KJD and Clerkship Experience Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hi all, I am a KJD and I am about to start a federal CoA clerkship. I liked my 2L summer firm, but they don't really do the type of work I want to do long term. I felt that when I applied during OCI my lack of work experience was a pretty big issue for employers. Will firms still view me as a KJD coming off a clerkship? Or does work experience matter less for people applying out of clerkships?

[jotarokujo]

the "no job" thing will definitely be gone by then

[Anonymous User]

Hi all, I am a KJD and I am about to start a federal CoA clerkship. I liked my 2L summer firm, but they don't really do the type of work I want to do long term. I felt that when I applied during OCI my lack of work experience was a pretty big issue for employers. Will firms still view me as a KJD coming off a clerkship? Or does work experience matter less for people applying out of clerkships?

It matters less but still matters a little bit. Just try to come across as someone with good judgment and maturity. And have a thoughtful and genuine answer to the "why do you want to work here?" question.

[Anonymous User]

I agree that it could still matter a little - people know a COA clerkship means you're really smart, but I also think some people don't necessarily see a clerkship as exactly the same as other previous professional experience. But the credential will make you valuable and as long as you come across well in interviews, you'll be fine.

I don't mean to sound unkind, but if your lack of experience was a big issue for employers at OCI it may mean that that lack of experience showed in how you interviewed, and/or it was a way for interviewers to see how you handled talking about a weakness. You can rebut any presumptions they have about K-JDs in the way you handle the interview.

(Tons of K-JDs get hired every year, so lack of work experience can't have been that much of an issue unless you had literally never ever worked for pay before even in high school or college. If that really is the case, then your SA plus clerking should do the trick.)

[Anonymous User]

I agree that it could still matter a little - people know a COA clerkship means you're really smart, but I also think some people don't necessarily see a clerkship as exactly the same as other previous professional experience. But the credential will make you valuable and as long as you come across well in interviews, you'll be fine.

I don't mean to sound unkind, but if your lack of experience was a big issue for employers at OCI it may mean that that lack of experience showed in how you interviewed, and/or it was a way for interviewers to see how you handled talking about a weakness. You can rebut any presumptions they have about K-JDs in the way you handle the interview.

(Tons of K-JDs get hired every year, so lack of work experience can't have been that much of an issue unless you had literally never ever worked for pay before even in high school or college. If that really is the case, then your SA plus clerking should do the trick.)

OP here. Thanks for this comment. I appreciate the honesty. I think the combo of being a KJD, not showing enthusiasm about BigLaw, and not really hiding that I want to do appellate work made things difficult for me.

As for prior work experience, I have worked since I was about 15 doing a mix of manual labor and political work, which I suppose might not be reassuring to a BigLaw firm that I will be sticking around.

[OPM]

Hi all, I am a KJD and I am about to start a federal CoA clerkship. I liked my 2L summer firm, but they don't really do the type of work I want to do long term. I felt that when I applied during OCI my lack of work experience was a pretty big issue for employers. Will firms still view me as a KJD coming off a clerkship? Or does work experience matter less for people applying out of clerkships?

My sense is that it will not matter very much on its face. You have at least one year of highly valued professional experience now, and are (usually) assumed to be somewhat serious and trustworthy because a federal appellate judge trusted you with their sensitive work. But your lack of w/e may bleed into other considerations such as: can you articulate what type of work you want to do? A lot of the clerks I've seen who struggle with post-clerkship recruiting don't seem to have a narrative about how they see their practice developing, or if they do, it's something that doesn't fit most firms' business models (e.g., I'd like to do appellate and lots of pro bono, interviewing with firms which has relatively little paying appellate work or with a profile that makes you a marginal candidate for the firm's ultra-competitive siloed appellate practice). If you didn't like what your 2L SA firm did, some might wonder whether you're one of the more academic folks who just won't fit well at a profit-seeking law firm, unless you can articulate exactly why that specific firm's practice was not a good fit but other firms' (profitable) practices will be. All of this matters less if your judge and profile are particularly impressive and you're looking for something relatively classic (like just lit generally and evince a willingness to take whatever cases are around).

