Does summer program kill junior associates' free time Forum

[hal471]

I'm a first year at a big law firm that hires very large summer classes and has frequent summer events (2, 3X a week when I summered). I'm sure much of the expectation for dinners and happy hours falls on juniors. I know recruiting is important and I want to help make the summers feel comfortable at the firm, but I am an introvert and feel like I barely have any free time nowadays as it is. Do work expectations slow down in the summer, or am I just about to be spending all of my time with coworkers and law students? Would love to hear any anecdotes on whether associates find enjoyment in the summer program.

[Anonymous User]

When I was a first-year at a biglaw firm in NYC, juniors were invited to many of the summer associate events but attendance was not mandatory. Work definitely did not slow down to accommodate summer events. If you didn't go to an event because you had too much work or because you were busy for some other reason or because you simply didn't feel like it, no one cared. (Probably, no one even noticed.) If you signed up to be an associate mentor to a summer, then you should probably make an effort to get to know that person and take them out to lunch a couple of times, but that's where the obligations end really.

[Anonymous User]

tbh im looking forward to making up missing 2L summer with this summer's events/lunches

[Anonymous User]

In a non NYC/DC major market, so take this with a grain of salt. I know juniors who skipped all summer program events and are doing just fine. I think that will be even more common this year as some continue to try to minimize COVID exposure. Point is, I don't think anybody is going to care if you don't "pitch in." You're not going to get the talking to or fired. At most, a few of your colleagues (probably fellow juniors, maybe a partner or two) will tell you how much you're missing out, to which you can just make up some bullshit excuse about work/life/COVID.

What's your end goal? Helping with summers is one of those "firm citizenship" things that the firm will pressure you to do, but are ultimately optional unless you want to make partner. Even then, you can check the firm citizenship box in many ways other than helping woo junior attorneys that are already halfway there.

[Anonymous User]

Midlevel who never goes to social events nor to summer activities and never has. I don't think it has done my standing at the firm any good, but the negatives probably aren't massive either. I have set up a few one-on-one lunches and coffee sessions with juniors and summers (I'm a massive introvert) though. But yeah, never felt the pressure to join aside from some more senior social butterflies.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a first year at a big law firm that hires very large summer classes and has frequent summer events (2, 3X a week when I summered). I'm sure much of the expectation for dinners and happy hours falls on juniors. I know recruiting is important and I want to help make the summers feel comfortable at the firm, but I am an introvert and feel like I barely have any free time nowadays as it is. Do work expectations slow down in the summer, or am I just about to be spending all of my time with coworkers and law students? Would love to hear any anecdotes on whether associates find enjoyment in the summer program.

Wait a second - you had summer events 3 times a week during 2020? Seriously?

[Anonymous User]

I'm a first year at a big law firm that hires very large summer classes and has frequent summer events (2, 3X a week when I summered). I'm sure much of the expectation for dinners and happy hours falls on juniors. I know recruiting is important and I want to help make the summers feel comfortable at the firm, but I am an introvert and feel like I barely have any free time nowadays as it is. Do work expectations slow down in the summer, or am I just about to be spending all of my time with coworkers and law students? Would love to hear any anecdotes on whether associates find enjoyment in the summer program.

Wait a second - you had summer events 3 times a week during 2020? Seriously?

They could have clerked and summered in 2019.

[hal471]

I'm a first year at a big law firm that hires very large summer classes and has frequent summer events (2, 3X a week when I summered). I'm sure much of the expectation for dinners and happy hours falls on juniors. I know recruiting is important and I want to help make the summers feel comfortable at the firm, but I am an introvert and feel like I barely have any free time nowadays as it is. Do work expectations slow down in the summer, or am I just about to be spending all of my time with coworkers and law students? Would love to hear any anecdotes on whether associates find enjoyment in the summer program.

Wait a second - you had summer events 3 times a week during 2020? Seriously?

They could have clerked and summered in 2019.

Yes, I summered in 2019.

[Anonymous User]

I'm wondering the same thing. I've already been scheduled for some activities and events. I'm sure it's fun for them to go axe throwing but if I'm billing 50 hours a week is really rather not.

[Anonymous User]

Really can’t see how recruiting could force a partner-track associate, who is busy billing, to show up to anything. But if you’re not busy it’s a good thing to do.

If someone is awkward enough that they may make summers feel uncomfortable, e.g. like they’re being hit on, then they should probably stay home. Ditto for people who can’t have one drink without having 20.

Personally I have no interest in interacting with any summers, but if someone introduces themselves to me, or is staffed on one of my matters, I will be friendly to them

[attorney589753]

This is one of the funny areas of law firming. Will partners care? Well, the partners you work with will care more that you stay at your desk and get your work done, while the partners in charge of recruiting will appreciate seeing you show up to events. Should you care and take an active mentoring role? Well, they're not paying you to be at the event, but it's also a way you might build a human relationship with an incoming junior (assuming you're still at the firm by the time they come back). My approach was to take middle ground: Show up to the most appealing few events, especially the ones close to the office and with casual dinner, but skip out on longer events. I tried to get to know some of the summers while not trying to meet all of them. You can also show up late (or leave early) and get 90% of the credit for half the time (just tell people you have to leave for a call; universally accepted). I never cancelled an important personal life event to attend a summer event because that seemed backwards.

