UVA bidlist critique Forum

[Anonymous User]

[anon b/c relatively unique stats/preferences]

Hi all,

Just got my second semester grades back and am roughly in the top 5-7 % of the class at UVA. I'd really appreciate it if ya'll could critique my bidlist. I know it's DC heavy - planning to use supplemental bids on Chicago firms. Have *some* ties to DC, but they are not necessarily super strong. Hoping to do litigation or regulatory work, though I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to going to a top NY corporate shop if I miss out on the top DC firms. (Finally, one safety firm has been omitted because it's fairly unique and might out me).

Also, to the extent that it's relevant, I'm fairly conservative and planning on applying for appellate clerkships - hence GDC and Kirkland being ranked so high.

*UPDATE*: I have reworked the bidlist in line with the helpful suggestions you all have made. The new bidlist is below:

1. GDC DC
2. Cov DC
3. Cravath
4. K&E DC
5. Williams & Connolly
6. Wilmer DC
7. Latham DC
8. Sidley DC
9. Hogan DC
10. Cleary DC
11. Arnold & Porter DC
12. Sullivan & Cromwell DC
13. Wiley Rein
14. WLRK
15. PW DC
16. Jones Day DC
17. Mayer Brown DC
18. King & Spalding DC
19. Orrick DC
20. MoFo DC
21. O'Melveny & Myers DC
22. Hunton Andrews Kurth DC
23. Steptoe & Johnson
24. Akin DC
25. Cleary NY
26. Goodwin DC
27. McGuireWoods DC
28. DPW NY
29. Skadden DC
30. Deb NY
31. Milbank NY
32. Squire Patton Boggs DC
33. Harris Wiltshire DC
34. Morgan Lewis DC
35. STB NY
36. Paul Hastings DC
37. Vinson & Elkins DC
38. Allen & Overy DC
39. Baker Botts DC
40. Holland & Knight DC
41. Skadden NY
42. Dechert DC
43. McDermott Will & Emery DC
44. White & Case DC
45. WSGR DC
46. Winston & Strawn DC
47. Haynes & Boone DC
48. Willkie NY
49. Weil NY

[Anonymous User]

I don’t know how many slots y’all get for DC firms, but I can’t imagine many folks are placing the most competitive shops as their 1-5. I’d slide a couple down in favor of at least 1-2 “safeties”. You’ll probably still get the most competitive bids

also, WLRK goes to UVA’s OCI now?

[Anonymous User]

I don’t know how many slots y’all get for DC firms, but I can’t imagine many folks are placing the most competitive shops as their 1-5. I’d slide a couple down in favor of at least 1-2 “safeties”. You’ll probably still get the most competitive bids

This is OP. Should I move less competitive DC firms into the top five, or true safeties like non-selective NY firms?

Edit: yes, apparently so! I had heard WLRK had just done a resume collection in the past, but they are available to bid on this year, as far as I can tell.

[Anonymous User]

I don't know the extent to which the availability of bids is affecting this, but just ranking desirability for an applicant in your shoes I would move up the DC offices of Jones Day, Paul Weiss, King & Spalding, and Hunton, which have conservative-appeals practices (and for JD, one of the biggest classes in DC), and OMM and Mayer Brown. Mayer DC, a very strong office, at 46 is the facially strangest thing here. I would also apply to DPW DC and Jenner DC, though the latter may not take a conservative, and Kramer Levin DC, because it just bought Robbins Russell.

If you like Chicago, I don't think it makes sense to bid some really marginal DC firms over top Chicago shops with big classes like Latham, Jenner, Mayer, and Winston. Kirkland and Sidley are very selective in Chicago and even someone with your grades can't count on getting a callback, let alone an offer. Screeners be random.

Since you're conservative, you should shoot apps to Cooper & Kirk, Consovoy, and Lehotsky Keller to split (though I think Cooper only does 1Ls, it's worth a shot), and maybe also Schaerr Jaffe. Also try an app to the Kellogg Hansen split program. And maybe Keller Postman if you'd potentially be interested in working plaintiff-side.

[Anonymous User]

I don't know the extent to which the availability of bids is affecting this, but just ranking desirability for an applicant in your shoes I would move up the DC offices of Jones Day, Paul Weiss, King & Spalding, and Hunton, which have conservative-appeals practices (and for JD, one of the biggest classes in DC), and OMM and Mayer Brown. Mayer DC, a very strong office, at 46 is the facially strangest thing here. I would also apply to DPW DC and Jenner DC, though the latter may not take a conservative.

If you like Chicago, I don't think it makes sense to bid some really marginal DC firms over top Chicago shops with big classes like Latham, Jenner, Mayer, and Winston.

