Solidly below median at T14. Am I screwed? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Rising 2L at one of MVDN solely targeting the NYC transactional market at EIW/OGI/OCI. GPA sitting around a 3.15 on around a 3.3 median. I've gotten 0 pre-OCI movement this summer despite applying directly to dozens of firms. My CSO is essentially useless and I'm not sure if I have a good list of firms to be targeting. Have a couple V20s as reaches sprinkled into my bid list but my primary goal is just not striking out. Any insight on my chances this summer or potential firms to target that are less grade-selective? I'm especially nervous as I'm not sure if firms will become even more selective for the 2023 summer classes because of some economic anxiety. TIA

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Demographics matter, especially for corporate (e.g., gender/race, military status, LGBT status). Work experience and undergrad prestige/major can matter too in a marginal case.

If you have none of the above, I suggest hiring a professional interview coach — ideally someone who’s hired for biglaw before — now. Ask him/her to look at your resume too. It’s worth the money in your case. I’d also suggest mass mailing nyc midlaw firms — obviously not ideal, but don’t let vault rankings limit you.

As for class sizes, yes they will generally be smaller than last year, but it won’t be like the truly dark days of the last crisis.

[Anonymous User]

Rising 2L at one of MVDN solely targeting the NYC transactional market at EIW/OGI/OCI. GPA sitting around a 3.15 on around a 3.3 median. I've gotten 0 pre-OCI movement this summer despite applying directly to dozens of firms. My CSO is essentially useless and I'm not sure if I have a good list of firms to be targeting. Have a couple V20s as reaches sprinkled into my bid list but my primary goal is just not striking out. Any insight on my chances this summer or potential firms to target that are less grade-selective? I'm especially nervous as I'm not sure if firms will become even more selective for the 2023 summer classes because of some economic anxiety. TIA

I was in a very similar position from a worse T-14 (I'm sure you can guess where lol). I had basically the exact same GPA and I did not even participate in pre-OCI. My advice would be to take out the V20 firms and focus solely on the least grade sensitive firms that are attending your OCI. I went down the list and bid the least competitive vault firms with transactional practices in NYC and probably had ~20ish interviews with 2 callbacks and 1 offer. It's tough, but very possible if you curate your bidlist to be the least risky. I viewed firms with median callback GPAs the same as mine as reaches and just focused on getting that one offer (and was very persistent following the callback in telling them that they were my #1 choice). I eventually went through 3L OCI and landed a phenomenal firm.

[Anonymous User]

Have you applied to DPW yet pre OCI? They’re hiring left and right including below median.

[Anonymous User]

MVPB here. If I were in your shoes I'd focus on NYC plus markets where you have strong ties (eg where you're from). For NYC, SRZ, Willkie, Fried Frank, Kramer Levin, W&C, Cadwalader, Shearman etc should be top of your list, with secondary offices of non-NYC firms being backups (Cooley, MoFo, Clifford Chance, Mayer Brown, Dechert, Morgan Lewis, Covington, Hogan, A&P, Akin, K&S etc). Go for a few reach firms with excellent corporate practices too (Weil and Milbank in particular comes to mind).

[Anonymous User]

Have you applied to DPW yet pre OCI? They’re hiring left and right including below median.

This is aggressively incorrect, DPW has a pretty high GPA floor in general

[Anonymous User]

MVPB here. If I were in your shoes I'd focus on NYC plus markets where you have strong ties (eg where you're from). For NYC, SRZ, Willkie, Fried Frank, Kramer Levin, W&C, Cadwalader, Shearman etc should be top of your list, with secondary offices of non-NYC firms being backups (Cooley, MoFo, Clifford Chance, Mayer Brown, Dechert, Morgan Lewis, Covington, Hogan, A&P, Akin, K&S etc). Go for a few reach firms with excellent corporate practices too (Weil and Milbank in particular comes to mind).

Second this for the NYC markets. Milbank is a T14 whore but I haven't heard of them taking below median students outside of T6. Weil takes below median from my lower T14. Baker McKenzie, Chapman and Cutler, K&L Gates. Few more that come to mind.

[Anonymous User]

Demographics matter, especially for corporate (e.g., gender/race, military status, LGBT status). Work experience and undergrad prestige/major can matter too in a marginal case.

If you have none of the above, I suggest hiring a professional interview coach — ideally someone who’s hired for biglaw before — now. Ask him/her to look at your resume too. It’s worth the money in your case. I’d also suggest mass mailing nyc midlaw firms — obviously not ideal, but don’t let vault rankings limit you.

