DPW & Latham Billable Hours Forum

[Anonymous User]

Anyone who works or worked at either of these firms know the billable hour expectation? I am interested in M&A and Tech Transactions is that makes a difference.

[Anonymous User]

Do keep in mind that this is 2005 data.

It’s a shame that nobody systematically collects or publishes billables data in the modern era. I suppose you can back into some rough estimates using RPL, but that’s fairly inexact.

[Anonymous User]

LW is 1,900 per year.

[Anonymous User]

LW is 1,900 per year.

How can anyone post this unironically

[Anonymous User]

I work at a brutal firm (a peer to LW and DPW) and my friend at Latham works more than I do. I wouldn’t assume the hours worked at LW vs. at DPW would differ substantially. Make your decision based on something else, not this.

[Anonymous User]

Latham junior here, 1900 is the billable hour requirement but your hours will ultimately depend on your group, who you work with, and will still fluctuate depending on the year. You’re expected to be working around the same pace as your group so the firm requirement is less significant. Also the anecdote of one friend working really long hours is never helpful because we all know there is a wide distribution in classes and I know plenty of people at comparable working way worse hours than me.

Last year, corporate groups billed a higher than average amount, believe the average billables was just under 2200 for corporate (note that this includes people billing 1900 and people billing 3000). This year corporate is very slow and everyone is enjoying life.

When choosing firms at this level, I personally wouldn’t consider hours expected to work outside of like WLRK and CSM.

[Sackboy]

When choosing firms at this level, I personally wouldn’t consider hours expected to work outside of like WLRK and CSM.

There really is no evidence that CSM attorneys are working any harder than any other generic V10. If that were the cases, their RPL would be much higher.

[Anonymous User]

When choosing firms at this level, I personally wouldn’t consider hours expected to work outside of like WLRK and CSM.

There really is no evidence that CSM attorneys are working any harder than any other generic V10. If that were the cases, their RPL would be much higher.

Maybe everyone I know there is an outlier, but everyone I know at CSM works significantly more than their counterparts at peer firms. I also know several people there with whom we’ve discussed this point and i haven’t heard of anyone coasting like you can get away with at other firms for a bit.

[Sackboy]

When choosing firms at this level, I personally wouldn’t consider hours expected to work outside of like WLRK and CSM.

There really is no evidence that CSM attorneys are working any harder than any other generic V10. If that were the cases, their RPL would be much higher.

Maybe everyone I know there is an outlier, but everyone I know at CSM works significantly more than their counterparts at peer firms. I also know several people there with whom we’ve discussed this point and i haven’t heard of anyone coasting like you can get away with at other firms for a bit.

At some point, the math doesn't add up. If CSM charges the same rates as the V10 and has relatively the same RPL, then the hours are going to need to, on average, be the same. I'm also sure CSM coasters aren't interested in making themselves known.

[Anonymous User]

When choosing firms at this level, I personally wouldn’t consider hours expected to work outside of like WLRK and CSM.

There really is no evidence that CSM attorneys are working any harder than any other generic V10. If that were the cases, their RPL would be much higher.

Maybe everyone I know there is an outlier, but everyone I know at CSM works significantly more than their counterparts at peer firms. I also know several people there with whom we’ve discussed this point and i haven’t heard of anyone coasting like you can get away with at other firms for a bit.

At some point, the math doesn't add up. If CSM charges the same rates as the V10 and has relatively the same RPL, then the hours are going to need to, on average, be the same. I'm also sure CSM coasters aren't interested in making themselves known.

Spitballing here but I think the discrepancy might be because CSM doesn't hire laterals. By definition they will have fewer seniors, who bill more than juniors. So, if they have similar RPL to other firms that bill at similar rates, the juniors must be working more hours to be as profitable as seniors in other firms.

