Equity Partners - What are your hours like? Forum

[Sackboy]

I know we have a few floating around, so I thought I'd ask the titled question. Obviously also curious about things like V50 (or other relevant distinctions). The way equity is always discussed here is that biglaw partners are grinding it out too. I know at my firm that's not the case (partners I work for do 1,800/yr. or something like that), but I'm curious if that's true elsewhere or if the general line promoted on this fora is true.

[Anonymous User]

Interested

[Lacepiece23]

I know we have a few floating around, so I thought I'd ask the titled question. Obviously also curious about things like V50 (or other relevant distinctions). The way equity is always discussed here is that biglaw partners are grinding it out too. I know at my firm that's not the case (partners I work for do 1,800/yr. or something like that), but I'm curious if that's true elsewhere or if the general line promoted on this fora is true.

I have a good friend who is an EP of a V50 and it’s office managing partner. He was my mentor/boss before he became my friend.

My sense is that he works very hard. He has a sizable book. But there is always something. Networking event, dinner, committee meeting, mentoring, etc.

I doubt he bills more than 1500. But that’s not his job anymore. He’s there to grow the pie. And that means networking and kissing ass. He constantly flies accesos the country to conferences and to meet large institutional clients.

I’m hopeful some EPs will reply. But just an observation I’ve seen.

[Anonymous User]

My parents are very close with an equity partner at a V50 in LA that complains bitterly about having to bill 1800 hours.

[Anonymous User]

Equity partners do have high billable targets. However, they are often the bigger padders in the legal marketplace. I say this as someone who regularly looks at prebills. They have access to all the financial metrics, have knowledge of what clients are willing to pay, and seem to have no compunction with personally billing a previously underbilled matter to the target figure (even when they’ve done zilch). Having said that, they do work their asses off, it’s by no means a simple role. Otherwise we’d all be doing it ourselves.

[Anonymous User]

I am an EP with a management role at my firm. I bill 1,000 hours a year or thereabouts and think that I drastically underbill (mainly forgetting to record time) but it is a different type of billing - I might talk to a dozen clients a day and kind of manage matters a half hour here, a half hour there. Very hard to write all of that time down especially when you are in transit and on the phone for chunks of it.

Of my working hours (which I would put at 3,000+ a year), it breaks down to a third "billable" time, a third business development/client management, a third firm management.

At this point, the job is somewhat all consuming and you have to be cool with that to make it work. You're never really "off" and you have to not just be okay with that but have the drive to seek that out. Not for everyone.

[Anonatty]

I am an EP with a management role at my firm. I bill 1,000 hours a year or thereabouts and think that I drastically underbill (mainly forgetting to record time) but it is a different type of billing - I might talk to a dozen clients a day and kind of manage matters a half hour here, a half hour there. Very hard to write all of that time down especially when you are in transit and on the phone for chunks of it.

Of my working hours (which I would put at 3,000+ a year), it breaks down to a third "billable" time, a third business development/client management, a third firm management.

At this point, the job is somewhat all consuming and you have to be cool with that to make it work. You're never really "off" and you have to not just be okay with that but have the drive to seek that out. Not for everyone.

PP,

Thanks for sharing these figures. Would be curious how you developed the motivation behind "You're never really 'off' and you have to not just be okay with that but have the drive to seek that out." Is it the money, the prestige, something else?

What drives you to make it okay that you're never really "off"?

[Anonymous User]

I am an EP with a management role at my firm. I bill 1,000 hours a year or thereabouts and think that I drastically underbill (mainly forgetting to record time) but it is a different type of billing - I might talk to a dozen clients a day and kind of manage matters a half hour here, a half hour there. Very hard to write all of that time down especially when you are in transit and on the phone for chunks of it.

Of my working hours (which I would put at 3,000+ a year), it breaks down to a third "billable" time, a third business development/client management, a third firm management.

At this point, the job is somewhat all consuming and you have to be cool with that to make it work. You're never really "off" and you have to not just be okay with that but have the drive to seek that out. Not for everyone.

