Unhappy Lawyers -- Why are you unhappy? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I think we are all unhappy sometimes. It’s the lack of flexibility and control over your life (think: having to cancel all your plans because documents came in early and need to be reviewed immediately) that really drains people. WFH improved this a bit for many, and I’ve noticed morale taking a nosedive since RTO. (Not trying to start another debate on the merits of WFH vs. RTO, just sharing my observations.)

I disagree. Personally just because I am able to make and keep plans doesn't change the fact that the work is mind-numbingly boring, the people are difficult, and I am not in a position to make high level decisions. Those factors add up to a job that is just fundamentally misery inducing, even if I am only working a consistent 40 hour a week schedule. The job itself just sucks compared to people who are, for example, corporate executives.

What do you mean by “corporate executives”? Pretty sure people have to work their way up in business before they’re making “high level decisions.” Getting a graduate degree doesn’t let you jump the queue on entry level positions.

(FWIW, “business” isn’t inherently more interesting than law. It bores me to tears. So while “law isn’t business” is a perfectly fair reason for you, personally, to be unhappy in law, it’s not a reason that law is inherently worse than business, which you seem to be suggesting.)

Some of this does definitely reek of people who have no experience with other professions. Almost all of these "corporate executives" spend 20yrs+ to get to that level, and a lot of them still have awfully boring jobs, even if they are making decisions. If anything, law is one of the best way to be a young corporate executive. I've seen tons of folks go into biglaw, make non-equity partner, leave after a couple of years (so, 10yrs total in a traditional system), and land a role as Deputy GC or GC of a Company. If you're a K-JD, that makes you a fairly senior corporate executive as the ripe old age of 35. Now, you're not going to be the DGC or GC of a Fortune 500, but I see people take this path with some sizeable and interesting private companies.

This is a joke. Being a Deputy GC is not the same as being a corporate executive. You are not making strategic decisions to deploy capital for the company and generate increased revenue and net income. You are essentially just the head janitor, charged with keeping the pipes running so the big boys can actually run the company. Go to any investment bank and see who has the better jobs - the partners/directors or the lawyers. Same for PE, same for insurance companies, and same for pretty much any business. Ever wonder why corporate executives don't pine to be lawyers but lawyers are always pining to reach the business side?

[Sackboy]

This is a joke. Being a Deputy GC is not the same as being a corporate executive. You are not making strategic decisions to deploy capital for the company and generate increased revenue and net income. You are essentially just the head janitor, charged with keeping the pipes running so the big boys can actually run the company. Go to any investment bank and see who has the better jobs - the partners/directors or the lawyers. Same for PE, same for insurance companies, and same for pretty much any business. Ever wonder why corporate executives don't pine to be lawyers but lawyers are always pining to reach the business side?

Why are you a lawyer? Go get an MBA if that's what you want to do. The only places lawyers are going to be driving revenue is a law firm (or maybe lit funding, whatever that is). This is like saying it's a joke being a CAO, CIO, CHRO, etc. or their deputies. There are a lot of important decision makers in a company that do not drive revenue.

You seem to be projecting. I'm happy being a lawyer. The folks who pine to be a corporate exec always seem to be the folks who were K-JDs or got history degrees and went to law school because it was easier to get into a T14 than figure out how to get a decent job and attend an M7 MBA in 5 years. You're miserable being a lawyer because you never wanted to be one.

[WilliamFaulkner]

This is a joke. Being a Deputy GC is not the same as being a corporate executive. You are not making strategic decisions to deploy capital for the company and generate increased revenue and net income. You are essentially just the head janitor, charged with keeping the pipes running so the big boys can actually run the company. Go to any investment bank and see who has the better jobs - the partners/directors or the lawyers. Same for PE, same for insurance companies, and same for pretty much any business. Ever wonder why corporate executives don't pine to be lawyers but lawyers are always pining to reach the business side?

Why are you a lawyer? Go get an MBA if that's what you want to do. The only places lawyers are going to be driving revenue is a law firm (or maybe lit funding, whatever that is). This is like saying it's a joke being a CAO, CIO, CHRO, etc. or their deputies. There are a lot of important decision makers in a company that do not drive revenue.

