Least "fratty"/forced social NY firms? Forum

[Anonymous User]

At a "fratty"/very social/into internal networking firm for my 1L SA. Absolutely hate it--I've managed to get a lot of work, but I somehow got pigeonholed as a Westlaw monkey and fucking hate it. The other SAs seem to have much less work but are somehow going to see motion practice, etc all the time while I'm stuck doing YET ANOTHER BS RESEARCH PROJECT. I'm increasingly convinced it's because the firm really stresses constantly going out to get lunch/coffee with the associates, which is something I feel really awkward asking to do and thus rarely attempt. I have the sense that that's also how you get work at this firm as a young associate, and that I would fucking hate working here FT.

What major NY (or California, interested in both) firms don't require you to do this shit and are achievable from median at Y/S? I presume the appellate firms are a bit more introverted, but I don't have the credentials for those. What firms should I avoid? I assume Kirkland/Skadden are both bad picks from what I've read on here.

Edit: Also, given my increasing distaste for research (though I like the other elements of lit), how would the major consulting firms be on this point? They recruit from us and I did well with case study interviews in UG, so I could study up for those and try that path, though that would most likely be a post-2L SA play. IDK, this whole experience is really turning me off from practicing law and I'm starting to think I would end up booking it out of a firm quickly if they're all like that.

Edit 2: I should clarify: I'm not opposed to socializing but I hate doing networking, especially if its internal. It just feels extremely fake to me.

[Anonymous User]

A few thoughts:

1. I'm extremely confused that you want to work on motion practice but don't want to do legal research. What exactly do you think motion practice entails? Being a "Westlaw monkey" is just being a litigator, so if you hate it that much, private-practice litigation is probably not a good fit for you. (And you would hate appellate.) There are some less writing-intensive litigation roles outside of biglaw, e.g. being a DA or PD. But it sounds like your future may be in a transactional practice.

2. Being busy as a summer is good, and more likely than not means that the attorneys feeding you work think your work is good. Firms don't give work to people to punish them for being antisocial, get a grip.

3. You should go out to lunch with associates. It's free food and you need to learn how to socialize with lawyers at some point, they're not going to bite. SA lunches are also not really "networking," and you should not approach them as if they are. There are no law firms where it is normal not to socialize with your colleagues.

[Anonymous User]

There is far more pressure on summers to socialize than there is on associates. So your problem might resolve itself with time.

[Anonymous User]

If you hate research and being a "westlaw monkey" that much consider going into corporate.

Also, you need to learn how to fake internal or external networking and interpersonal relations to some extent. What makes you think major consulting firms would have less of a networking component?

[Anonymous User]

Agree with the move that it doesn't sound like you'll like being a litigator (particularly a junior/midlevel litigator) so you may want to consider corporate or a non-legal job (as it sounds like you are contemplating). I don't think your unhappiness has anything to do with how social your current firm is.

As an aside, what does median at a place like YLS mean after 1L? You've had one semester of "grades" and no ranking. So, like, you received 1 P and 3Hs as opposed to all Hs or something? I've done hiring for a long time at my V10 and have never heard anyone refer to median at Yale or Stanford.

[Anonymous User]

Agree with the move that it doesn't sound like you'll like being a litigator (particularly a junior/midlevel litigator) so you may want to consider corporate or a non-legal job (as it sounds like you are contemplating). I don't think your unhappiness has anything to do with how social your current firm is.

As an aside, what does median at a place like YLS mean after 1L? You've had one semester of "grades" and no ranking. So, like, you received 1 P and 3Hs as opposed to all Hs or something? I've done hiring for a long time at my V10 and have never heard anyone refer to median at Yale or Stanford.

I've heard people who have roughly half Hs and half Ps and Y/S refer to themselves as median.

[Anonymous User]

Davis Polk is fairly introverted compared to NYC firms and is achievable as median from Y/S

[Anonymous User]

Agree with the move that it doesn't sound like you'll like being a litigator (particularly a junior/midlevel litigator) so you may want to consider corporate or a non-legal job (as it sounds like you are contemplating). I don't think your unhappiness has anything to do with how social your current firm is.

As an aside, what does median at a place like YLS mean after 1L? You've had one semester of "grades" and no ranking. So, like, you received 1 P and 3Hs as opposed to all Hs or something? I've done hiring for a long time at my V10 and have never heard anyone refer to median at Yale or Stanford.

I've heard people who have roughly half Hs and half Ps and Y/S refer to themselves as median.

IDK about Y, but @ SLS, 6Hs is about the cutoff for top third. Median's 3-4 (-5 if you get 2 in Fed Lit).