How much money do you make

[Anonymous User]

[/quote]

PP,

Thanks for sharing these figures. Would be curious how you developed the motivation behind "You're never really 'off' and you have to not just be okay with that but have the drive to seek that out." Is it the money, the prestige, something else?

What drives you to make it okay that you're never really "off"?
[/quote]

I don't know that I ever really have done things any other way. I spent some time in the public sector, too, and approached that similarly even though most around me did not. I am probably a bit of an action junkie and definitely have some sort of affinity for "the game", you kind of have to.

My dad was first generation and started his own business and was similarly driven. I certainly inherited that from him because he used to bring me to the office on weekends with him and I just thought that was normal. Perhaps my children will take a different path, he never pressured me to be like him but it definitely turned out that way.

[Anonymous User]

I am an EP with a management role at my firm. I bill 1,000 hours a year or thereabouts and think that I drastically underbill (mainly forgetting to record time) but it is a different type of billing - I might talk to a dozen clients a day and kind of manage matters a half hour here, a half hour there. Very hard to write all of that time down especially when you are in transit and on the phone for chunks of it.

Of my working hours (which I would put at 3,000+ a year), it breaks down to a third "billable" time, a third business development/client management, a third firm management.

At this point, the job is somewhat all consuming and you have to be cool with that to make it work. You're never really "off" and you have to not just be okay with that but have the drive to seek that out. Not for everyone.

How much money do you make

Enough to know that there is no such thing as "enough" because you aren't doing it for that reason anyway.

[Anonymous User]

I am an EP with a management role at my firm. I bill 1,000 hours a year or thereabouts and think that I drastically underbill (mainly forgetting to record time) but it is a different type of billing - I might talk to a dozen clients a day and kind of manage matters a half hour here, a half hour there. Very hard to write all of that time down especially when you are in transit and on the phone for chunks of it.

Of my working hours (which I would put at 3,000+ a year), it breaks down to a third "billable" time, a third business development/client management, a third firm management.

At this point, the job is somewhat all consuming and you have to be cool with that to make it work. You're never really "off" and you have to not just be okay with that but have the drive to seek that out. Not for everyone.

How much money do you make

Enough to know that there is no such thing as "enough" because you aren't doing it for that reason anyway.

Let's ask this a different way: how does compensation compare for a management partner v a regular equity partner?

[Anonymous User]

I am an EP with a management role at my firm. I bill 1,000 hours a year or thereabouts and think that I drastically underbill (mainly forgetting to record time) but it is a different type of billing - I might talk to a dozen clients a day and kind of manage matters a half hour here, a half hour there. Very hard to write all of that time down especially when you are in transit and on the phone for chunks of it.

Of my working hours (which I would put at 3,000+ a year), it breaks down to a third "billable" time, a third business development/client management, a third firm management.

At this point, the job is somewhat all consuming and you have to be cool with that to make it work. You're never really "off" and you have to not just be okay with that but have the drive to seek that out. Not for everyone.

How much money do you make

Enough to know that there is no such thing as "enough" because you aren't doing it for that reason anyway.

Let's ask this a different way: how does compensation compare for a management partner v a regular equity partner?

You will see a wide disparity on this question. Some very large and profitable firms have partners on the management committee that practice very little law (if any) and are compensated highly. Some still practice a lot and get an additional bonus amount or compensation for management. Some don't get anything extra at all. At my firm, those that are involved in management do make more.

[Anonymous User]

Another second hand anecdote, but a mentor of mine who is a V20 EP but in more of a service role says he targets 2400/yr. He also takes a full 4 weeks of vacation (typically in 2 week increments) and avoids managerial duties like the plague. He's definitely here because he likes the work. I don't know about comp, but he has a nice house, nicer vacation house, and expensive tastes in some other areas.