You seem to be projecting. I'm happy being a lawyer. The folks who pine to be a corporate exec always seem to be the folks who were K-JDs or got history degrees and went to law school because it was easier to get into a T14 than figure out how to get a decent job and attend an M7 MBA in 5 years. You're miserable being a lawyer because you never wanted to be one.

With all due respect, let's not have this thread devolve into an argument about whether it is better to be a businessperson or lawyer. Those reading this thread will be too late in the game to switch up their careers so drastically, and I am hoping to document anecdata about what *not* to do in order to be happy in the legal profession.

[Sackboy]

Why are you a lawyer? Go get an MBA if that's what you want to do. The only places lawyers are going to be driving revenue is a law firm (or maybe lit funding, whatever that is). This is like saying it's a joke being a CAO, CIO, CHRO, etc. or their deputies. There are a lot of important decision makers in a company that do not drive revenue.

You seem to be projecting. I'm happy being a lawyer. The folks who pine to be a corporate exec always seem to be the folks who were K-JDs or got history degrees and went to law school because it was easier to get into a T14 than figure out how to get a decent job and attend an M7 MBA in 5 years. You're miserable being a lawyer because you never wanted to be one.

With all due respect, let's not have this thread devolve into an argument about whether it is better to be a businessperson or lawyer. Those reading this thread will be too late in the game to switch up their careers so drastically, and I am hoping to document anecdata about what *not* to do in order to be happy in the legal profession.

With all due respect, that's not remotely the point of my post. It's better to be a business person if you want to be a business person. It's better to be a lawyer if you want to be a lawyer. That's the sole point. If you choose to be a lawyer but want to be a business person, then, yes, you are going to hate being a lawyer.

[veers]

Why are you a lawyer? Go get an MBA if that's what you want to do. The only places lawyers are going to be driving revenue is a law firm (or maybe lit funding, whatever that is). This is like saying it's a joke being a CAO, CIO, CHRO, etc. or their deputies. There are a lot of important decision makers in a company that do not drive revenue.

You seem to be projecting. I'm happy being a lawyer. The folks who pine to be a corporate exec always seem to be the folks who were K-JDs or got history degrees and went to law school because it was easier to get into a T14 than figure out how to get a decent job and attend an M7 MBA in 5 years. You're miserable being a lawyer because you never wanted to be one.

With all due respect, let's not have this thread devolve into an argument about whether it is better to be a businessperson or lawyer. Those reading this thread will be too late in the game to switch up their careers so drastically, and I am hoping to document anecdata about what *not* to do in order to be happy in the legal profession.

With all due respect, that's not remotely the point of my post. It's better to be a business person if you want to be a business person. It's better to be a lawyer if you want to be a lawyer. That's the sole point. If you choose to be a lawyer but want to be a business person, then, yes, you are going to hate being a lawyer.

Missing the point. Compare the happiness level of successful lawyers and business executives. V10 equity partners have absolutely miserable lives, often multiple divorces, are often obese, and are at the beck and call of their clients. They may put on a good façade, but many hate their lives. Business executives often have decent hours, lots of time for golf and families the actually see before 10pm on weeknights. The job satisfaction is just incomparably better on the business side.

[Sad248]

I think we are all unhappy sometimes. It’s the lack of flexibility and control over your life (think: having to cancel all your plans because documents came in early and need to be reviewed immediately) that really drains people. WFH improved this a bit for many, and I’ve noticed morale taking a nosedive since RTO. (Not trying to start another debate on the merits of WFH vs. RTO, just sharing my observations.)

I disagree. Personally just because I am able to make and keep plans doesn't change the fact that the work is mind-numbingly boring, the people are difficult, and I am not in a position to make high level decisions. Those factors add up to a job that is just fundamentally misery inducing, even if I am only working a consistent 40 hour a week schedule. The job itself just sucks compared to people who are, for example, corporate executives.

What do you mean by “corporate executives”? Pretty sure people have to work their way up in business before they’re making “high level decisions.” Getting a graduate degree doesn’t let you jump the queue on entry level positions.

(FWIW, “business” isn’t inherently more interesting than law. It bores me to tears. So while “law isn’t business” is a perfectly fair reason for you, personally, to be unhappy in law, it’s not a reason that law is inherently worse than business, which you seem to be suggesting.)