[Anonymous User]

This is one of the funny areas of law firming. Will partners care? Well, the partners you work with will care more that you stay at your desk and get your work done, while the partners in charge of recruiting will appreciate seeing you show up to events. Should you care and take an active mentoring role? Well, they're not paying you to be at the event, but it's also a way you might build a human relationship with an incoming junior (assuming you're still at the firm by the time they come back). My approach was to take middle ground: Show up to the most appealing few events, especially the ones close to the office and with casual dinner, but skip out on longer events. I tried to get to know some of the summers while not trying to meet all of them. You can also show up late (or leave early) and get 90% of the credit for half the time (just tell people you have to leave for a call; universally accepted). I never cancelled an important personal life event to attend a summer event because that seemed backwards.

Ugh what if the recruiting partner is also your staffing partner?

Mainly I find it annoying the way it's framed as if it's fun for us. It's fun for the summers. It's work for us, and we don't even get credit for billables. Let the partners do it if they care so much.

I also don't think it's useful for relationships. In a year and a half (2.5 years for 1Ls, who will summer at higher ranked firms next year and disappear) we'll have plenty of time to get to know each other. The way turnover works these days, it'll be a completely different team.

But w/e it is what it is, middle ground is the best approach.

[attorney589753]

This is one of the funny areas of law firming. Will partners care? Well, the partners you work with will care more that you stay at your desk and get your work done, while the partners in charge of recruiting will appreciate seeing you show up to events. Should you care and take an active mentoring role? Well, they're not paying you to be at the event, but it's also a way you might build a human relationship with an incoming junior (assuming you're still at the firm by the time they come back). My approach was to take middle ground: Show up to the most appealing few events, especially the ones close to the office and with casual dinner, but skip out on longer events. I tried to get to know some of the summers while not trying to meet all of them. You can also show up late (or leave early) and get 90% of the credit for half the time (just tell people you have to leave for a call; universally accepted). I never cancelled an important personal life event to attend a summer event because that seemed backwards.

Ugh what if the recruiting partner is also your staffing partner?

Mainly I find it annoying the way it's framed as if it's fun for us. It's fun for the summers. It's work for us, and we don't even get credit for billables. Let the partners do it if they care so much.

I also don't think it's useful for relationships. In a year and a half (2.5 years for 1Ls, who will summer at higher ranked firms next year and disappear) we'll have plenty of time to get to know each other. The way turnover works these days, it'll be a completely different team.

But w/e it is what it is, middle ground is the best approach.

I think the partners kind of have to frame it as fun for themselves as much as for you. Being partner requires a lot of non-billable work: Networking, recruiting, management, client relationships. Is that work? Well, it's more fun to go to dinner than to markup a merger agreement, but it's not fun (at least to me) to have to go to a dinner, get home at 11pm, and then review a markup after you're three cocktails in. I think the sort of people who view these events as "fun" have the sort of personality that's suitable for partnership, and people who view the events more as a chore are never going to "love" their law firm. As with most things in BigLaw, living in the middle probably makes sense.

[Anonymous User]

I think the partners kind of have to frame it as fun for themselves as much as for you. Being partner requires a lot of non-billable work: Networking, recruiting, management, client relationships. Is that work? Well, it's more fun to go to dinner than to markup a merger agreement, but it's not fun (at least to me) to have to go to a dinner, get home at 11pm, and then review a markup after you're three cocktails in. I think the sort of people who view these events as "fun" have the sort of personality that's suitable for partnership, and people who view the events more as a chore are never going to "love" their law firm. As with most things in BigLaw, living in the middle probably makes sense.

Yeah but the partners aren't judged by hours, they are judged by bringing in business and general firm governance, of which recruiting is part. I need to make x hours, and I don't get credit for non billable firm work. A bit different.

[Anonymous User]

At my V10-20 it just doesn't matter how many of these you attend.

[Anonymous User]

Having been in biglaw for over a half decade (since left) and been through the cycle many times, this is my experience:

If you're truly swamped with billable work, that reigns supreme and nothing will counteract that. I know people who made partner at very selective firms having done relatively little summer associate stuff while they were associates.

If you have some time (which includes regular 2000-a-year associates and anyone below), you'll be expected to attend a bunch of summer associate activities. Maybe you can get out an event here or there, but if you're constantly turning things down, people will notice.

Ultimately, if there's a conflict between the summer committee versus those who give you work, absolutely prioritize those who give you work. Doing a bunch of summer stuff won't do much for you if times get tough or the firm is making cuts. Having a rainmaker protect you is all that matters. Yeah, it's nice to have the summer committee vouch for all of the nonbillable work you're doing, but in the end, all firms really care about is billable work, so you need to make sure that doesn't slip at all.