[Anonymous User]

I am an EP with a management role at my firm. I bill 1,000 hours a year or thereabouts and think that I drastically underbill (mainly forgetting to record time) but it is a different type of billing - I might talk to a dozen clients a day and kind of manage matters a half hour here, a half hour there. Very hard to write all of that time down especially when you are in transit and on the phone for chunks of it.

Of my working hours (which I would put at 3,000+ a year), it breaks down to a third "billable" time, a third business development/client management, a third firm management.

At this point, the job is somewhat all consuming and you have to be cool with that to make it work. You're never really "off" and you have to not just be okay with that but have the drive to seek that out. Not for everyone.

How much money do you make

Enough to know that there is no such thing as "enough" because you aren't doing it for that reason anyway.

Appreciate all your insight, but I don't understand why EPs are so reluctant to answer this question, especially anonymously.

[thisismytlsuername]

I am an EP with a management role at my firm. I bill 1,000 hours a year or thereabouts and think that I drastically underbill (mainly forgetting to record time) but it is a different type of billing - I might talk to a dozen clients a day and kind of manage matters a half hour here, a half hour there. Very hard to write all of that time down especially when you are in transit and on the phone for chunks of it.

Of my working hours (which I would put at 3,000+ a year), it breaks down to a third "billable" time, a third business development/client management, a third firm management.

At this point, the job is somewhat all consuming and you have to be cool with that to make it work. You're never really "off" and you have to not just be okay with that but have the drive to seek that out. Not for everyone.

How much money do you make

Enough to know that there is no such thing as "enough" because you aren't doing it for that reason anyway.

Appreciate all your insight, but I don't understand why EPs are so reluctant to answer this question, especially anonymously.

Because it's embarrassing to (i) say that making $200,000+ per month isn't "enough" and (ii) make that much money compared to the people doing the grunt work for you.

[Anonymous User]

I am an EP with a management role at my firm. I bill 1,000 hours a year or thereabouts and think that I drastically underbill (mainly forgetting to record time) but it is a different type of billing - I might talk to a dozen clients a day and kind of manage matters a half hour here, a half hour there. Very hard to write all of that time down especially when you are in transit and on the phone for chunks of it.

Of my working hours (which I would put at 3,000+ a year), it breaks down to a third "billable" time, a third business development/client management, a third firm management.

At this point, the job is somewhat all consuming and you have to be cool with that to make it work. You're never really "off" and you have to not just be okay with that but have the drive to seek that out. Not for everyone.

How much money do you make

Enough to know that there is no such thing as "enough" because you aren't doing it for that reason anyway.

Appreciate all your insight, but I don't understand why EPs are so reluctant to answer this question, especially anonymously.

Because it's embarrassing to (i) say that making $200,000+ per month isn't "enough" and (ii) make that much money compared to the people doing the grunt work for you.

He/She is anonymous... plus, we all know EPs make a ton more than associates. Some of us would like to get an idea of the numbers to help us make our own career decisions.

[Anonymous User]

I am an EP with a management role at my firm. I bill 1,000 hours a year or thereabouts and think that I drastically underbill (mainly forgetting to record time) but it is a different type of billing - I might talk to a dozen clients a day and kind of manage matters a half hour here, a half hour there. Very hard to write all of that time down especially when you are in transit and on the phone for chunks of it.

Of my working hours (which I would put at 3,000+ a year), it breaks down to a third "billable" time, a third business development/client management, a third firm management.

At this point, the job is somewhat all consuming and you have to be cool with that to make it work. You're never really "off" and you have to not just be okay with that but have the drive to seek that out. Not for everyone.

How much money do you make

Enough to know that there is no such thing as "enough" because you aren't doing it for that reason anyway.

EP PP,

Can you explain your "no such thing as enough" concept a bit further, particularly combined with "you're not doing it for that reason anyway"?

Say you're worth $10 million at 50 [or whatever net worth/age you think makes sense]. In that example, that net worth wouldn't be enough because you aren't doing it for the money anyways?