[Anonymous User]

S&C

[Anonymous User]

OP, do you just hate doing research or do you hate doing research when others get to do other kinds of work? I realize it’s probably mostly the former but wasn’t sure how much of it had to do with feeling shunted aside, so to speak. Going to see motions practice isn’t really contributing a product, so you’re probably doing research because you’ve done a good job doing research for people.

Otherwise basically agree with others - if you hate being a Westlaw monkey you probably won’t enjoy lit, and I’m not sure why you think consulting won’t require the same kind of social angle you hate.

As for the summer (to the extent any of it is left), are there any other summers you can join up with for coffee/lunch with associates? If you feel awkward asking, can you ride other summers’ coattails? (I get feeling awkward, I hate stuff like that too, but keep in mind that everyone knows that’s how it’s supposed to work so no one will find it weird that you ask. Plenty of associates will welcome getting their food paid for. And if someone says no it’s likely because they’re genuinely busy, nothing more.)

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Not sure why you want consulting when you could just switch to a corporate / transactional practice. The latter is an easy switch whereas MBB would be a major reach

[Anonymous User]

I second DPW. Subdued personalities and centralized staffing.

[Anonymous User]

S&C

Tru on personality but probably not quite achievable from median though

[Anonymous User]

S&C

Tru on personality but probably not quite achievable from median though

Grades data says they hire to median (though they have a significantly higher 50th percentile than any non-WLRK V10)

[Anonymous User]

I worked at an MBB before law school. Consulting firms probably have a much more extroverted culture than law firms: you're with your case team pretty much 24/7 during the week, if you have to travel to the client site, and most firms place a lot of emphasis on people coming into the office on Fridays to socialize. And while staffing is generally less "free market" than most law firms, you do still need to network with managers and partners if you want to get on particular cases. I also generally find the work less interesting (would you rather be a Powerpoint monkey instead of a Word monkey?), although if you like depositions/internal investigations, etc. there's some parallel to doing lots of internal interviews at the client site.

Like others in this thread, I'm not really sure what is rubbing you the wrong way. Consulting, particularly as you get more senior, is much more of a "people management" and sales job: building trust with clients, running effective meetings, and cutting through bureaucracy in large organizations. (That's somewhat less true in groups like private equity, where you're running due diligence, but is still a big factor if you want to stick around for a while).

If you just don't like the free market staffing system at your law firm, look for firms that have a centralized staffing function, but in my experience, you'll still need to build relationships with partners if you want to get on particular cases.

[Anonymous User]

Hey all. Much less saddrunk OP here. A few clarifications.

1. I don't actually hate research, I hate that I was quickly pigeonholed into only doing research. I had some interesting non-research projects (mostly internal investigations work) but that work was a miniscule proportion of my time. I was told by a few people on my floor that I've developed a rep as the research guy, which I think helps explain that.

2. I also don't really want a place where people are subdued. I'm really not subdued and in more academic environments have had a tendency to rub quieter people the wrong way because I present as, and I quote "very fratty" or "obviously extroverted." I've always been told to do litigation in part because I'm not subdued and have a personality. What I don't like is having this pressure to play fake-nice and spend all your time going out to lunch with attorneys when I want to get a sense of the day-to-day work. (Perhaps tellingly, this is why I despised rushing my frat even though I enjoyed my time in it). In my experience, the best way to get a sense of the work is to actually do it, and the lunches really seem like a distraction--unless we're discussing the parameters of an assignment. Otherwise it feels like a waste of everyone's time when we all could be doing something more productive.

3. I also wouldn't be interested in most corporate work since it's it's too implementation-based. I was a cap markets banker before law school and hated it because basically everything our group did was "client wants X, what's the most efficient way to do X" rather than actually making serious decisions about strategy. I've gotten the sense from this board and transactional projects that they're much more functionary by nature and trying to figure out the best way to do what the clients want, while litigation is much more in the lawyers' hands.

4. That said, I like business and looking under the hood--I think the most interesting work I did all summer was the internal investigations project I mentioned above, in part because we were trying to figure out if this business model was even legal and so had to do a deep dive into how it worked. I also like thinking about business ideas/startup ideas far more than legal ones in my free time. It's to the point where I've had multiple friends from different parts of my life speculate on how long I'll actually be an attorney for (going figure is 3 years, if you're curious). As such I think consulting might just be a better fit--I'd have to scrape off the rust of my modeling skills but it's like a bike right? From the outside at least it seems like consultants are a bigger value add than lawyers outside of litigation and that the work seems more varied and interesting.

Whoever it was who said that this may just be a product of the summer experience, you're probably right. I'm already sick and tired of school/interning again and just want to be back working as an adult already.

[Anonymous User]

As others have said, litigation = Westlaw monkey, so you probably shouldn’t do that. Corporate law + consulting = lots of social interaction, so you may not want to do that either. Honestly not sure if anything would make you happy lol. What DO you want to do?