[Anonymous User]

Hi all, I am a KJD and I am about to start a federal CoA clerkship. I liked my 2L summer firm, but they don't really do the type of work I want to do long term. I felt that when I applied during OCI my lack of work experience was a pretty big issue for employers. Will firms still view me as a KJD coming off a clerkship? Or does work experience matter less for people applying out of clerkships?

My sense is that it will not matter very much on its face. You have at least one year of highly valued professional experience now, and are (usually) assumed to be somewhat serious and trustworthy because a federal appellate judge trusted you with their sensitive work. But your lack of w/e may bleed into other considerations such as: can you articulate what type of work you want to do? A lot of the clerks I've seen who struggle with post-clerkship recruiting don't seem to have a narrative about how they see their practice developing, or if they do, it's something that doesn't fit most firms' business models (e.g., I'd like to do appellate and lots of pro bono, interviewing with firms which has relatively little paying appellate work or with a profile that makes you a marginal candidate for the firm's ultra-competitive siloed appellate practice). If you didn't like what your 2L SA firm did, some might wonder whether you're one of the more academic folks who just won't fit well at a profit-seeking law firm, unless you can articulate exactly why that specific firm's practice was not a good fit but other firms' (profitable) practices will be. All of this matters less if your judge and profile are particularly impressive and you're looking for something relatively classic (like just lit generally and evince a willingness to take whatever cases are around).

Presuming my credentials are sufficient for the "ultra-competitive siloed appellate work" should I be willing to say I want to do that type of work? So should I just be vague about wanting to do general lit? I am in the odd position where I think talking about appellate stuff burned me in EIP (when combined with my lack of work experience, I think it made me look naive), but not talking about appellate stuff could result in me being pushed into a group that wasn't my first choice.

[OPM]

Hi all, I am a KJD and I am about to start a federal CoA clerkship. I liked my 2L summer firm, but they don't really do the type of work I want to do long term. I felt that when I applied during OCI my lack of work experience was a pretty big issue for employers. Will firms still view me as a KJD coming off a clerkship? Or does work experience matter less for people applying out of clerkships?

My sense is that it will not matter very much on its face. You have at least one year of highly valued professional experience now, and are (usually) assumed to be somewhat serious and trustworthy because a federal appellate judge trusted you with their sensitive work. But your lack of w/e may bleed into other considerations such as: can you articulate what type of work you want to do? A lot of the clerks I've seen who struggle with post-clerkship recruiting don't seem to have a narrative about how they see their practice developing, or if they do, it's something that doesn't fit most firms' business models (e.g., I'd like to do appellate and lots of pro bono, interviewing with firms which has relatively little paying appellate work or with a profile that makes you a marginal candidate for the firm's ultra-competitive siloed appellate practice). If you didn't like what your 2L SA firm did, some might wonder whether you're one of the more academic folks who just won't fit well at a profit-seeking law firm, unless you can articulate exactly why that specific firm's practice was not a good fit but other firms' (profitable) practices will be. All of this matters less if your judge and profile are particularly impressive and you're looking for something relatively classic (like just lit generally and evince a willingness to take whatever cases are around).

Presuming my credentials are sufficient for the "ultra-competitive siloed appellate work" should I be willing to say I want to do that type of work? So should I just be vague about wanting to do general lit? I am in the odd position where I think talking about appellate stuff burned me in EIP (when combined with my lack of work experience, I think it made me look naive), but not talking about appellate stuff could result in me being pushed into a group that wasn't my first choice.

My best advice would be to say (1) appellate and (2) something else, preferably something that is more plentiful and/or profitable for the firm. This could be "I'd like to do litigation, a mix of appellate and trial or commercial lit" or "I'd like to do appellate mixed with privacy or investigations or regulatory etc."

