Corporate Midlevel - Do You Also Feel This Way? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Tried searching but didn't see anything on point -- I'm a 4th year associate at a v20ish that does mostly M&A and some capital markets. I feel like I don't know how to do a damned thing. I was a strong junior, got great/top reviews, felt like I was an excellent "follower" and could pick up assignments and tasks. But this transition to leading deals/making decisions has made me feel clueless.

I am close to panicking that I can't keep up this charade much longer. The thought of leading a full M&A transaction or capital markets deal (beyond something simple) is stressing me out of my gourd.

Is this normal or am I screwed?

[Anonymous User]

Tried searching but didn't see anything on point -- I'm a 4th year associate at a v20ish that does mostly M&A and some capital markets. I feel like I don't know how to do a damned thing. I was a strong junior, got great/top reviews, felt like I was an excellent "follower" and could pick up assignments and tasks. But this transition to leading deals/making decisions has made me feel clueless.

I am close to panicking that I can't keep up this charade much longer. The thought of leading a full M&A transaction or capital markets deal (beyond something simple) is stressing me out of my gourd.

Is this normal or am I screwed?

Litigation 5th year checking in. This could describe me to a T. As a junior I was an excellent researcher, could draft small portions of motions when explained to me where/how they fit into the bigger picture -- as you said, an excellent "follower". But I am now being relied on to lead discovery and draft motions with very little input from above, and I feel like I'm faking proficiency while panicking on the inside because I have very little clue how to do any of this and am constantly worried that someone will notice.

The good news is that I think our experiences are not all that different from most other midlevels. Everyone's transition differs based on specific matters/personnel/etc., but the common thread is that people learn by doing and feel uneasy the first few times doing new types of work. When legitimately lost, I think it is a sign of strength, not weakness, to go to someone more senior and explain that this is the first time you are doing this particular thing and ask them to please point you in the right direction. It can also be helpful to have a colleague in the group (either slightly more senior or same seniority as you) who is not on the same matter but who you can go to to ask questions about how to do certain kinds of work, whether they have ever seen x, y, or z, etc.

If nothing else, I hope it's helpful to know that you are not alone. Good luck!

[Anonymous User]

Tried searching but didn't see anything on point -- I'm a 4th year associate at a v20ish that does mostly M&A and some capital markets. I feel like I don't know how to do a damned thing. I was a strong junior, got great/top reviews, felt like I was an excellent "follower" and could pick up assignments and tasks. But this transition to leading deals/making decisions has made me feel clueless.

I am close to panicking that I can't keep up this charade much longer. The thought of leading a full M&A transaction or capital markets deal (beyond something simple) is stressing me out of my gourd.

Is this normal or am I screwed?

Do you have significant experience as a junior in the types of deals you’re being asked to help lead?

[Anonymous User]

Tried searching but didn't see anything on point -- I'm a 4th year associate at a v20ish that does mostly M&A and some capital markets. I feel like I don't know how to do a damned thing. I was a strong junior, got great/top reviews, felt like I was an excellent "follower" and could pick up assignments and tasks. But this transition to leading deals/making decisions has made me feel clueless.

I am close to panicking that I can't keep up this charade much longer. The thought of leading a full M&A transaction or capital markets deal (beyond something simple) is stressing me out of my gourd.

Is this normal or am I screwed?

Do you have significant experience as a junior in the types of deals you’re being asked to help lead?

I wouldn’t say significant. My first couple of years were more high yield debt, and the last year has been M&A. Overall I feel like I’ve done “every type of corporate deal once” if that makes sense.

[attorney589753]

Tried searching but didn't see anything on point -- I'm a 4th year associate at a v20ish that does mostly M&A and some capital markets. I feel like I don't know how to do a damned thing. I was a strong junior, got great/top reviews, felt like I was an excellent "follower" and could pick up assignments and tasks. But this transition to leading deals/making decisions has made me feel clueless.

I am close to panicking that I can't keep up this charade much longer. The thought of leading a full M&A transaction or capital markets deal (beyond something simple) is stressing me out of my gourd.

Is this normal or am I screwed?