This is OP.

Didn't know those firms had strong appellate practices - I think I was extrapolating from their rankings in general commercial lit, which I realize might have been a mistake. Thanks.

As for Chicago - UVA gives a lot of folks supplemental bids (an extra 20) that are designed to encourage geographic diversity. I will likely bid some of those Chicago firms using my supplemental bids (I didn't include the list here because I didn't want to clutter up the thread).

Finally - Latham, DPW and a couple of other firms prohibit bidding on multiple offices (eg you can't bid both Latham Chicago and Latham DC). All else being equal, where this restriction was imposed I decided to bid what I felt to be the stronger office (Latham DC as opposed to Latham Chicago, and DPW NY as opposed to DPW DC). But maybe it might be worthwhile to double down on DC and choose DPW DC.

[Anonymous User]

Weird, they didn't have that policy when I did OCI. I think Latham let you only do one interview, but you could indicate an interest in multiple offices. In that case I would bid Latham DC and DPW NY, like you did.

Orrick also has a very strong appellate practice. For appeals you really need to use Chambers, it's not correlated much at all with general commercial lit.

[Anonymous User]

Weird, they didn't have that policy when I did OCI. I think Latham let you only do one interview, but you could indicate an interest in multiple offices. In that case I would bid Latham DC and DPW NY, like you did.

Orrick also has a very strong appellate practice. For appeals you really need to use Chambers, it's not correlated much at all with general commercial lit.

This is OP.

Per Chambers, Orrick, Goodwin, and MoFo all have strong appellate practices. Are there any others that I'm missing? (Would mention MTO but it seems that a SCOTUS clerkship is a necessary condition to work in that group, and I'm under no illusions about my chances).

[Anonymous User]

I am a 2022 grad starting a COA clerkship this fall (didn’t go to UVA), and for what it’s worth, I don’t think that where you summer moves the needle at all for clerkship hiring. I’d choose based on where you think you’d like to work the most before you start a clerkship assuming you don’t get one straight out. And if you do get one straight out, many people rerecruit at other firms or doing other things. I also summered at one of the places in the top 5 of your list and think they’re all interchangeable.

[Anonymous User]

I am a 2022 grad starting a COA clerkship this fall (didn’t go to UVA), and for what it’s worth, I don’t think that where you summer moves the needle at all for clerkship hiring. I’d choose based on where you think you’d like to work the most before you start a clerkship assuming you don’t get one straight out. And if you do get one straight out, many people rerecruit at other firms or doing other things. I also summered at one of the places in the top 5 of your list and think they’re all interchangeable.

This is OP.

That's my sense of it too. Couldn't hurt to make inroads with an appellate group early on though, right?

[msk1111]

I am a 2022 grad starting a COA clerkship this fall (didn’t go to UVA), and for what it’s worth, I don’t think that where you summer moves the needle at all for clerkship hiring. I’d choose based on where you think you’d like to work the most before you start a clerkship assuming you don’t get one straight out. And if you do get one straight out, many people rerecruit at other firms or doing other things. I also summered at one of the places in the top 5 of your list and think they’re all interchangeable.

This is OP.

That's my sense of it too. Couldn't hurt to make inroads with an appellate group early on though, right?

Definitely won’t hurt! But if you have to choose between where you click with people the most and which is the most prestigious, go with fit every time because judges don’t seem to care much about the prestige either way and if you want to do appellate work when you grow up, the clerkship will be the gatekeeper regardless.

[Anonymous User]

Weird, they didn't have that policy when I did OCI. I think Latham let you only do one interview, but you could indicate an interest in multiple offices. In that case I would bid Latham DC and DPW NY, like you did.

Orrick also has a very strong appellate practice. For appeals you really need to use Chambers, it's not correlated much at all with general commercial lit.

This is OP.

Per Chambers, Orrick, Goodwin, and MoFo all have strong appellate practices. Are there any others that I'm missing? (Would mention MTO but it seems that a SCOTUS clerkship is a necessary condition to work in that group, and I'm under no illusions about my chances).

Don't forget Wilmer. I know it's on your list, but probably further down that it should be if appellate is what you're most interested in. I know it tends to lean left (I'm an associate in a non-DC office), but there's a sizeable contingency of conservative appellate lawyers that I hear are good to work for. Also agree with the prior post that JD should be higher up on your list, though INA is hard to break into without SCOTUS. In the least it's a great way to network with DC conservatives, even if you don't land there.

