Choosing DC firm, interested in appellate and admin-related litigation Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hey all,

Anon for obvious reasons. I'm currently weighing 2L SA offers from three D.C. firms: Wilmer, Paul Weiss, and Sullivan & Cromwell. I would not have seriously considered the latter two but for the fact that folks from their appellate practices have reached out to me and promised that I'd get a chance to work on substantive matters with their groups both during the summer and beyond. From my conversations with people at Wilmer, it seems like the appellate group there is a bit more siloed, but at the same time, the firm seems stronger in the kind of government-facing litigation the powerhouse D.C. firms are known for (as opposed to merely providing support for NY matters). As I noted in the thread title, in addition to appellate work, I'm interested in agency-related litigation (and maybe white collar, although I don't have enough experience in the area to know for sure).

Another thing I'm weighing is the fact that my personal politics lean left, but the folks who head the appellate groups at PW and S&C have conservative credentials. Conversely, I understand Wilmer to be something of a "revolving door" with Democratic administrations.

Thanks in advance for any insight you can provide.

[Anonymous User]

Hey all,

Anon for obvious reasons. I'm currently weighing 2L SA offers from three D.C. firms: Wilmer, Paul Weiss, and Sullivan & Cromwell. I would not have seriously considered the latter two but for the fact that folks from their appellate practices have reached out to me and promised that I'd get a chance to work on substantive matters with their groups both during the summer and beyond. From my conversations with people at Wilmer, it seems like the appellate group there is a bit more siloed, but at the same time, the firm seems stronger in the kind of government-facing litigation the powerhouse D.C. firms are known for (as opposed to merely providing support for NY matters). As I noted in the thread title, in addition to appellate work, I'm interested in agency-related litigation (and maybe white collar, although I don't have enough experience in the area to know for sure).

Another thing I'm weighing is the fact that my personal politics lean left, but the folks who head the appellate groups at PW and S&C have conservative credentials. Conversely, I understand Wilmer to be something of a "revolving door" with Democratic administrations.

Thanks in advance for any insight you can provide.

You can't go wrong with any choice but I would do Wilmer only because at Wilmer DC you won't be in a satellite office and Wilmer DC probably has a slight edge in terms of DC government revolving door .

At any of the three firms, I'm not sure how much substantive appellate litigation experience you'd get as a summer or junior. I would try to find people from those firms who are interested in appellate and ask how much they were able to do as summers/juniors. The partners are trying to sell you on their respective firms and you should take their representations with a grain of salt. Talk to people who have no skin in the game so you get candid answers.

With respect to political ideology, Kannon Shanmugam is conservative and the main S&C appellate folks might be too, but at the end of the day wherever you go is still biglaw: the clients will mostly be big corporations and you'll be advancing arguments that are in the interest of big corporations. So, if you're lefty in the Bernie Sanders sense then get out of biglaw entirely. If you're a neoliberal Obama/Clinton type, then all three are basically equally acceptable. Neither Paul Weiss or S&C will ever take on some socially conservative cause (anti-abortion, pro-guns, anti-LGBT, etc.) because it would be professional suicide.

[Anonymous User]

Another thing I'm weighing is the fact that my personal politics lean left, but the folks who head the appellate groups at PW and S&C have conservative credentials. Conversely, I understand Wilmer to be something of a "revolving door" with Democratic administrations.

There are certainly some conservatives in WH appellate, but overall it leans left. I know a couple conservatives who were VERY happy in the S&C appellate group, but I don't know how much politics played into it.

Why not ask WH directly rather than online? It can't hurt.

[Anonymous User]

It’s so hard to get appellate that if Kannon Shanmugam and Jeff Wall are saying you can work for them, you’d be a fool to turn it down without comparable assurances from Wilmer imo. And if you have the creds to pull appellate you’re going to be clerking and potentially re-recruiting anyway. If you end up wanting to do regulatory lit you won’t have any problems getting attractive offers in it.

(Fwiw I was a 2L appellate SA at a peer firm to these.)

[Anonymous User]

It’s so hard to get appellate that if Kannon Shanmugam and Jeff Wall are saying you can work for them, you’d be a fool to turn it down without comparable assurances from Wilmer imo. And if you have the creds to pull appellate you’re going to be clerking and potentially re-recruiting anyway. If you end up wanting to do regulatory lit you won’t have any problems getting attractive offers in it.

(Fwiw I was a 2L appellate SA at a peer firm to these.)

In what universe would Kannon Shanmugam or Jeff Wall be so enamored with a rising 2L that they promise to work closely with that person on appellate matters during the summer and "beyond"? In recruiting, the firms always tell you what you want to hear so that you accept, and then when you show up as a first year you're just a faceless junior who fades into the masses like everyone else. Why would appellate be different?

[Anonymous User]

Another thing I'm weighing is the fact that my personal politics lean left, but the folks who head the appellate groups at PW and S&C have conservative credentials. Conversely, I understand Wilmer to be something of a "revolving door" with Democratic administrations.

There are certainly some conservatives in WH appellate, but overall it leans left. I know a couple conservatives who were VERY happy in the S&C appellate group, but I don't know how much politics played into it.

Why not ask WH directly rather than online? It can't hurt.

What made them happy there?

[Anonymous User]

It’s so hard to get appellate that if Kannon Shanmugam and Jeff Wall are saying you can work for them, you’d be a fool to turn it down without comparable assurances from Wilmer imo. And if you have the creds to pull appellate you’re going to be clerking and potentially re-recruiting anyway. If you end up wanting to do regulatory lit you won’t have any problems getting attractive offers in it.