Some of this does definitely reek of people who have no experience with other professions. Almost all of these "corporate executives" spend 20yrs+ to get to that level, and a lot of them still have awfully boring jobs, even if they are making decisions. If anything, law is one of the best way to be a young corporate executive. I've seen tons of folks go into biglaw, make non-equity partner, leave after a couple of years (so, 10yrs total in a traditional system), and land a role as Deputy GC or GC of a Company. If you're a K-JD, that makes you a fairly senior corporate executive as the ripe old age of 35. Now, you're not going to be the DGC or GC of a Fortune 500, but I see people take this path with some sizeable and interesting private companies.

Yeah, most people do not have exciting jobs. Most people I know have standard 9-5 jobs and none of them are like "Oh yeah, great day at the office today!" No, it's "at least it pays the bills."

I think lawyers, educated and superior beings we are, expect our jobs supposed to be amazing, intellectual experiences. And of course, those jobs are out there, but they're very rare. Only difference between biglaw lawyers and your average joe, is the massive salary (okay, and the crazy hour sometimes). It's going to be boring and rote, deal with it.

[Anonymous User]

Why are you a lawyer? Go get an MBA if that's what you want to do. The only places lawyers are going to be driving revenue is a law firm (or maybe lit funding, whatever that is). This is like saying it's a joke being a CAO, CIO, CHRO, etc. or their deputies. There are a lot of important decision makers in a company that do not drive revenue.

You seem to be projecting. I'm happy being a lawyer. The folks who pine to be a corporate exec always seem to be the folks who were K-JDs or got history degrees and went to law school because it was easier to get into a T14 than figure out how to get a decent job and attend an M7 MBA in 5 years. You're miserable being a lawyer because you never wanted to be one.

With all due respect, let's not have this thread devolve into an argument about whether it is better to be a businessperson or lawyer. Those reading this thread will be too late in the game to switch up their careers so drastically, and I am hoping to document anecdata about what *not* to do in order to be happy in the legal profession.

With all due respect, that's not remotely the point of my post. It's better to be a business person if you want to be a business person. It's better to be a lawyer if you want to be a lawyer. That's the sole point. If you choose to be a lawyer but want to be a business person, then, yes, you are going to hate being a lawyer.

Missing the point. Compare the happiness level of successful lawyers and business executives. V10 equity partners have absolutely miserable lives, often multiple divorces, are often obese, and are at the beck and call of their clients. They may put on a good façade, but many hate their lives. Business executives often have decent hours, lots of time for golf and families the actually see before 10pm on weeknights. The job satisfaction is just incomparably better on the business side.

Child of a “business executive” and know many others and I can tell you that this is fundamentally not true, at least not in any way that can be spoken of in generalities. I don’t know how you got the idea that “business executives” are golfing by three and yachting with their family all weekend but it isn’t true. High-paid work is high paying because it demands a lot of your time.

[Anonymous User]

Why are you a lawyer? Go get an MBA if that's what you want to do. The only places lawyers are going to be driving revenue is a law firm (or maybe lit funding, whatever that is). This is like saying it's a joke being a CAO, CIO, CHRO, etc. or their deputies. There are a lot of important decision makers in a company that do not drive revenue.

You seem to be projecting. I'm happy being a lawyer. The folks who pine to be a corporate exec always seem to be the folks who were K-JDs or got history degrees and went to law school because it was easier to get into a T14 than figure out how to get a decent job and attend an M7 MBA in 5 years. You're miserable being a lawyer because you never wanted to be one.

With all due respect, let's not have this thread devolve into an argument about whether it is better to be a businessperson or lawyer. Those reading this thread will be too late in the game to switch up their careers so drastically, and I am hoping to document anecdata about what *not* to do in order to be happy in the legal profession.

With all due respect, that's not remotely the point of my post. It's better to be a business person if you want to be a business person. It's better to be a lawyer if you want to be a lawyer. That's the sole point. If you choose to be a lawyer but want to be a business person, then, yes, you are going to hate being a lawyer.

Missing the point. Compare the happiness level of successful lawyers and business executives. V10 equity partners have absolutely miserable lives, often multiple divorces, are often obese, and are at the beck and call of their clients. They may put on a good façade, but many hate their lives. Business executives often have decent hours, lots of time for golf and families the actually see before 10pm on weeknights. The job satisfaction is just incomparably better on the business side.