[Anonymous User]

I am a 2022 grad starting a COA clerkship this fall (didn’t go to UVA), and for what it’s worth, I don’t think that where you summer moves the needle at all for clerkship hiring. I’d choose based on where you think you’d like to work the most before you start a clerkship assuming you don’t get one straight out. And if you do get one straight out, many people rerecruit at other firms or doing other things. I also summered at one of the places in the top 5 of your list and think they’re all interchangeable.

This is OP.

That's my sense of it too. Couldn't hurt to make inroads with an appellate group early on though, right?

Definitely won’t hurt! But if you have to choose between where you click with people the most and which is the most prestigious, go with fit every time because judges don’t seem to care much about the prestige either way and if you want to do appellate work when you grow up, the clerkship will be the gatekeeper regardless.

This is OP.

Interesting - had not heard that judges don't really care about firm prestige. That's definitely something to take into account. Thanks!

[Anonymous User]

Weird, they didn't have that policy when I did OCI. I think Latham let you only do one interview, but you could indicate an interest in multiple offices. In that case I would bid Latham DC and DPW NY, like you did.

Orrick also has a very strong appellate practice. For appeals you really need to use Chambers, it's not correlated much at all with general commercial lit.

This is OP.

Per Chambers, Orrick, Goodwin, and MoFo all have strong appellate practices. Are there any others that I'm missing? (Would mention MTO but it seems that a SCOTUS clerkship is a necessary condition to work in that group, and I'm under no illusions about my chances).

Don't forget Wilmer. I know it's on your list, but probably further down that it should be if appellate is what you're most interested in. I know it tends to lean left (I'm an associate in a non-DC office), but there's a sizeable contingency of conservative appellate lawyers that I hear are good to work for. Also agree with the prior post that JD should be higher up on your list, though INA is hard to break into without SCOTUS. In the least it's a great way to network with DC conservatives, even if you don't land there.

This is OP.

Thanks - will definitely make those changes re JD and Wilmer.

More generally - do people think my bid strategy is too aggressive? (I've heard of people with top grades being totally shut out of DC). I tried to mitigate that risk by bidding the top NYC corporate groups as well, but I'm still a little worried that my bidlist is too ambitious.

[Anonymous User]

This is OP.

Thanks - will definitely make those changes re JD and Wilmer.

More generally - do people think my bid strategy is too aggressive? (I've heard of people with top grades being totally shut out of DC). I tried to mitigate that risk by bidding the top NYC corporate groups as well, but I'm still a little worried that my bidlist is too ambitious.

I'm somewhat old, I'm but assuming screeners are still awarded as a combination of lottery and preselects. If that's still the case, then people with your GPA don't get shut out of DC because they bid too many high ranking firms. Your GPA will get you screeners at most of the firms you listed. But you may get yield protected at some of the lower ranked firms. So the question here is how many "safety firms" (those that wouldn't expect to land someone with your GPA) do you need to bid high to ensure that you get via lottery, in addition to those who preselect you.

That depends mostly on one thing: are you a good interviewer? If yes, then I would say drop your NYC safety net and bid almost all DC. You'll likely land at one of the top shops, but you'll have more room for safety firms in the 15-20 range that you'll lottery and have a great chance at. You'll get something somewhere, so all you need is a few DC safeties in case of a freak accident.

It's a bit more complicated if the answer is no. Let's cross that bridge when we get there. But definitely drop Skadden NY - they are way more into (bro-ish) personality than the other highly ranked NYC shops. If you don't interview well, don't bother with them.

One more thing: if you're looking for space, drop Quinn DC. They love post-clerkship hiring, and with you're grades you'll get something appellate somewhere for sure. If you decide you really want to do plaintiff side work, you can look at them after you clerk (like most associates do).

[Anonymous User]

This is OP.

Thanks - will definitely make those changes re JD and Wilmer.

More generally - do people think my bid strategy is too aggressive? (I've heard of people with top grades being totally shut out of DC). I tried to mitigate that risk by bidding the top NYC corporate groups as well, but I'm still a little worried that my bidlist is too ambitious.

I'm somewhat old, I'm but assuming screeners are still awarded as a combination of lottery and preselects. If that's still the case, then people with your GPA don't get shut out of DC because they bid too many high ranking firms. Your GPA will get you screeners at most of the firms you listed. But you may get yield protected at some of the lower ranked firms. So the question here is how many "safety firms" (those that wouldn't expect to land someone with your GPA) do you need to bid high to ensure that you get via lottery, in addition to those who preselect you.

That depends mostly on one thing: are you a good interviewer? If yes, then I would say drop your NYC safety net and bid almost all DC. You'll likely land at one of the top shops, but you'll have more room for safety firms in the 15-20 range that you'll lottery and have a great chance at. You'll get something somewhere, so all you need is a few DC safeties in case of a freak accident.