As for class sizes, yes they will generally be smaller than last year, but it won’t be like the truly dark days of the last crisis.

Why is this especially the case for corporate / why do these things matter less for litigation?

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Demographics matter, especially for corporate (e.g., gender/race, military status, LGBT status). Work experience and undergrad prestige/major can matter too in a marginal case.

If you have none of the above, I suggest hiring a professional interview coach — ideally someone who’s hired for biglaw before — now. Ask him/her to look at your resume too. It’s worth the money in your case. I’d also suggest mass mailing nyc midlaw firms — obviously not ideal, but don’t let vault rankings limit you.

As for class sizes, yes they will generally be smaller than last year, but it won’t be like the truly dark days of the last crisis.

Why is this especially the case for corporate / why do these things matter less for litigation?

My experience is that litigation has an easier time attracting women, minority, and URM candidates.

Prior work experience (big4, consulting, corporate finance, banking) is also less relevant for litigation, particularly since everyone has some familiarity with the topic from law school. Obvious exception would be clerking, which is highly valued. And then undergrad is a tip factor for either lit or corp.

[Anonymous User]

Not screwed at all. Aim at NYC.

In the v10 you have shots at Skadden, Kirkland, and PW. Some might say DPW or STB but I would not put much stock in that.

Weil, w&case, PH, JD, OMM, Goodwin, Akin, Orrick, etc. will all give you looks. Just run down the vault list and fire away.

Throw apps at literally everyone, everywhere but just be smart—get NYC out first, get some apps out to firms in your local market next, etc.

be confident in interviews, you’ll do fine. honestly it’s the top 25%ers at schools that outkicked their ranks in 2021 OCI that I would be concerned about, the pullback there is going to be massive and “networking” isn’t going to help in that respect.

[jotarokujo]

Demographics matter, especially for corporate (e.g., gender/race, military status, LGBT status). Work experience and undergrad prestige/major can matter too in a marginal case.

If you have none of the above, I suggest hiring a professional interview coach — ideally someone who’s hired for biglaw before — now. Ask him/her to look at your resume too. It’s worth the money in your case. I’d also suggest mass mailing nyc midlaw firms — obviously not ideal, but don’t let vault rankings limit you.

As for class sizes, yes they will generally be smaller than last year, but it won’t be like the truly dark days of the last crisis.

Why is this especially the case for corporate / why do these things matter less for litigation?

My experience is that litigation has an easier time attracting women, minority, and URM candidates.

Prior work experience (big4, consulting, corporate finance, banking) is also less relevant for litigation, particularly since everyone has some familiarity with the topic from law school. Obvious exception would be clerking, which is highly valued. And then undergrad is a tip factor for either lit or corp.

do you mean that corporate has a harder time "naturally" attracting such candidates and therefore they put a greater weight on the scale in favor of them?

also surprised at the idea of litigation being more likely to attract minority candidates, haven't noticed that anecdotally but could be

[Anonymous User]

Don't forget about average number of summer hires as a metric. The low GPA firms often do not have large class sizes. A firm with a 3.4 median, 3.2 25th and say 3.5 75th that hires 8 students per year for your school might be better than a firm with a 3.2 median that only hires 2 students per year. Depends on the data your school offers, but if it's only offer acceptance and not the average GPA of offerees, watch out for the narrow pipeline issue.

Agree with the interview coach suggestion. You could also try mock interviews with other students. Hone your pitch and you can stand out.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Demographics matter, especially for corporate (e.g., gender/race, military status, LGBT status). Work experience and undergrad prestige/major can matter too in a marginal case.

If you have none of the above, I suggest hiring a professional interview coach — ideally someone who’s hired for biglaw before — now. Ask him/her to look at your resume too. It’s worth the money in your case. I’d also suggest mass mailing nyc midlaw firms — obviously not ideal, but don’t let vault rankings limit you.

As for class sizes, yes they will generally be smaller than last year, but it won’t be like the truly dark days of the last crisis.

Why is this especially the case for corporate / why do these things matter less for litigation?

My experience is that litigation has an easier time attracting women, minority, and URM candidates.

Prior work experience (big4, consulting, corporate finance, banking) is also less relevant for litigation, particularly since everyone has some familiarity with the topic from law school. Obvious exception would be clerking, which is highly valued. And then undergrad is a tip factor for either lit or corp.

do you mean that corporate has a harder time "naturally" attracting such candidates and therefore they put a greater weight on the scale in favor of them?

also surprised at the idea of litigation being more likely to attract minority candidates, haven't noticed that anecdotally but could be

That’s my perception and that’s what recruiting at my firm has told me. But corporate is still going to be OP’s best chance at biglaw. It’s just hard for “chance” him here when all we know is his grades and school rank.