Would appreciate if you walk through that a bit. No judgment on my end, it's definitely interesting to hear how partners think! I'm personally less interested in the comp numbers and more interested in the reasoning/thought process.

[Anonymous User]

I am an EP with a management role at my firm. I bill 1,000 hours a year or thereabouts and think that I drastically underbill (mainly forgetting to record time) but it is a different type of billing - I might talk to a dozen clients a day and kind of manage matters a half hour here, a half hour there. Very hard to write all of that time down especially when you are in transit and on the phone for chunks of it.

Of my working hours (which I would put at 3,000+ a year), it breaks down to a third "billable" time, a third business development/client management, a third firm management.

At this point, the job is somewhat all consuming and you have to be cool with that to make it work. You're never really "off" and you have to not just be okay with that but have the drive to seek that out. Not for everyone.

How much money do you make

Enough to know that there is no such thing as "enough" because you aren't doing it for that reason anyway.

EP PP,

Can you explain your "no such thing as enough" concept a bit further, particularly combined with "you're not doing it for that reason anyway"?

Say you're worth $10 million at 50 [or whatever net worth/age you think makes sense]. In that example, that net worth wouldn't be enough because you aren't doing it for the money anyways?

Would appreciate if you walk through that a bit. No judgment on my end, it's definitely interesting to hear how partners think! I'm personally less interested in the comp numbers and more interested in the reasoning/thought process.

Not the EP but this is not a hard concept. Every time you get a pay raise, you get accustomed to that new lifestyle and end up wanting more because you now see others living an even wealthier lifestyle. Your average joe says if I could just make six figures I would have everything I want like a house, a new car, and maybe some expensive hobbies like golf or something. But when they do, it's not enough because they see others like biglaw associates making $300-500k getting luxury cars, nicer houses, private school for the kids, etc. They want that. It even happens at law firms. I don't think I need to explain the envy associates have for partners. But even new partners at $1-2m/yr see other partners making $4-5m+ with nicer vacation homes, fancier cars, attendance at important charity events, etc. and work harder to get there. Higher paid partners see the CEOs/CFOs making tens of millions and get jealous of their yachts/jets. And when you're in that range you see big names like movie stars, billionaires, etc. who make even more than that. It's never enough.

[thisismytlsuername]

I am an EP with a management role at my firm. I bill 1,000 hours a year or thereabouts and think that I drastically underbill (mainly forgetting to record time) but it is a different type of billing - I might talk to a dozen clients a day and kind of manage matters a half hour here, a half hour there. Very hard to write all of that time down especially when you are in transit and on the phone for chunks of it.

Of my working hours (which I would put at 3,000+ a year), it breaks down to a third "billable" time, a third business development/client management, a third firm management.

At this point, the job is somewhat all consuming and you have to be cool with that to make it work. You're never really "off" and you have to not just be okay with that but have the drive to seek that out. Not for everyone.

How much money do you make

Enough to know that there is no such thing as "enough" because you aren't doing it for that reason anyway.

Appreciate all your insight, but I don't understand why EPs are so reluctant to answer this question, especially anonymously.

Because it's embarrassing to (i) say that making $200,000+ per month isn't "enough" and (ii) make that much money compared to the people doing the grunt work for you.

He/She is anonymous... plus, we all know EPs make a ton more than associates. Some of us would like to get an idea of the numbers to help us make our own career decisions.

One random anonymous person who may or may not be a management-level Equity Partner at some random firm is more helpful for your career decisions than the myriad other confirmed data out there? Weird.

[Anonymous User]

I am an EP with a management role at my firm. I bill 1,000 hours a year or thereabouts and think that I drastically underbill (mainly forgetting to record time) but it is a different type of billing - I might talk to a dozen clients a day and kind of manage matters a half hour here, a half hour there. Very hard to write all of that time down especially when you are in transit and on the phone for chunks of it.

Of my working hours (which I would put at 3,000+ a year), it breaks down to a third "billable" time, a third business development/client management, a third firm management.