It's a bit more complicated if the answer is no. Let's cross that bridge when we get there. But definitely drop Skadden NY - they are way more into (bro-ish) personality than the other highly ranked NYC shops. If you don't interview well, don't bother with them.

One more thing: if you're looking for space, drop Quinn DC. They love post-clerkship hiring, and with you're grades you'll get something appellate somewhere for sure. If you decide you really want to do plaintiff side work, you can look at them after you clerk (like most associates do).

This is OP.

Wow - yield protection is still a thing? Wasn't aware firms even cared about that. Thanks. And yes, screeners are still awarded as a combination of lottery and preselects.

At best I'm probably an average interviewer - definitely will not charm the pants off of anyone, but I also don't wet my pants in social situations. Not sure which way that cuts.

Dropping Skadden does make sense, but given how highly ranked they are for corporate I think I'd like a second opinion on that before I do. The Quinn approach also makes sense, but I'm not sure that I'm super pressed for space. I might just move them down a bit because I'm not totally sold on plaintiffs-side stuff.

[sanfranciscobiglaw]

2. Cov DC - very liberal
5. Williams & Connolly - not for regulatory
6. Arnold & Porter DC - very liberal
11. Hogan DC - should be higher
13. Wiley Rein - should be higher, regulatory and conservative
15. Cleary NY - do they let you bid two offices? check; they didn't previously
18. STB NY - good safety
19. Jones Day DC - should be higher
20. Kirkland Chicago - confirm can do >1 office?
21. Sidley Chicago - same; DC should
23. Quinn DC - delete
24. PW DC - litigation is liberal there...
30. Caplin & Drysdale DC - delete, only does tax
31. McGuireWoods DC - all the dc firms in your 30s should be higher imo... why put chicago over these...?
43. White & Case DC - higher, big class = better odds, this goes for everything in here

some thoughts in the quote from someone who bid NY and DC from UVA

your best bets are probably gibson kirkland JD wiley sidley

curious what gpa makes you think you're 5-7% given uva doesn't tell you that sort of info

[Anonymous User]

2. Cov DC - very liberal
5. Williams & Connolly - not for regulatory
6. Arnold & Porter DC - very liberal
11. Hogan DC - should be higher
13. Wiley Rein - should be higher, regulatory and conservative
15. Cleary NY - do they let you bid two offices? check; they didn't previously
18. STB NY - good safety
19. Jones Day DC - should be higher
20. Kirkland Chicago - confirm can do >1 office?
21. Sidley Chicago - same; DC should
23. Quinn DC - delete
24. PW DC - litigation is liberal there...
30. Caplin & Drysdale DC - delete, only does tax
31. McGuireWoods DC - all the dc firms in your 30s should be higher imo... why put chicago over these...?
43. White & Case DC - higher, big class = better odds, this goes for everything in here

some thoughts in the quote from someone who bid NY and DC from UVA

your best bets are probably gibson kirkland JD wiley sidley

curious what gpa makes you think you're 5-7% given uva doesn't tell you that sort of info

def can go multiple offices for kirkland and sidley, at least as of last year

[Anonymous User]

2. Cov DC - very liberal
5. Williams & Connolly - not for regulatory
6. Arnold & Porter DC - very liberal
11. Hogan DC - should be higher
13. Wiley Rein - should be higher, regulatory and conservative
15. Cleary NY - do they let you bid two offices? check; they didn't previously
18. STB NY - good safety
19. Jones Day DC - should be higher
20. Kirkland Chicago - confirm can do >1 office?
21. Sidley Chicago - same; DC should
23. Quinn DC - delete
24. PW DC - litigation is liberal there...
30. Caplin & Drysdale DC - delete, only does tax
31. McGuireWoods DC - all the dc firms in your 30s should be higher imo... why put chicago over these...?
43. White & Case DC - higher, big class = better odds, this goes for everything in here

some thoughts in the quote from someone who bid NY and DC from UVA

your best bets are probably gibson kirkland JD wiley sidley

curious what gpa makes you think you're 5-7% given uva doesn't tell you that sort of info

This is OP.

The 5-7 % mark is an educated guess based on conversations with upperclassmen and the old data leak. I suppose you could increase the confidence interval by making it 5-10 %.

To clarify, I don't want political/ideological affiliation to be the primary filter in these decisions (aside from avoiding progressive-aligned lit boutiques). Moreover, I'm not sure that each characterization is totally accurate. Not disparaging your advice, which is helpful, but several upperclassmen with very desirable conservative appellate clerkships summered at cov, and PW DC seems to have a decent contingent of conservatives.