I think it's normal. As you move up in the associates ranks the good + bad news is that there's always a new skill to learn. And it's pretty difficult to be good at that skill the first five times you do it — we all need reps. Whether that's leading a team, leading an issues list call, negotiating term sheet points with a partner, or attending a board meeting — no one is going to be great at it their first time. The key is how do you perform the fifth or tenth time you're doing it. For better or worse, the law firm model is to just keep getting thrown into the fire, so it's a feature (not a bug) that you should feel clueless and over your skis every few years. This is doubly so in environments where attrition has been high at mid and senior level. My practical suggestion: After taking a deep breath, try to find a few quiet minutes to organize your thoughts. Exactly what are you being asked to do, can you break it down into smaller tasks or create a checklist, and then look at that list and see how much of it is truly new versus how much you actually have experience. And if there is an item or two where you have no clue, reach out to someone else at the firm for some guidance — and now your request is really targeted so you're going to get better help/advice.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a 4th year also at a V20 doing M&A and yes I do feel like a chicken with my head cut off. I know that this is “normal” but that doesn’t help the fact that it still feels like crap most of the time. I’ve been struggling a lot lately with setting boundaries, and I haven’t felt like myself in a very long time.

[Anonymous User]

I am a 2018 at a V10 and don’t feel this way. You need more reps.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a junior so I guess I'll see if I feel this way. But it does seem like a lot of the stuff we're asked to do is not really useful for future training. I'm not sure I understand the model. Wouldn't it be more efficient to have more secretaries and paralegals who are trained to do stuff like take notes, put together a sig packet, update final documents?

Tbc am not complaining about being asked to do administrative tasks, heck I'll work in 7/11 if you pay me 215k for it. But I think it's connected. The work flow is structured so juniors, seniors, partners are all sort of doing completely different things. If juniors function as paralegals they aren't being trained to run deals.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a 4th year also at a V20 doing M&A and yes I do feel like a chicken with my head cut off. I know that this is “normal” but that doesn’t help the fact that it still feels like crap most of the time. I’ve been struggling a lot lately with setting boundaries, and I haven’t felt like myself in a very long time.

Amusing. I actually have the opposite feeling - that the work is so mindnumbingly boring and easy, it is just shocking that they force you to do 3 years of law school for a job a 17 year old could do. I mean, there is some getting used to it involved, but at the end of the day you are just a clerk for the partners, and even the partners are basically just doing the same basic thing over and over again with sickening frequency.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a 4th year also at a V20 doing M&A and yes I do feel like a chicken with my head cut off. I know that this is “normal” but that doesn’t help the fact that it still feels like crap most of the time. I’ve been struggling a lot lately with setting boundaries, and I haven’t felt like myself in a very long time.

Amusing. I actually have the opposite feeling - that the work is so mindnumbingly boring and easy, it is just shocking that they force you to do 3 years of law school for a job a 17 year old could do. I mean, there is some getting used to it involved, but at the end of the day you are just a clerk for the partners, and even the partners are basically just doing the same basic thing over and over again with sickening frequency.

Sounds like you have a pretty great gig wherever you are if your only complaint is that the work is mind numbingly boring and easy. But also sounds like you’re not getting very substantive work if that’s the case.

[Anonymous User]

I am a 2018 at a V10 and don’t feel this way. You need more reps.

Ah yes I love dealing with this type of 4th year.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a 4th year also at a V20 doing M&A and yes I do feel like a chicken with my head cut off. I know that this is “normal” but that doesn’t help the fact that it still feels like crap most of the time. I’ve been struggling a lot lately with setting boundaries, and I haven’t felt like myself in a very long time.

Amusing. I actually have the opposite feeling - that the work is so mindnumbingly boring and easy, it is just shocking that they force you to do 3 years of law school for a job a 17 year old could do. I mean, there is some getting used to it involved, but at the end of the day you are just a clerk for the partners, and even the partners are basically just doing the same basic thing over and over again with sickening frequency.

Sounds like you have a pretty great gig wherever you are if your only complaint is that the work is mind numbingly boring and easy. But also sounds like you’re not getting very substantive work if that’s the case.

Ya...no...think we may be living in different worlds somehow. In the world I live in, dealing with v10 M&A people, I note that M&A partners are literally some of the dumbest people in the firm, with the weakest academic credentials. Hyperneurotic, obsessively committed to work, capable of racking up huge amounts of billable hours to create painfully long charts, and wildly inconsiderate of their subordinates personal time? Absolutely. But intelligent like the way a good tax lawyer or ERISA lawyer needs to be? Don't make me laugh. These are literally the least intelligent people in the entire firm.

That being the fact, I'm not even sure how it could be possible that M&A work somehow poses some kind of difficult intellectual challenge. I mean, look at the number of total lightweights who are wildly successful rainmakers without being particularly intelligent. If you just hunker down and try to get your bearings, the work itself should not be difficult. The hours, the all nighters, the crazy personalities, the soap opera associate politics, now those are all frustrating to deal with, but the actual hack and slash of M&A work is about as easy as it gets in the law firm world.