Child of a “business executive” and know many others and I can tell you that this is fundamentally not true, at least not in any way that can be spoken of in generalities. I don’t know how you got the idea that “business executives” are golfing by three and yachting with their family all weekend but it isn’t true. High-paid work is high paying because it demands a lot of your time.

Compare them to v10 equity partners - obese, divorced, working until 3am, at the beck and call of clients, wasting time mentoring useless juniors, and hating your life every day. Is this how David Solomon lives? Elon Musk? Bill Ackman? Executive team of Metlife or any other major company? C-suite at random mid-size company?

Biglaw partners have a uniquely miserable existence, and it only gets worse as you move up the pyramid, unlike in banking, for example, where as you get more senior the job gets better.

[nixy]

Why are you a lawyer? Go get an MBA if that's what you want to do. The only places lawyers are going to be driving revenue is a law firm (or maybe lit funding, whatever that is). This is like saying it's a joke being a CAO, CIO, CHRO, etc. or their deputies. There are a lot of important decision makers in a company that do not drive revenue.

You seem to be projecting. I'm happy being a lawyer. The folks who pine to be a corporate exec always seem to be the folks who were K-JDs or got history degrees and went to law school because it was easier to get into a T14 than figure out how to get a decent job and attend an M7 MBA in 5 years. You're miserable being a lawyer because you never wanted to be one.

With all due respect, let's not have this thread devolve into an argument about whether it is better to be a businessperson or lawyer. Those reading this thread will be too late in the game to switch up their careers so drastically, and I am hoping to document anecdata about what *not* to do in order to be happy in the legal profession.

With all due respect, that's not remotely the point of my post. It's better to be a business person if you want to be a business person. It's better to be a lawyer if you want to be a lawyer. That's the sole point. If you choose to be a lawyer but want to be a business person, then, yes, you are going to hate being a lawyer.

Missing the point. Compare the happiness level of successful lawyers and business executives. V10 equity partners have absolutely miserable lives, often multiple divorces, are often obese, and are at the beck and call of their clients. They may put on a good façade, but many hate their lives. Business executives often have decent hours, lots of time for golf and families the actually see before 10pm on weeknights. The job satisfaction is just incomparably better on the business side.

holy massive generalization. projection much?

[Anonymous User]

Why am I unhappy? I’m unhappy because everytime I come to this website to slack off, I see people debating what’s V5 V10 / not V5 V10 or it should be YSH not YSHC. I feel pathetic for my myself knowing that a good portion of people in my line of business are morons who love to debate these meaningless BS.

[Anonymous User]

Why are you a lawyer? Go get an MBA if that's what you want to do. The only places lawyers are going to be driving revenue is a law firm (or maybe lit funding, whatever that is). This is like saying it's a joke being a CAO, CIO, CHRO, etc. or their deputies. There are a lot of important decision makers in a company that do not drive revenue.

You seem to be projecting. I'm happy being a lawyer. The folks who pine to be a corporate exec always seem to be the folks who were K-JDs or got history degrees and went to law school because it was easier to get into a T14 than figure out how to get a decent job and attend an M7 MBA in 5 years. You're miserable being a lawyer because you never wanted to be one.

With all due respect, let's not have this thread devolve into an argument about whether it is better to be a businessperson or lawyer. Those reading this thread will be too late in the game to switch up their careers so drastically, and I am hoping to document anecdata about what *not* to do in order to be happy in the legal profession.

With all due respect, that's not remotely the point of my post. It's better to be a business person if you want to be a business person. It's better to be a lawyer if you want to be a lawyer. That's the sole point. If you choose to be a lawyer but want to be a business person, then, yes, you are going to hate being a lawyer.

Missing the point. Compare the happiness level of successful lawyers and business executives. V10 equity partners have absolutely miserable lives, often multiple divorces, are often obese, and are at the beck and call of their clients. They may put on a good façade, but many hate their lives. Business executives often have decent hours, lots of time for golf and families the actually see before 10pm on weeknights. The job satisfaction is just incomparably better on the business side.

Child of a “business executive” and know many others and I can tell you that this is fundamentally not true, at least not in any way that can be spoken of in generalities. I don’t know how you got the idea that “business executives” are golfing by three and yachting with their family all weekend but it isn’t true. High-paid work is high paying because it demands a lot of your time.