[Anonymous User]

MVPB here. If I were in your shoes I'd focus on NYC plus markets where you have strong ties (eg where you're from). For NYC, SRZ, Willkie, Fried Frank, Kramer Levin, W&C, Cadwalader, Shearman etc should be top of your list, with secondary offices of non-NYC firms being backups (Cooley, MoFo, Clifford Chance, Mayer Brown, Dechert, Morgan Lewis, Covington, Hogan, A&P, Akin, K&S etc). Go for a few reach firms with excellent corporate practices too (Weil and Milbank in particular comes to mind).

OP here, thank you. I'd say this is by far what the majority of my bid list looks like, including the reaches plus Kirkland as they are known to dip well below median at my school. Nice to know that it seems I have a decent feel for where to look for a job. I haven't really been looking in my home market since I'm 1. Not super interested and 2. I'm from a place that's more competitive to break into than NYC, but I guess it won't hurt to give it a look. Thanks again.

[Anonymous User]

Have you applied to DPW yet pre OCI? They’re hiring left and right including below median.

Top ~30% at MVDN with significant and relevant work experience. Applied to DPW early June and never heard back.

[Anonymous User]

MVPB here. If I were in your shoes I'd focus on NYC plus markets where you have strong ties (eg where you're from). For NYC, SRZ, Willkie, Fried Frank, Kramer Levin, W&C, Cadwalader, Shearman etc should be top of your list, with secondary offices of non-NYC firms being backups (Cooley, MoFo, Clifford Chance, Mayer Brown, Dechert, Morgan Lewis, Covington, Hogan, A&P, Akin, K&S etc). Go for a few reach firms with excellent corporate practices too (Weil and Milbank in particular comes to mind).

OP here, thank you. I'd say this is by far what the majority of my bid list looks like, including the reaches plus Kirkland as they are known to dip well below median at my school. Nice to know that it seems I have a decent feel for where to look for a job. I haven't really been looking in my home market since I'm 1. Not super interested and 2. I'm from a place that's more competitive to break into than NYC, but I guess it won't hurt to give it a look. Thanks again.

Is your home market DC by any chance? I was pretty surprised by how much DC firms care about ties. Doesn't hurt to throw a few bids to firms like Morgan Lewis that care more about fit than grades for T14 people.

[Anonymous User]

MVPB here. If I were in your shoes I'd focus on NYC plus markets where you have strong ties (eg where you're from). For NYC, SRZ, Willkie, Fried Frank, Kramer Levin, W&C, Cadwalader, Shearman etc should be top of your list, with secondary offices of non-NYC firms being backups (Cooley, MoFo, Clifford Chance, Mayer Brown, Dechert, Morgan Lewis, Covington, Hogan, A&P, Akin, K&S etc). Go for a few reach firms with excellent corporate practices too (Weil and Milbank in particular comes to mind).

OP here, thank you. I'd say this is by far what the majority of my bid list looks like, including the reaches plus Kirkland as they are known to dip well below median at my school. Nice to know that it seems I have a decent feel for where to look for a job. I haven't really been looking in my home market since I'm 1. Not super interested and 2. I'm from a place that's more competitive to break into than NYC, but I guess it won't hurt to give it a look. Thanks again.

Is your home market DC by any chance? I was pretty surprised by how much DC firms care about ties. Doesn't hurt to throw a few bids to firms like Morgan Lewis that care more about fit than grades for T14 people.

I'm from the Bay Area. I am under the (perhaps erroneous?) belief that my ties would not be enough to overcome my grades to get back home even if I wanted to, but I could be wrong. Of course a job in CA is better than none at all for me so perhaps worth a look. I actually wouldn't necessarily mind DC but I'd essentially written it off because of grades.

[Anonymous User]

Demographics matter, especially for corporate (e.g., gender/race, military status, LGBT status). Work experience and undergrad prestige/major can matter too in a marginal case.

If you have none of the above, I suggest hiring a professional interview coach — ideally someone who’s hired for biglaw before — now. Ask him/her to look at your resume too. It’s worth the money in your case. I’d also suggest mass mailing nyc midlaw firms — obviously not ideal, but don’t let vault rankings limit you.