[Anonymous User]

This is OP.

I updated the bidlist in the original post based on these very helpful suggestions. TL;DR: I removed all chicago firms (which I will likely bid in the supplemental bidding only), reordered the firms based on the suggestions made above (eg moving up Mayer DC and JD DC) and added several other DC firms with either strong appellate practices (MoFo, Orrick, HAK) or large classes (White & Case). If anyone has any other feedback, I'm all ears.

[Anonymous User]

Taking off Covington out of a misguided belief it's too liberal would be incredibly stupid

[Anonymous User]

Taking off Covington out of a misguided belief it's too liberal would be incredibly stupid

+1. Looking through their DC ranks in the class years I'm familiar with, I see at least a handful of devoted fed soc types.

[Anonymous User]

2. Cov DC - very liberal
5. Williams & Connolly - not for regulatory
6. Arnold & Porter DC - very liberal
11. Hogan DC - should be higher
13. Wiley Rein - should be higher, regulatory and conservative
15. Cleary NY - do they let you bid two offices? check; they didn't previously
18. STB NY - good safety
19. Jones Day DC - should be higher
20. Kirkland Chicago - confirm can do >1 office?
21. Sidley Chicago - same; DC should
23. Quinn DC - delete
24. PW DC - litigation is liberal there...
30. Caplin & Drysdale DC - delete, only does tax
31. McGuireWoods DC - all the dc firms in your 30s should be higher imo... why put chicago over these...?
43. White & Case DC - higher, big class = better odds, this goes for everything in here

some thoughts in the quote from someone who bid NY and DC from UVA

your best bets are probably gibson kirkland JD wiley sidley

curious what gpa makes you think you're 5-7% given uva doesn't tell you that sort of info

PW DC is led by Kannon Shanmugam—it’s a conservative-leaning appeals group and hires students going to top conservative clerkships. I can’t speak to all of this but I think that’s a red flag re: the accuracy of the advice (and you should definitely bid Cov and A&P).

[Anonymous User]

Genuinely curious - do UVA students turn down offers from Cleary NY? I don't think UVA has been represented in their past summer programs for quite some time now. And yes I heard of aquagirl, I just find it hard to believe the firm would hold it against the school for years to come.

[Anonymous User]

Genuinely curious - do UVA students turn down offers from Cleary NY? I don't think UVA has been represented in their past summer programs for quite some time now. And yes I heard of aquagirl, I just find it hard to believe the firm would hold it against the school for years to come.

This is OP.

My intuition is that, in general, fewer students at UVA are interested in NYC biglaw. I'm not aware of any prejudice against Cleary in particular. For example, we're much better represented in the top DC shops than in NYC V10s (which have historically been dominated by Columbia, NYU, and Harvard, to my knowledge).

[sanfranciscobiglaw]

2. Cov DC - very liberal
5. Williams & Connolly - not for regulatory
6. Arnold & Porter DC - very liberal
11. Hogan DC - should be higher
13. Wiley Rein - should be higher, regulatory and conservative
15. Cleary NY - do they let you bid two offices? check; they didn't previously
18. STB NY - good safety
19. Jones Day DC - should be higher
20. Kirkland Chicago - confirm can do >1 office?
21. Sidley Chicago - same; DC should
23. Quinn DC - delete
24. PW DC - litigation is liberal there...
30. Caplin & Drysdale DC - delete, only does tax
31. McGuireWoods DC - all the dc firms in your 30s should be higher imo... why put chicago over these...?
43. White & Case DC - higher, big class = better odds, this goes for everything in here

some thoughts in the quote from someone who bid NY and DC from UVA

your best bets are probably gibson kirkland JD wiley sidley

curious what gpa makes you think you're 5-7% given uva doesn't tell you that sort of info

This is OP.

The 5-7 % mark is an educated guess based on conversations with upperclassmen and the old data leak. I suppose you could increase the confidence interval by making it 5-10 %.

To clarify, I don't want political/ideological affiliation to be the primary filter in these decisions (aside from avoiding progressive-aligned lit boutiques). Moreover, I'm not sure that each characterization is totally accurate. Not disparaging your advice, which is helpful, but several upperclassmen with very desirable conservative appellate clerkships summered at cov, and PW DC seems to have a decent contingent of conservatives.

Whether you feel comfortable socially at your firm should be a large consideration Don’t discount it

What I meant re Paul comma weiss is that its firm wide litigation group is proudly liberal … again, being comfortable socially is essential for enjoying the job imo, So do with that what you will