[Anonymous User]

I am a 2018 at a V10 and don’t feel this way. You need more reps.

Ah yes I love dealing with this type of 4th year.

It may be that the poster is getting ton of reps, hours, and training/coaching/feedback.

If so, very lucky. Don’t think this is that common.

[Anonymous User]

Uhh sorry for my ignorance but what does reps mean in this context

[otisreadingcomp]

Uhh sorry for my ignorance but what does reps mean in this context

Repetitions. Experience on many deals. It's really the way you learn.

[Anonymous User]

At some point in your career you'll realize that many of the senior associates/partners know much less than you think they do and rely almost entirely on their personal experience in the relatively few deals they've done in their career. Keep doing more deals and the job will get substantially easier/less stressful as you become more confident.

[JTIII]

Uhh sorry for my ignorance but what does reps mean in this context

Repetitions. Experience on many deals. It's really the way you learn.

I agree with this, but do people disagree with the notion that doing deals, particularly as you start getting more responsibility over time, can be stressful and overwhelming? I feel like that is the point OP is making.

[attorney589753]

Uhh sorry for my ignorance but what does reps mean in this context

Repetitions. Experience on many deals. It's really the way you learn.

I agree with this, but do people disagree with the notion that doing deals, particularly as you start getting more responsibility over time, can be stressful and overwhelming? I feel like that is the point OP is making.

Reps are the primary way you get better. You can read about other people's deals and read advice on how to handle a situation but 99% of the time you learn more from doing it yourself. However the ideal situation for learning is to have enough (some extra) time to do things right (especially your first few times doing a task), have enough time to ask good questions, review your own work, and level up gradually. There's a difference between getting reps and being thrown into the deep end with no support (bad for learning).

[Moneytrees]

Uhh sorry for my ignorance but what does reps mean in this context

Repetitions. Experience on many deals. It's really the way you learn.

I agree with this, but do people disagree with the notion that doing deals, particularly as you start getting more responsibility over time, can be stressful and overwhelming? I feel like that is the point OP is making.

Reps are the primary way you get better. You can read about other people's deals and read advice on how to handle a situation but 99% of the time you learn more from doing it yourself. However the ideal situation for learning is to have enough (some extra) time to do things right (especially your first few times doing a task), have enough time to ask good questions, review your own work, and level up gradually. There's a difference between getting reps and being thrown into the deep end with no support (bad for learning).

I would argue that being thrown into the deep end could still good for learning. It's just bad for your mental health lol.

[Anonymous User]

Tried searching but didn't see anything on point -- I'm a 4th year associate at a v20ish that does mostly M&A and some capital markets. I feel like I don't know how to do a damned thing. I was a strong junior, got great/top reviews, felt like I was an excellent "follower" and could pick up assignments and tasks. But this transition to leading deals/making decisions has made me feel clueless.

I am close to panicking that I can't keep up this charade much longer. The thought of leading a full M&A transaction or capital markets deal (beyond something simple) is stressing me out of my gourd.

Is this normal or am I screwed?

V10 7th year here. It is normal. At some point, things just start to click more and more. It might be next year or it might be in three years—it depends on the person and how busy the firm is/willing they are to keep you around.

Try to keep taking on harder or new things each deal as best you can. Try to get contact with seniors and partners so you can learn from what they do right and wrong. The last thing you want is to just manage diligence and work on escrow agreements each deal and never do anything else for years. You should try to take on more if you want to feel like you’re really “getting it” (but zero judgment if you want to coast and move on). You should understand that asking for more responsibility doesn’t always mean you will get the best possible scenario that’s conducive to learning, unfortunately. But you’ll still take tidbits away, and eventually the puzzle will make more sense. For example, I would let you take the first turn of the SPA, knowing that you don’t have the experience with it, but I would need it likely on a quicker fuse because I know I’m going to have to do a ton of work to get it in shape to still meet normal deadlines. So unfortunately you usually won’t have a super long time to do more challenging things, but can learn over time. Sometimes through trial and error unfortunately.

At the end of the day, fake it till you make it is true. Most people, at all levels, don’t 100% know what they’re doing 100% of the time.

[Anonymous User]

I am a 2018 at a V10 and don’t feel this way. You need more reps.

Ah yes I love dealing with this type of 4th year.

What’s the type? To feel more confident, OP should do more. People who wake up in their fourth years wanting to feel less anxious should be encouraged to. That’s all this type of 4th year is trying to do.