As for class sizes, yes they will generally be smaller than last year, but it won’t be like the truly dark days of the last crisis.

Why is this especially the case for corporate / why do these things matter less for litigation?

My experience is that litigation has an easier time attracting women, minority, and URM candidates.

Prior work experience (big4, consulting, corporate finance, banking) is also less relevant for litigation, particularly since everyone has some familiarity with the topic from law school. Obvious exception would be clerking, which is highly valued. And then undergrad is a tip factor for either lit or corp.

do you mean that corporate has a harder time "naturally" attracting such candidates and therefore they put a greater weight on the scale in favor of them?

also surprised at the idea of litigation being more likely to attract minority candidates, haven't noticed that anecdotally but could be

That’s my perception and that’s what recruiting at my firm has told me. But corporate is still going to be OP’s best chance at biglaw. It’s just hard for “chance” him here when all we know is his grades and school rank.

OP Here. Thanks, honestly nothing special about me. Non-urm, pre-law school experience is nothing that special, decent but generally unimpressive undergrad.

[Wild Card]

When did pre-OCI become mainstream?

I always thought it was for people with good grades to get a jump.

What I mean is, you shouldn't be surprised that you've gotten radio silence, and you needn't conclude that you'll bomb OCI proper.

[Anonymous User]

When did pre-OCI become mainstream?

I always thought it was for people with good grades to get a jump.

What I mean is, you shouldn't be surprised that you've gotten radio silence, and you needn't conclude that you'll bomb OCI proper.

OP Here. Fair enough and I'm sure you are right. I do know several people at or around median receiving offers now, and about half of last year's class at my school reported a pre-OCI offer. I know a below median student shouldn't expect a pre-OCI offer but there are definitely already more folks with one than I thought there would be.

[Anonymous User]

When did pre-OCI become mainstream?

I always thought it was for people with good grades to get a jump.

What I mean is, you shouldn't be surprised that you've gotten radio silence, and you needn't conclude that you'll bomb OCI proper.

I'm in a similar situation as OP. 3.2 URM at T-14. I've done mass mailing left and right, and applied through firms websites for summer positions. I have only received one Pre-OCI interview, and a ding from STB. I am worried that the radio silence already counts as a rejection, and that I am basically already out as a candidate for firms that I have on the top of my bidlist. Would you believe that is a possibility?

[Anonymous User]

When did pre-OCI become mainstream?

I always thought it was for people with good grades to get a jump.

What I mean is, you shouldn't be surprised that you've gotten radio silence, and you needn't conclude that you'll bomb OCI proper.

There’s been a ton of change to this in the last couple of years because the NALP cartel on interview protocol broke.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

When did pre-OCI become mainstream?

I always thought it was for people with good grades to get a jump.

What I mean is, you shouldn't be surprised that you've gotten radio silence, and you needn't conclude that you'll bomb OCI proper.

I'm in a similar situation as OP. 3.2 URM at T-14. I've done mass mailing left and right, and applied through firms websites for summer positions. I have only received one Pre-OCI interview, and a ding from STB. I am worried that the radio silence already counts as a rejection, and that I am basically already out as a candidate for firms that I have on the top of my bidlist. Would you believe that is a possibility?

Pre-OCI is slanted against URMs because it’s heavily grade-based. Would not sweat it unless 3.2 is significantly below median at your school. Official OCI will go much better for you.

[Anonymous User]

OP, you're doing the right thing by applying early. I'm also from a lower T-14 and had almost the same GPA as you during OCI. I was feeling down and waited until OCI to start applying. Honestly, I did screw up by not applying to firms in NYC and, when I did, it was very late in the game. Things kind of worked out, I got 2 offers in secondary markets and the one I took pays below but close to $200k. I didn't have ties to the markets I got offers in. I know people in a similar boat as me during OCI who legit gave up and now are PI students. Someone else snagged an offer in NY with a firm that has similar pay as mine.

Don't give up. I do recommend you apply in secondary markets if possible. I had better luck landing callbacks because it's rare to see T-14 students applying, so use that for your benefit. The same goes for firms that don't come to OCI. I could've continued applying, but by the end of September I was exhausted and wanted to focus on improving my grades to try again in 3L.

You'll get something. Just apply broadly, work on good cover letters, reach out to alumni in firms, and I hope that it works out for you.

[goldenflash19]

Reaching out to alumni at firms for a brief call is the best thing to do. When you are asked “Why this firm?” you’ll have an answer that stands out. So many candidates say the same generic stuff from the website.