(Fwiw I was a 2L appellate SA at a peer firm to these.)

In what universe would Kannon Shanmugam or Jeff Wall be so enamored with a rising 2L that they promise to work closely with that person on appellate matters during the summer and "beyond"? In recruiting, the firms always tell you what you want to hear so that you accept, and then when you show up as a first year you're just a faceless junior who fades into the masses like everyone else. Why would appellate be different?

The number of summers specifically recruited for appellate is tiny, and I know that at least Kannon is heavily involved in PW’s summer appellate program. Also chances are nobody who does an appellate 2L SA will go in as a generic first year, most of the people I know who have done it have had not just realistic chances at clerking, but realistic chances at SCOTUS. If OP has a not particularly special resume that’s maybe a red flag, but I assume they do with two top appellate practices recruiting them.

[Anonymous User]

It’s so hard to get appellate that if Kannon Shanmugam and Jeff Wall are saying you can work for them, you’d be a fool to turn it down without comparable assurances from Wilmer imo. And if you have the creds to pull appellate you’re going to be clerking and potentially re-recruiting anyway. If you end up wanting to do regulatory lit you won’t have any problems getting attractive offers in it.

(Fwiw I was a 2L appellate SA at a peer firm to these.)

In what universe would Kannon Shanmugam or Jeff Wall be so enamored with a rising 2L that they promise to work closely with that person on appellate matters during the summer and "beyond"? In recruiting, the firms always tell you what you want to hear so that you accept, and then when you show up as a first year you're just a faceless junior who fades into the masses like everyone else. Why would appellate be different?

The number of summers specifically recruited for appellate is tiny, and I know that at least Kannon is heavily involved in PW’s summer appellate program. Also nobody who does an appellate 2L SA will go in as a first year, most of the people I know who have done it have had not just realistic chances at clerking, but realistic chances at SCOTUS.

How can aptitude for elite appellate practice even be ascertained based on a rising 2L's application? You get straight Hs in your second semester at Yale and graduated summa from a fancy undergrad school?

[Anonymous User]

OP here - don’t want to respond to specific comments in case I dox myself but I’m reading everyone’s thoughts and they’re very helpful. Thank you all.

[Anonymous User]

It’s so hard to get appellate that if Kannon Shanmugam and Jeff Wall are saying you can work for them, you’d be a fool to turn it down without comparable assurances from Wilmer imo. And if you have the creds to pull appellate you’re going to be clerking and potentially re-recruiting anyway. If you end up wanting to do regulatory lit you won’t have any problems getting attractive offers in it.

(Fwiw I was a 2L appellate SA at a peer firm to these.)

In what universe would Kannon Shanmugam or Jeff Wall be so enamored with a rising 2L that they promise to work closely with that person on appellate matters during the summer and "beyond"? In recruiting, the firms always tell you what you want to hear so that you accept, and then when you show up as a first year you're just a faceless junior who fades into the masses like everyone else. Why would appellate be different?

The number of summers specifically recruited for appellate is tiny, and I know that at least Kannon is heavily involved in PW’s summer appellate program. Also nobody who does an appellate 2L SA will go in as a first year, most of the people I know who have done it have had not just realistic chances at clerking, but realistic chances at SCOTUS.

How can aptitude for elite appellate practice even be ascertained based on a rising 2L's application? You get straight Hs in your second semester at Yale and graduated summa from a fancy undergrad school?

Yes, or equivalent, plus conservatives who already have feeder clerkships by the time of OCI.

[Anonymous User]

In a similar camp to you OP. What did you end up choosing?

[Anonymous User]

if the firm promises you you'll be on the appellate group I think you can reasonably count on that.

I would not count on a promise that you'll develop a personal relationship with Kannon Shanmugam or Jeff Wall.

that seems silly to me. you can be the brightest, most special summer intern in the world on track for SCOTUS inasmuch as anyone can be, but ... you are a summer intern and Kannon is working with, on a daily basis, people who are not 'on track' for that, but *actually did clerk (or almost clerk) for SCOTUS*?

I work at a firm that's discussed on here one of, if the not the, most selective/fancy/whatever. we have a small class, and all of our summers have amazing paper resumes. several will no doubt be clerking for the Supreme Court at some point in the future.

none of them are going to be 'remembered'/get special promises by partners - because the *actual associates working with our partners were those summers several years ago*. there's no 'wow factor

now I don't work at PW or S&C DC so maybe KS/JW have a longstanding tradition of picking one person and mentoring them or something? or maybe there are only a tiny handful of summers to PW DC or S&C DC and they're very small offices?

but generally this doesn't make much sense to me

[Anonymous User]

In a similar camp to you OP. What did you end up choosing?

OP here. I don't want to give out too much info, but I chose one of S&C or PW ultimately.

[2013]

In a similar camp to you OP. What did you end up choosing?

OP here. I don't want to give out too much info, but I chose one of S&C or PW ultimately.

That Vault ranking pull was too strong!

[Joachim2017]

How can aptitude for elite appellate practice even be ascertained based on a rising 2L's application? You get straight Hs in your second semester at Yale and graduated summa from a fancy undergrad school?

Yes, actually: via proxy. Straight Hs/many DSs as a 1L at H/Y will land you on a track to feeders/SCOTUS, which is a proxy for elite appellate practice. Seen it happen firsthand for certain rising 2Ls.

[Anonymous User]

You will have to clerk no matter what, likely for at least 2 years so who cares? Just go where you like the people the most…it’s always funny to me when 2Ls are wondering which firms are the best revolving door to government.