[nealric]

At any given firm, there's going to be a fairly wide gulf between the highest and lowest billing lawyers. Hours may depend on their practice group, the partners they work for, their preferences, the economic cycle, how well they are regarded in the group, and any number of intangibles. There's going to be hardcore grinders/gunners churning out well over 3,000 and there's going to be relative slackers doing under 1,500. You can often decide which you want to be, but the 3,000 hr gunner is probably going to burn out and the slacker is probably going to be pushed out if they keep it up for long.

I don't think you can use hours as a means for choosing between firms in similar market positions.

[Anonymous User]

At some point, the math doesn't add up. If CSM charges the same rates as the V10 and has relatively the same RPL, then the hours are going to need to, on average, be the same. I'm also sure CSM coasters aren't interested in making themselves known.

Spitballing here but I think the discrepancy might be because CSM doesn't hire laterals. By definition they will have fewer seniors, who bill more than juniors. So, if they have similar RPL to other firms that bill at similar rates, the juniors must be working more hours to be as profitable as seniors in other firms.

Bingo. RPL = average hours/lawyer * average billing rate. If you're bottom heavy (as you'd need to be, to go from starting classes of ~80 to up or out at year 8 and making up 12 partners), the average billing rate is going to be lower. So it's not surprising that 2022 saw a bit of a jump in Cravath's RPL (28%) after - at least anecdotally - CSM bolstered its "senior attorney" ranks in a significant way.

(It also tracks that K&E's RPL is so high, since calling seventh year associates "partner" justifies a jump in chargeout rate with some clients.)

[Anonymous User]

this is entirely anecdotal but have heard ex-CSM associates complain bitterly of significant hours discrepancies between among associates, and that being a motivating force for them leaving firm entirely. "I bill 2800+ and XYZ bills 1400, we get paid the same, and nothing happens" etc

have never worked there though

[Moneytrees]

this is entirely anecdotal but have heard ex-CSM associates complain bitterly of significant hours discrepancies between among associates, and that being a motivating force for them leaving firm entirely. "I bill 2800+ and XYZ bills 1400, we get paid the same, and nothing happens" etc

have never worked there though

The notion that Cravath attorneys are working materially more than any other V10 outside of Wachtell is ludicrous.

[Anonymous User]

At some point, the math doesn't add up. If CSM charges the same rates as the V10 and has relatively the same RPL, then the hours are going to need to, on average, be the same. I'm also sure CSM coasters aren't interested in making themselves known.

Spitballing here but I think the discrepancy might be because CSM doesn't hire laterals. By definition they will have fewer seniors, who bill more than juniors. So, if they have similar RPL to other firms that bill at similar rates, the juniors must be working more hours to be as profitable as seniors in other firms.

Bingo. RPL = average hours/lawyer * average billing rate. If you're bottom heavy (as you'd need to be, to go from starting classes of ~80 to up or out at year 8 and making up 12 partners), the average billing rate is going to be lower. So it's not surprising that 2022 saw a bit of a jump in Cravath's RPL (28%) after - at least anecdotally - CSM bolstered its "senior attorney" ranks in a significant way.

(It also tracks that K&E's RPL is so high, since calling seventh year associates "partner" justifies a jump in chargeout rate with some clients.)

K&E also hires a ton of laterals, so they are probably more mid/senior heavy than peer firms.

[Anonymous User]

Latham junior here, 1900 is the billable hour requirement but your hours will ultimately depend on your group, who you work with, and will still fluctuate depending on the year. You’re expected to be working around the same pace as your group so the firm requirement is less significant. Also the anecdote of one friend working really long hours is never helpful because we all know there is a wide distribution in classes and I know plenty of people at comparable working way worse hours than me.

Last year, corporate groups billed a higher than average amount, believe the average billables was just under 2200 for corporate (note that this includes people billing 1900 and people billing 3000). This year corporate is very slow and everyone is enjoying life.

When choosing firms at this level, I personally wouldn’t consider hours expected to work outside of like WLRK and CSM.

I'm a recent lateral at Latham and am curious what the corporate mid-levels and senior folks in the bigger offices are billing. There's a good chance I may not even make 1900 this year -- how bad is that?