Compare them to v10 equity partners - obese, divorced, working until 3am, at the beck and call of clients, wasting time mentoring useless juniors, and hating your life every day. Is this how David Solomon lives? Elon Musk? Bill Ackman? Executive team of Metlife or any other major company? C-suite at random mid-size company?

Biglaw partners have a uniquely miserable existence, and it only gets worse as you move up the pyramid, unlike in banking, for example, where as you get more senior the job gets better.

Curious choices. The three examples you gave are all divorced and work far worse hours than any V10 partner I've ever known.

[Anonymous User]

David Solomon is also playing Lollapalooza, so he wins despite the divorces.

[Anonymous User]

Why are you a lawyer? Go get an MBA if that's what you want to do. The only places lawyers are going to be driving revenue is a law firm (or maybe lit funding, whatever that is). This is like saying it's a joke being a CAO, CIO, CHRO, etc. or their deputies. There are a lot of important decision makers in a company that do not drive revenue.

You seem to be projecting. I'm happy being a lawyer. The folks who pine to be a corporate exec always seem to be the folks who were K-JDs or got history degrees and went to law school because it was easier to get into a T14 than figure out how to get a decent job and attend an M7 MBA in 5 years. You're miserable being a lawyer because you never wanted to be one.

With all due respect, let's not have this thread devolve into an argument about whether it is better to be a businessperson or lawyer. Those reading this thread will be too late in the game to switch up their careers so drastically, and I am hoping to document anecdata about what *not* to do in order to be happy in the legal profession.

With all due respect, that's not remotely the point of my post. It's better to be a business person if you want to be a business person. It's better to be a lawyer if you want to be a lawyer. That's the sole point. If you choose to be a lawyer but want to be a business person, then, yes, you are going to hate being a lawyer.

Missing the point. Compare the happiness level of successful lawyers and business executives. V10 equity partners have absolutely miserable lives, often multiple divorces, are often obese, and are at the beck and call of their clients. They may put on a good façade, but many hate their lives. Business executives often have decent hours, lots of time for golf and families the actually see before 10pm on weeknights. The job satisfaction is just incomparably better on the business side.

Child of a “business executive” and know many others and I can tell you that this is fundamentally not true, at least not in any way that can be spoken of in generalities. I don’t know how you got the idea that “business executives” are golfing by three and yachting with their family all weekend but it isn’t true. High-paid work is high paying because it demands a lot of your time.

Compare them to v10 equity partners - obese, divorced, working until 3am, at the beck and call of clients, wasting time mentoring useless juniors, and hating your life every day. Is this how David Solomon lives? Elon Musk? Bill Ackman? Executive team of Metlife or any other major company? C-suite at random mid-size company?

Biglaw partners have a uniquely miserable existence, and it only gets worse as you move up the pyramid, unlike in banking, for example, where as you get more senior the job gets better.

Elon Musk said he would sleep at the Tesla factory and not shower because he was working so much...

[anon121]

Why are you a lawyer? Go get an MBA if that's what you want to do. The only places lawyers are going to be driving revenue is a law firm (or maybe lit funding, whatever that is). This is like saying it's a joke being a CAO, CIO, CHRO, etc. or their deputies. There are a lot of important decision makers in a company that do not drive revenue.

You seem to be projecting. I'm happy being a lawyer. The folks who pine to be a corporate exec always seem to be the folks who were K-JDs or got history degrees and went to law school because it was easier to get into a T14 than figure out how to get a decent job and attend an M7 MBA in 5 years. You're miserable being a lawyer because you never wanted to be one.

With all due respect, let's not have this thread devolve into an argument about whether it is better to be a businessperson or lawyer. Those reading this thread will be too late in the game to switch up their careers so drastically, and I am hoping to document anecdata about what *not* to do in order to be happy in the legal profession.

With all due respect, that's not remotely the point of my post. It's better to be a business person if you want to be a business person. It's better to be a lawyer if you want to be a lawyer. That's the sole point. If you choose to be a lawyer but want to be a business person, then, yes, you are going to hate being a lawyer.

Missing the point. Compare the happiness level of successful lawyers and business executives. V10 equity partners have absolutely miserable lives, often multiple divorces, are often obese, and are at the beck and call of their clients. They may put on a good façade, but many hate their lives. Business executives often have decent hours, lots of time for golf and families the actually see before 10pm on weeknights. The job satisfaction is just incomparably better on the business side.

