In-person expectations for first years? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I'm an incoming first-year associate in litigation at a V10 in New York. I'm going to start apartment hunting soon but everything close to the office is incredibly expensive (I was told to keep commute under 30 minutes). If first-years aren't expected to come in 5x/week, I'd like to move a bit further away if possible. What have been the experiences of juniors? Do expectations vary depending on practice groups? I'll be joining one of DPW/S&C/GDC.

[Anonymous User]

I'm an incoming first-year associate in litigation at a V10 in New York. I'm going to start apartment hunting soon but everything close to the office is incredibly expensive (I was told to keep commute under 30 minutes). If first-years aren't expected to come in 5x/week, I'd like to move a bit further away if possible. What have been the experiences of juniors? Do expectations vary depending on practice groups? I'll be joining one of DPW/S&C/GDC.

You should expect to be in the office most days, especially as an incoming first year. Firms across the board are looking to increase attendance in office right now and I expect there to be a much stronger push for this once 2023 comes around based on what I've heard from partners and contacts. Also, partners/firms wont openly announce this on the record but most partners I've spoken to have noted that they do and will prioritize associates who are coming into the office for staffing and mentoring. In fact, I know the partners in my group have run through the group roster in their meetings to note who has been coming in.

[Anonymous User]

Between those three firms there are going to be differences in policy. But if it is DPW, I can speak to that. People only really come in/would expect you to come in Tuesday-Thursday (of course not all are the same—friend in cap markets says the culture is more in person), but the general feelings are that we expect Neil to slowly push facetime requirement—i.e., we only move "forwards" to more facetime in the future and not less facetime. If I had to guess, it is going to end up being Monday-Thursday. Good thing about DPW though is that, as I am sure you know, it is literally right outside grand central so if you can get a place in a subway line that goes straight there, that could help.

If your firm is not DPW none of this is useful I guess.

Anyways more to your general question. As a first year, I'd plan on just coming into the office often. Partners are always complaining about how zoom isn't a proper replacement for real teamwork and connection blah blah.

[blair.waldorf]

I'd plan on three days a week.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a first year (not in the V10 though) and I work basically 100% remotely, but I have special circumstances that have me living halfway across the country for the next couple years and I'm a firm with no in-office requirement

[Anonymous User]

I'm a first year at a V10. I go in 2x a week. If I'm super busy I'll stay home an extra day (or 2) due to not being able to get out. If I'm feeling extra social I'll go in 3x a week but have never been in more than that. Most juniors have been doing the same. The firm has a very flexible WFH policy - genuinely no one cares if you're in and no one is looking/asking.

With that said, I have colleagues at other V10s (CSM/DPW) that have emphasized how much in-person work means to their partners/teams etc. They consistently go in 3x a week.

Basically, it's very firm specific. I would reach out to a junior at the firm in the group youre going into and ask.

[Anonymous User]

Are NY firms with 4 days/week policies actually enforcing it?

[enibs]

Are NY firms with 4 days/week policies actually enforcing it?

If by “enforcing it” you mean are they going to fire you imminently if you don’t comply, the answer is no. If you mean is it going to adversely affect your advancement and eventually lead to your being counseled out, the answer is there’s a real risk. Of course, there’s a difference between non-compliance in the form of three days a week versus no days a week, the latter being more likely to have adverse consequences (and sooner) than the former.

[Anonymous User]

If by “enforcing it” you mean are they going to fire you imminently if you don’t comply, the answer is no. If you mean is it going to adversely affect your advancement and eventually lead to your being counseled out, the answer is there’s a real risk. Of course, there’s a difference between non-compliance in the form of three days a week versus no days a week, the latter being more likely to have adverse consequences (and sooner) than the former.

TITCR. I haven't heard of a single person being fired for failing to comply with an RTO requirement. Has anybody else?

If you want to stick around long term, then you should comply. If you're worried about giving the firm a reason to fire you over another cog when the economy tanks, then you should comply. If you hate rocking the boat and want to avoid an awkward convo about why you don't come in enough, then you should comply. But if you are willing to take risks and plan to leave within the first few years then you can absolutely treat RTO requirements as flexible.

[Anonymous User]

Everything is so firm, office, partner dependent. There’s no way to give a good answer.

If you do all of your work for one partner who is never in the office, you can basically be full time remote even in the face of office attendance policies at some firms.

On the other hand, my firm has a three day a week “requirement” and I work for a partner who insists on meeting in person on one of the two weekdays that the firm has left open for remote work. I can join via Zoom occasionally if I have a reason, but the general expectation is that I come in.

