way above about their comp. I have absolutely no clue how a firm that’s so under market maintains that vault ranking every year. It’s absolutely baffling, and the only thing I can think is that people don’t know that it’s so under-market.

how undermarket? how does it stack up to the firms still on 205k pay scale

[Anonymous User]

For instance, OP is looking in boston. Off the top of my head, boston JD office immediately took in trump’s USA for D. Mass before biden even won. Also (albeit not in boston), they took former White House counsel Don MCgahon (I’m sure I butchered that spelling). If I cared enough to spend 5 mins googling more examples I guarantee I could find them.

I know someone at JD Boston. By all accounts, that place is far from being a "MAGA hotbed."

These takes are really tiresome. This isn't the Facebook meme page.

There’s definitely some serious irony in all these posts from JD sympathizers that blatantly ignore actual facts/data, such as that contained in earlier posts (eg that Jones day was the #1 landing spot for high level trump people), to spout something anecdotal and unsubstantiated about their neighbor’s uncle being in Jones day and not thinking it is a maga hotbed.

Really, anon…is “everybody talking” about how little of a maga hotbed Jones day is?

I’ll stop now but it gave me a chuckle.

Ps how many other vault firms do we think would have taken the GOP’s big lie lawsuit to scotus if given the opportunity? I’ll wait.

The real irony is that you accuse others of ignoring "actual facts/data" while insisting that Jones Day was responsible for the "big lie lawsuit." That's demonstrably false, as a quick Google search would confirm. JD represented the GOP in a challenge to Pennsylvania's last-minute change of its mail-in-ballot rules. If you don't understand why that's different than trying to nullify lawful votes with conspiracy theories, I don't know what to tell you.

Just to be clear, are you saying the GOP challenge to the outcome in PA had (a) nothing to do with nullifying votes and (b) was not directly tied to Trump’s cause?

I hate that this thread got derailed, but this has got to be a fucking joke, right?

It was a generic election lawsuit challenging last-minute changes to Pennsylvania's voting procedure. Identical lawsuits are filed by Democrats and Republicans literally every election cycle. Not to mention, SCOTUS actually accepted Jones Day's argument and granted the requested stay. That's not comparable to the "big lie" litigation, which involved lawyers making legally frivolous arguments based on fabricated information, resulting in professional if not criminal sanctions.

[Anonymous User]

Just to be clear, the take isn’t that Jones Day is literally newsmax. To state something clearly that I thought was implied, Jones Day is a maga hotbed RELATIVE TO ALL OTHER BIGLAW FIRMS. That’s what was meant by the (admittedly) slight hyperbole of “maga hotbed.” It was always meant as a relative notion.

As you now recognize, you can't say "hotbed" in the same sentence as "relative to other biglaw firms." Hotbed is not a relative term, so using it merely to say that JD has more MAGA sympathizes is just inflammatory. Maybe if the anti-JD folks ITT stopped using such inflammatory and imprecise language we could realize that we all probably agree here. But then again, all's fair in love and anti-TRUMP.