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Hey all. Much less saddrunk OP here. A few clarifications.

1. I don't actually hate research, I hate that I was quickly pigeonholed into only doing research. I had some interesting non-research projects (mostly internal investigations work) but that work was a miniscule proportion of my time. I was told by a few people on my floor that I've developed a rep as the research guy, which I think helps explain that.

2. I also don't really want a place where people are subdued. I'm really not subdued and in more academic environments have had a tendency to rub quieter people the wrong way because I present as, and I quote "very fratty" or "obviously extroverted." I've always been told to do litigation in part because I'm not subdued and have a personality. What I don't like is having this pressure to play fake-nice and spend all your time going out to lunch with attorneys when I want to get a sense of the day-to-day work. (Perhaps tellingly, this is why I despised rushing my frat even though I enjoyed my time in it). In my experience, the best way to get a sense of the work is to actually do it, and the lunches really seem like a distraction--unless we're discussing the parameters of an assignment. Otherwise it feels like a waste of everyone's time when we all could be doing something more productive.

3. I also wouldn't be interested in most corporate work since it's it's too implementation-based. I was a cap markets banker before law school and hated it because basically everything our group did was "client wants X, what's the most efficient way to do X" rather than actually making serious decisions about strategy. I've gotten the sense from this board and transactional projects that they're much more functionary by nature and trying to figure out the best way to do what the clients want, while litigation is much more in the lawyers' hands.

4. That said, I like business and looking under the hood--I think the most interesting work I did all summer was the internal investigations project I mentioned above, in part because we were trying to figure out if this business model was even legal and so had to do a deep dive into how it worked. I also like thinking about business ideas/startup ideas far more than legal ones in my free time. It's to the point where I've had multiple friends from different parts of my life speculate on how long I'll actually be an attorney for (going figure is 3 years, if you're curious). As such I think consulting might just be a better fit--I'd have to scrape off the rust of my modeling skills but it's like a bike right? From the outside at least it seems like consultants are a bigger value add than lawyers outside of litigation and that the work seems more varied and interesting.

Whoever it was who said that this may just be a product of the summer experience, you're probably right. I'm already sick and tired of school/interning again and just want to be back working as an adult already.

You just have to pick a job and do it, then will eventually graduate to more interesting work. If you had stuck around banking to be more than an analyst, it would have gotten more interesting eventually. And now you’re jumping ship from law because you don’t want to do entry level legal work.

I feel your pain, but try sticking with law and seeing how it goes. You’re searching for a unicorn job that is high paying and where you get to do interesting, strategic, impactful work on day one.

[OPM]

Hey all. Much less saddrunk OP here. A few clarifications.

1. I don't actually hate research, I hate that I was quickly pigeonholed into only doing research. I had some interesting non-research projects (mostly internal investigations work) but that work was a miniscule proportion of my time. I was told by a few people on my floor that I've developed a rep as the research guy, which I think helps explain that.

2. I also don't really want a place where people are subdued. I'm really not subdued and in more academic environments have had a tendency to rub quieter people the wrong way because I present as, and I quote "very fratty" or "obviously extroverted." I've always been told to do litigation in part because I'm not subdued and have a personality. What I don't like is having this pressure to play fake-nice and spend all your time going out to lunch with attorneys when I want to get a sense of the day-to-day work. (Perhaps tellingly, this is why I despised rushing my frat even though I enjoyed my time in it). In my experience, the best way to get a sense of the work is to actually do it, and the lunches really seem like a distraction--unless we're discussing the parameters of an assignment. Otherwise it feels like a waste of everyone's time when we all could be doing something more productive.

3. I also wouldn't be interested in most corporate work since it's it's too implementation-based. I was a cap markets banker before law school and hated it because basically everything our group did was "client wants X, what's the most efficient way to do X" rather than actually making serious decisions about strategy. I've gotten the sense from this board and transactional projects that they're much more functionary by nature and trying to figure out the best way to do what the clients want, while litigation is much more in the lawyers' hands.

4. That said, I like business and looking under the hood--I think the most interesting work I did all summer was the internal investigations project I mentioned above, in part because we were trying to figure out if this business model was even legal and so had to do a deep dive into how it worked. I also like thinking about business ideas/startup ideas far more than legal ones in my free time. It's to the point where I've had multiple friends from different parts of my life speculate on how long I'll actually be an attorney for (going figure is 3 years, if you're curious). As such I think consulting might just be a better fit--I'd have to scrape off the rust of my modeling skills but it's like a bike right? From the outside at least it seems like consultants are a bigger value add than lawyers outside of litigation and that the work seems more varied and interesting.

Whoever it was who said that this may just be a product of the summer experience, you're probably right. I'm already sick and tired of school/interning again and just want to be back working as an adult already.