In general though it’s probably good for first years to expect to be in more often than not at a minimum, until you get a good lay of the land and build a reputation, which I would estimate will take about a year. Someone else already said to shoot for 3 days; that seems fair to me, especially as long as one of the remote days is Friday (by far the most popular remote day in my office at least).

[Anonymous User]

If you're considering staying long-term, live close year 1; you can always move further out later, but as a first year being responsive and present is extra valuable.

[Anonymous User]

If you're considering staying long-term, live close year 1; you can always move further out later, but as a first year being responsive and present is extra valuable.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a first year in a non NYC major market. I try to give the impression that I'm in 3 days, but usually it's 2 days, sometimes less. My office looks lived in and I say hello to people.

[jotarokujo]

30 mins is a little stringent but i'd keep the commute under 40 door to door. and that 40 is for the morning commute, if you take a car home late it'll be less

[Anonymous User]

I somewhat contest the premise—you can find apartments that aren’t ludicrous by NYC standards (ie <2500 a month) within 30 mins of commuting to those firms’ offices. UES, Midtown East, LES, Astoria, Long Island City, Greenpoint, Williamsburg are all very expensive by reasonable-people standards, especially reasonable-people-who-don’t-live-in-NYC standards, but they’re not Greenwich Village or Chelsea.

[Anonymous User]

I somewhat contest the premise—you can find apartments that aren’t ludicrous by NYC standards (ie <2500 a month) within 30 mins of commuting to those firms’ offices. UES, Midtown East, LES, Astoria, Long Island City, Greenpoint, Williamsburg are all very expensive by reasonable-people standards, especially reasonable-people-who-don’t-live-in-NYC standards, but they’re not Greenwich Village or Chelsea.

UWS too, right?

[Anonymous User]

I interviewed with a half dozen firms as a litigation lateral, and it varies across the board.

Some firms are exasperated and desperate, others do not give a f.

You have to figure it out.

[Anonymous User]

I somewhat contest the premise—you can find apartments that aren’t ludicrous by NYC standards (ie <2500 a month) within 30 mins of commuting to those firms’ offices. UES, Midtown East, LES, Astoria, Long Island City, Greenpoint, Williamsburg are all very expensive by reasonable-people standards, especially reasonable-people-who-don’t-live-in-NYC standards, but they’re not Greenwich Village or Chelsea.

UWS too, right?

Check streeteasy. UWS is a bit less expensive than UES, but more than Greenpoint/Williamsburg. Biggest issue with UWS is if you work in midtown east commuting can be rough. Hudson yards is p easy tho

[Anonymous User]

I'm an incoming first-year associate in litigation at a V10 in New York. I'm going to start apartment hunting soon but everything close to the office is incredibly expensive (I was told to keep commute under 30 minutes). If first-years aren't expected to come in 5x/week, I'd like to move a bit further away if possible. What have been the experiences of juniors? Do expectations vary depending on practice groups? I'll be joining one of DPW/S&C/GDC.

Almost in my third year. I've been in a handful of times total since starting big law. under 10 times for sure despite "60% requirement." No issues so far. v20

[Anonymous User]

I'm an incoming first-year associate in litigation at a V10 in New York. I'm going to start apartment hunting soon but everything close to the office is incredibly expensive (I was told to keep commute under 30 minutes). If first-years aren't expected to come in 5x/week, I'd like to move a bit further away if possible. What have been the experiences of juniors? Do expectations vary depending on practice groups? I'll be joining one of DPW/S&C/GDC.

Almost in my third year. I've been in a handful of times total since starting big law. under 10 times for sure despite "60% requirement." No issues so far. v20

This has been my experience at a V10 and V50 firm. I think the overlords have accepted that associates just aren't going to come in all the time anymore.

[Anonymous User]

I think firms should be thoughtful about why nobody wants to come in. For example, if you’re putting first years in a bullpen like my NYC office is, it’s very reasonable that they will try to avoid coming in.

I somewhat contest the premise—you can find apartments that aren’t ludicrous by NYC standards (ie <2500 a month) within 30 mins of commuting to those firms’ offices. UES, Midtown East, LES, Astoria, Long Island City, Greenpoint, Williamsburg are all very expensive by reasonable-people standards, especially reasonable-people-who-don’t-live-in-NYC standards, but they’re not Greenwich Village or Chelsea.

UWS too, right?

Check streeteasy. UWS is a bit less expensive than UES, but more than Greenpoint/Williamsburg. Biggest issue with UWS is if you work in midtown east commuting can be rough. Hudson yards is p easy tho

UWS is meaningfully more expensive than UES now. Median asking rent $4250 versus $3500. I just did an apartment search last month and there was a big difference.

https://patch.com/new-york/upper-east-s ... ill-rising

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