Should I try to change firms, or do all firms kinda suck? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Rising 2L in the last week of my SA program. I don’t love my firm. I like the work, and the hours seem comparatively bearable (but not great—it’s biglaw, after all), but I’m not very happy here. The office has a definitive sexism problem that I don’t think will be resolved any time soon. For example, when I’ve gotten good reviews on work, the associates in my group have said that it’s only because I’m an “attractive female”; women attorneys are mimicked with squeaky voices; I’ve been told that I look too “soft” to handle my practice group, etc. It’s only a few bad apples who perpetuate this behavior, but my practice group is very small (think 8-10 people), so I’m around it pretty constantly, and it honestly sucks.

I’ve been thinking about trying to change firms, but I’m hesitant to leave when it may be just as bad elsewhere. How common is stuff like this? Is this something worth leaving over, or should I just get over it and stay put?

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

The stuff you’re describing would be very weird for NYC biglaw, and Saying it to a summer (who the firm is trying to make a good impression to) is especially egregious. At my firm you could probably get fired for that — and it’d likely be “clear your desk now” fired, not the chill kind with website time.

You could basically switch to any other big firm here and not encounter that

[Anonymous User]

No reason not to do another SA at a different firm and then compare regardless.

More to your question though, that does seem like a major red flag and not at all common. I will say, however, that I am a male, so it is entirely possible that this is common and that as a dude I am just completely oblivious to it.

[Anonymous User]

The stuff you’re describing would be very weird for NYC biglaw, and Saying it to a summer (who the firm is trying to make a good impression to) is especially egregious. At my firm you could probably get fired for that — and it’d likely be “clear your desk now” fired, not the chill kind with website time.

You could basically switch to any other big firm here and not encounter that

That’s encouraging to hear. Unfortunately, I’m in a smaller market in the south (think Miami / Atlanta) with fewer options, but hopefully the other firms aren’t as bad.

[JM14]

You should absolutely go somewhere else!! This is beyond egregious and even lesser forms of such disrespect could be reason enough to leave. I echo the sentiment of the prior responders in saying this would absolutely not be tolerated at my firm. Even beyond this, not all firms are created equal and, although the hours will probably be similar elsewhere, working at a place where you feel respected makes such a big difference and would be preferable even if your hours would increase. Speaking from experience.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

The stuff you’re describing would be very weird for NYC biglaw, and Saying it to a summer (who the firm is trying to make a good impression to) is especially egregious. At my firm you could probably get fired for that — and it’d likely be “clear your desk now” fired, not the chill kind with website time.

You could basically switch to any other big firm here and not encounter that

That’s encouraging to hear. Unfortunately, I’m in a smaller market in the south (think Miami / Atlanta) with fewer options, but hopefully the other firms aren’t as bad.

Unless you’re a time traveler from Atlanta 50 years ago, it’s still really weird. The partners are spending money that would otherwise stay in their own pockets (and their time) to give you a good experience with food, events, drinks, etc. so that you return full time. And then the associates, whose salaries the partners pay, are negating all of that effort by being dickheads. It just makes no sense and can’t possibly be a good idea to let associates carry on like that.

[Crazystallion]

As people age they look back and cringe when they think of things they've said 10, 20, 30 years ago in an office setting. I would leave.

[Anonymous User]

Absolutely leave. The work is demanding enough without adding a toxic and discriminatory environment on top of it. Not to say other firms will be perfect or won't have their moments, but I would be shocked if this was the norm in Atlanta, etc. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if you learn as soon as you switch that the group you are in now has a bad reputation that is known outside the firm, so sticking it out might even be a detriment when you eventually get fed up and look to move.

[Anonymous User]

Biglaw sucks culturally in the sense that there is a constant if subtle pressure to always be available and work a lot. That’s the cultural problem all firms have. The behavior you described is egregious and I’ve never encountered it in my time as an associate, nor heard of it happening. I’m sure it does happen of course, but it’s not common nor an industry expectation - this is a huge red flag and I suggest you take steps to get out of that environment.

[Crazystallion]

Yes, above, it's a huge red flag. Move on. This is a sign that there are more problems under the surface. When people tell you what they are, listen to them.

[LBJ's Hair]

Rising 2L in the last week of my SA program. I don’t love my firm. I like the work, and the hours seem comparatively bearable (but not great—it’s biglaw, after all), but I’m not very happy here. The office has a definitive sexism problem that I don’t think will be resolved any time soon. For example, when I’ve gotten good reviews on work, the associates in my group have said that it’s only because I’m an “attractive female”; women attorneys are mimicked with squeaky voices; I’ve been told that I look too “soft” to handle my practice group, etc. It’s only a few bad apples who perpetuate this behavior, but my practice group is very small (think 8-10 people), so I’m around it pretty constantly, and it honestly sucks.

I’ve been thinking about trying to change firms, but I’m hesitant to leave when it may be just as bad elsewhere. How common is stuff like this? Is this something worth leaving over, or should I just get over it and stay put?

this would be a fireable offense at my firm, and any other reputable one in NYC. you do not need to tolerate it

[Anonymous User]

There are other options in Miami and Atlanta. That's not typical of the reputable firms.