You just have to pick a job and do it, then will eventually graduate to more interesting work. If you had stuck around banking to be more than an analyst, it would have gotten more interesting eventually. And now you’re jumping ship from law because you don’t want to do entry level legal work.

I feel your pain, but try sticking with law and seeing how it goes. You’re searching for a unicorn job that is high paying and where you get to do interesting, strategic, impactful work on day one.

I feel the pain here too; I was also a banker -> law transplant because I wanted to avoid the bullshit and do more interesting stuff. Res Ipsa is generally right that sticking it out will lead to better work in the long term.

If you’re less willing to do that, it is possible to skip some of these steps. I managed to get one of those “unicorn” jobs where I feel like everything I do is pretty interesting and high value. I work in DC lit, doing a mix of appellate and regulatory / investigations at one of the more selective firms. I did clerk for feeder judges, and was like top 15%. But it is attainable—go out and kill your next year and from Y/S, you’ll be in a much better position to get better work and be treated as more of a person than at a volume NY shop.

PS — based on what you’re saying here, I think the experience will be worse for you in transactional from an “interesting work” perspective. And consulting or banking are far more social and based on connections and soft skills; there’s less differentiation in hard work product and so success is more dictated by the soft stuff.

[Anonymous User]

I am not someone that inherently enjoys networking style talk either, but I think maybe try to strike a better balance between empathy and living primarily in your own thoughts, unless you plan to leave service-side white collar work entirely (which may be what makes you happiest).

E.g., you loath the idea of getting coffee to talk to or get to know a colleague, but how else is anyone senior to you or with staffing responsibilities going to know that you feel miserable and have interests outside of what you've gotten to do to date?

It seems like you have elements that are necessary for you. You have to pursue them. Even at a relatively introverted firm (like my own), unless you want to roll with the tide and hope you serendipitously get staffed on the right projects and impress the right people for more work, you need to aggressively advocate for yourself.

[Anonymous User]

You're completely underestimating the amount of networking required at MBB. Frankly it's far more important in MBB compared to the vast majority of law firms.

[Anonymous User]

you loath the idea of getting coffee to talk to or get to know a colleague, but how else is anyone senior to you or with staffing responsibilities going to know that you feel miserable and have interests outside of what you've gotten to do to date?

I want to be clear that I don't loathe the idea of getting coffee with a colleague--I loathe the idea of interrupting someone else to grab coffee/lunch with them (it's funny, I remember my first internship back in HS was at a tax think tank and I would be very aggressive in asking for work/to get to known people around the office, and one time I got screamed at for daring to come and ask for work when the VP was "obviously busy" even though he didn't seem it). Like I don't mind getting coffee with people I mind the onus being put on me to gauge if the other associates are busy and asking them instead of the other way around. I've never been a big one to grab lunch/dinner with people anyway, even my friends, so like its very odd to me.

[Anonymous User]

you loath the idea of getting coffee to talk to or get to know a colleague, but how else is anyone senior to you or with staffing responsibilities going to know that you feel miserable and have interests outside of what you've gotten to do to date?

I want to be clear that I don't loathe the idea of getting coffee with a colleague--I loathe the idea of interrupting someone else to grab coffee/lunch with them (it's funny, I remember my first internship back in HS was at a tax think tank and I would be very aggressive in asking for work/to get to known people around the office, and one time I got screamed at for daring to come and ask for work when the VP was "obviously busy" even though he didn't seem it). Like I don't mind getting coffee with people I mind the onus being put on me to gauge if the other associates are busy and asking them instead of the other way around. I've never been a big one to grab lunch/dinner with people anyway, even my friends, so like its very odd to me.

So a VP screaming at a HS intern for interrupting them is just an asshole - perfectly fine to say no, not fine to yell at a teenager. I get not wanting to interrupt people b/c of it, but it is understood to be part of the summer experience and people will just say no if busy. You can always e-mail to find out a good time for the the other person rather than literally stopping by and saying "wanna get lunch now?" And then use it as a time to find out about the work you think is more interesting - what it actually entails and the best way to get staffed on it.

(I also doubt that people get work the firm by going out to lunch/coffee with colleagues - that's usually very much a summer thing, people are too busy for work assignments to be based on going out to lunch/coffee. If there isn't a centralized work assignment system you will have to scrounge for work on your own, but it won't be so directly connected to socializing.)

[Anonymous User]

"client wants X, what's the most efficient way to do X"

This is MBB in a nutshell though...

...but sounds like you'd prefer "actual" business-adjacent roles (CorpDev, BizOps, etc), in which case MBB would be immensely helpful for exit to those roles

[Anonymous User]

Sounds like you might like internal investigations, which for better or for worse has less research and writing than typical lit. Though I’m not sure what the exit from that would be if you aren’t interested in moving into prosecution/defense. Maybe in-house compliance or something.