At this point, the job is somewhat all consuming and you have to be cool with that to make it work. You're never really "off" and you have to not just be okay with that but have the drive to seek that out. Not for everyone.

How much money do you make

Enough to know that there is no such thing as "enough" because you aren't doing it for that reason anyway.

Appreciate all your insight, but I don't understand why EPs are so reluctant to answer this question, especially anonymously.

Because it's embarrassing to (i) say that making $200,000+ per month isn't "enough" and (ii) make that much money compared to the people doing the grunt work for you.

He/She is anonymous... plus, we all know EPs make a ton more than associates. Some of us would like to get an idea of the numbers to help us make our own career decisions.

One random anonymous person who may or may not be a management-level Equity Partner at some random firm is more helpful for your career decisions than the myriad other confirmed data out there? Weird.

Who said it was more helpful? It's a data point. Just like anything else. Please stop with the strawman.

[Anonymous User]

I am an EP with a management role at my firm. I bill 1,000 hours a year or thereabouts and think that I drastically underbill (mainly forgetting to record time) but it is a different type of billing - I might talk to a dozen clients a day and kind of manage matters a half hour here, a half hour there. Very hard to write all of that time down especially when you are in transit and on the phone for chunks of it.

Of my working hours (which I would put at 3,000+ a year), it breaks down to a third "billable" time, a third business development/client management, a third firm management.

At this point, the job is somewhat all consuming and you have to be cool with that to make it work. You're never really "off" and you have to not just be okay with that but have the drive to seek that out. Not for everyone.

How much money do you make

Enough to know that there is no such thing as "enough" because you aren't doing it for that reason anyway.

EP PP,

Can you explain your "no such thing as enough" concept a bit further, particularly combined with "you're not doing it for that reason anyway"?

Say you're worth $10 million at 50 [or whatever net worth/age you think makes sense]. In that example, that net worth wouldn't be enough because you aren't doing it for the money anyways?

Would appreciate if you walk through that a bit. No judgment on my end, it's definitely interesting to hear how partners think! I'm personally less interested in the comp numbers and more interested in the reasoning/thought process.

Not the EP but this is not a hard concept. Every time you get a pay raise, you get accustomed to that new lifestyle and end up wanting more because you now see others living an even wealthier lifestyle. Your average joe says if I could just make six figures I would have everything I want like a house, a new car, and maybe some expensive hobbies like golf or something. But when they do, it's not enough because they see others like biglaw associates making $300-500k getting luxury cars, nicer houses, private school for the kids, etc. They want that. It even happens at law firms. I don't think I need to explain the envy associates have for partners. But even new partners at $1-2m/yr see other partners making $4-5m+ with nicer vacation homes, fancier cars, attendance at important charity events, etc. and work harder to get there. Higher paid partners see the CEOs/CFOs making tens of millions and get jealous of their yachts/jets. And when you're in that range you see big names like movie stars, billionaires, etc. who make even more than that. It's never enough.

I don't think it's even the "look up" it's the "look down" that's terrifying. My first job out of college, I made 42k a year. I'm a midlevel now making over $300K and wouldn't even consider an in-house role less than $200k.

Sure, my situation has changed. I'm no longer a single, 22 year old kid. But still, the idea of living on $50K/year seems impossible. The idea of living on $150k seems doable, but it'll hurt. It'll hurt me more than continuing to do biglaw does.

If you told me I'd feel this way when I was making $42k/year, I'd say that's ridiculous. It is ridiculous. The same way we think it's ridiculous for someone making $2mm/year to feel worried about "only" making $1mm/year. But, it's human nature to not want to fall down.

That's just the money aspect of it. There's other aspects as well. Going in-house seems like working on boring shit and being an ancillary function to the business. That's a fall down as well that I don't want to take, and the fall down for a managing partner would be even greater.