There are very few DC firms that have large enough appellate practices to be hiring associates to work mostly or solely in appellate (mainly DC offices of Gibson, Wilmer, Sidley, Hogan, Paul, Weiss, Kirkland, Williams, Jones Day). Those firms are, obviously, quite competitive and a lot of their appellate slots will already be taken by clerks who are returning after summering/working before clerking, and by SCOTUS and gov't hires as more mid-levels. Most of these firms are also relatively free market, and most have a plethora of competitive COA clerks sharing some appellate work with some other work. There are obviously other firms as well that have some appellate work, but they will have even less interest in a dedicated appellate or appellate-focused junior associate.

All of that to say: you can and should express a desire to work in appellate. But if you say you want to work *only* in appellate, you will severely lower your chances of landing an opportunity at one of the places where you might have a lot of appellate work and demand for an appellate-focused associate. I'm presuming you don't want to be at this sort of disadvantage since you suggested that you struggled somewhat in OCI (maybe because of interviewing skills, w/e, something else in your background). So I'd say do yourself a favor and think about something else you might like doing that is more common at all of these firms, and you can articulate as another practice group of interest. And you can't go wrong saying "general lit" to a fantastic lit firm with lots of appellate work. If you land there, you can slowly develop more connections to the appellate work, but at least you're there with a chance at that work (evidently not the case at your 2L firm, I gather).

[CanadianWolf]

the "no job" thing will definitely be gone by then

This.

With work experience, the primary concern becomes your preferred practice area.

My best guess is that you will see the practice of law in a different--and more seasoned--light after completing a federal COA clerkship.

If still unsure about litigation after a year of appellate work, would a federal district court clerkship appeal to you ?

Moreover, after a year or two of clerking in the federal system, you may not be as concerned about landing a position in biglaw--assuming that your student loan debt--if any--is manageable without biglaw compensation.

OP wrote: "As for prior work experience, I have worked since I was about 15 doing a mix of manual labor and political work, which I suppose might not be reassuring to a Biglaw firm that I will stick around."

This sentence may show why you did not do well at OCI. Biglaw firms are unlikely to be concerned about the possibility that you might leave for a career as a manual laborer. Your thought process should be much more mature after a year in a COA clerkship.

[Anonymous User]

the "no job" thing will definitely be gone by then

This.

With work experience, the primary concern becomes your preferred practice area.

My best guess is that you will see the practice of law in a different--and more seasoned--light after completing a federal COA clerkship.

If still unsure about litigation after a year of appellate work, would a federal district court clerkship appeal to you ?

Moreover, after a year or two of clerking in the federal system, you may not be as concerned about landing a position in biglaw--assuming that your student loan debt--if any--is manageable without biglaw compensation.

OP wrote: "As for prior work experience, I have worked since I was about 15 doing a mix of manual labor and political work, which I suppose might not be reassuring to a Biglaw firm that I will stick around."

This sentence may show why you did not do well at OCI. Biglaw firms are unlikely to be concerned about the possibility that you might leave for a career as a manual laborer. Your thought process should be much more mature after a year in a COA clerkship.

OP here. Thanks all for the advice. To be clear, I didn't think BigLaw interviewers were worried that I would leave for a manual labor job. I more so meant that the political work when combined with other stuff on my resume indicated that I am more interested in academia or impact lit. Maybe I am mistaken, but I have been told that firms are often worried about KJDs sticking around (especially in the DC market), and I figured that my academic and political interests exacerbated that worry.

[CanadianWolf]

The portion of my response regarding manual labor was intended to add a bit of humor while pointing out that your concerns about you being viewed as a flight risk from biglaw are unnecessary. Most biglaw attorneys leave after three or four years due to burnout & a desire for a more well-rounded life.

Your focus on politics, academia, and impact litigation combined with your lack of professional work experience as a K-JD probably does not raise concerns of being a flight risk as much as it indicates a lack of direction within the legal profession. A year or two of clerking at the federal level should help to clarify & to refine your goals & interests in the legal profession.