If you're asking why doesn't he just quit it all and retire early? I think about this one all the time. I estimate that my spouse and I are about 5 years from where we can retire very comfortably (could arguably retire now and many people do with less). But, we're still only in our early 30s and there's things I want to accomplish in my career. I'm sure the partners have targets/metrics they want to hit as well. The firm is their baby at this point and they want to see it group and prosper. I don't really see it all that different than say a Fortune 500 CEO who might have millions but still is motivated by his mandate.

[Anonymous User]

For transactional partners in major us cities at my firm it looks like the range is 900 to 2600 (with a few outliers on either side) with the median between 1500 and 1600.

Specialists are typically a bit higher since they spend less time on development.

[Anonymous User]

I don't think it's even the "look up" it's the "look down" that's terrifying. My first job out of college, I made 42k a year. I'm a midlevel now making over $300K and wouldn't even consider an in-house role less than $200k.

This is a true statement (the golden handcuffs scenario), but I think the question was geared toward whether enough is ever enough. To me that's not about getting less comp, but rather about always wanting more. The thread is also about how many hours EPs make, so talking about partners going in house as an associate is a pretty big tangent.

[Anonymous User]

I am an EP with a management role at my firm. I bill 1,000 hours a year or thereabouts and think that I drastically underbill (mainly forgetting to record time) but it is a different type of billing - I might talk to a dozen clients a day and kind of manage matters a half hour here, a half hour there. Very hard to write all of that time down especially when you are in transit and on the phone for chunks of it.

Of my working hours (which I would put at 3,000+ a year), it breaks down to a third "billable" time, a third business development/client management, a third firm management.

At this point, the job is somewhat all consuming and you have to be cool with that to make it work. You're never really "off" and you have to not just be okay with that but have the drive to seek that out. Not for everyone.

How much money do you make

Enough to know that there is no such thing as "enough" because you aren't doing it for that reason anyway.

Appreciate all your insight, but I don't understand why EPs are so reluctant to answer this question, especially anonymously.

Can't speak for others but I just have a personal aversion/abhorrence to speaking about money, even anonymously.

As for the "doing the grunt work" comment, I can assure you that nobody in my group worked as many hours as I did last year, associates included. The work is of course different. Associates have the stresses of having to handle a lot of documents, turn things quickly, and report upwards and downwards to a lot of different constituents.

EP's, especially those in management, have similar stresses but tack on the stress of making sure everyone is busy, that the people you hired are integrating well, that the operations work, that clients are happy, that new clients are being brought in, etc. I'm not saying it is more stress, just wildly different stress. It's not for everyone, believe me.

[Anonymous User]

I am an EP with a management role at my firm. I bill 1,000 hours a year or thereabouts and think that I drastically underbill (mainly forgetting to record time) but it is a different type of billing - I might talk to a dozen clients a day and kind of manage matters a half hour here, a half hour there. Very hard to write all of that time down especially when you are in transit and on the phone for chunks of it.

Of my working hours (which I would put at 3,000+ a year), it breaks down to a third "billable" time, a third business development/client management, a third firm management.

At this point, the job is somewhat all consuming and you have to be cool with that to make it work. You're never really "off" and you have to not just be okay with that but have the drive to seek that out. Not for everyone.

How much money do you make

Enough to know that there is no such thing as "enough" because you aren't doing it for that reason anyway.

EP PP,

Can you explain your "no such thing as enough" concept a bit further, particularly combined with "you're not doing it for that reason anyway"?

Say you're worth $10 million at 50 [or whatever net worth/age you think makes sense]. In that example, that net worth wouldn't be enough because you aren't doing it for the money anyways?

Would appreciate if you walk through that a bit. No judgment on my end, it's definitely interesting to hear how partners think! I'm personally less interested in the comp numbers and more interested in the reasoning/thought process.

Honestly, I've never thought of it this way. I've always just wanted to leave a mark somehow and this is the area in which I am directing my energies now, perhaps it will be something different in the future. But I know plenty of people that grinded hard for equity at major firms and had a defined exit plan when they hit a certain amount of money. I get that but that wouldn't work for me, personally.