Child of a “business executive” and know many others and I can tell you that this is fundamentally not true, at least not in any way that can be spoken of in generalities. I don’t know how you got the idea that “business executives” are golfing by three and yachting with their family all weekend but it isn’t true. High-paid work is high paying because it demands a lot of your time.

Compare them to v10 equity partners - obese, divorced, working until 3am, at the beck and call of clients, wasting time mentoring useless juniors, and hating your life every day. Is this how David Solomon lives? Elon Musk? Bill Ackman? Executive team of Metlife or any other major company? C-suite at random mid-size company?

Biglaw partners have a uniquely miserable existence, and it only gets worse as you move up the pyramid, unlike in banking, for example, where as you get more senior the job gets better.

Why are all your posts anon? Mods should out this person

[Anonymous User]

To the unhappy person who loves the business side. Please go work on the business side and then tell us how happy you are. Throwing weird examples like Bill Ackman out highlight how out of touch you are. You also aren’t a v10 partner so you can’t really comment on their experience. Your basically projecting your misery. Also on obesity, that’s a choice. Plenty of partners who aren’t obese.

[Sackboy]

To the unhappy person who loves the business side. Please go work on the business side and then tell us how happy you are. Throwing weird examples like Bill Ackman out highlight how out of touch you are. You also aren’t a v10 partner so you can’t really comment on their experience. Your basically projecting your misery. Also on obesity, that’s a choice. Plenty of partners who aren’t obese.

Also, for fucks sake, there are options to be a SUCCESSFUL lawyer that makes GREAT money that don't involve being a V10 partner. Like what level of tunnel vision and delusion do you need to be trapped in to not know there are (1) great regional/mid-sized/boutique firms that offer great (like $500K-$1M, but not V10 cash) with a real work life balance, (2) great in-house opportunities (some with great money), and (3) some awesome PI/gov't gigs (above median American income money). But, sure, if your only two options of happiness are a Fortune 500 CEO and a V10 equity partner, then, sure, maybe you'll be miserable. But, maybe, just maybe, you're just a miserable person.

[nixy]

Why are you a lawyer? Go get an MBA if that's what you want to do. The only places lawyers are going to be driving revenue is a law firm (or maybe lit funding, whatever that is). This is like saying it's a joke being a CAO, CIO, CHRO, etc. or their deputies. There are a lot of important decision makers in a company that do not drive revenue.

You seem to be projecting. I'm happy being a lawyer. The folks who pine to be a corporate exec always seem to be the folks who were K-JDs or got history degrees and went to law school because it was easier to get into a T14 than figure out how to get a decent job and attend an M7 MBA in 5 years. You're miserable being a lawyer because you never wanted to be one.

With all due respect, let's not have this thread devolve into an argument about whether it is better to be a businessperson or lawyer. Those reading this thread will be too late in the game to switch up their careers so drastically, and I am hoping to document anecdata about what *not* to do in order to be happy in the legal profession.

With all due respect, that's not remotely the point of my post. It's better to be a business person if you want to be a business person. It's better to be a lawyer if you want to be a lawyer. That's the sole point. If you choose to be a lawyer but want to be a business person, then, yes, you are going to hate being a lawyer.

Missing the point. Compare the happiness level of successful lawyers and business executives. V10 equity partners have absolutely miserable lives, often multiple divorces, are often obese, and are at the beck and call of their clients. They may put on a good façade, but many hate their lives. Business executives often have decent hours, lots of time for golf and families the actually see before 10pm on weeknights. The job satisfaction is just incomparably better on the business side.

Child of a “business executive” and know many others and I can tell you that this is fundamentally not true, at least not in any way that can be spoken of in generalities. I don’t know how you got the idea that “business executives” are golfing by three and yachting with their family all weekend but it isn’t true. High-paid work is high paying because it demands a lot of your time.

Compare them to v10 equity partners - obese, divorced, working until 3am, at the beck and call of clients, wasting time mentoring useless juniors, and hating your life every day. Is this how David Solomon lives? Elon Musk? Bill Ackman? Executive team of Metlife or any other major company? C-suite at random mid-size company?

Biglaw partners have a uniquely miserable existence, and it only gets worse as you move up the pyramid, unlike in banking, for example, where as you get more senior the job gets better.

Elon Musk said he would sleep at the Tesla factory and not shower because he was working so much...

I mean I’ll pass on the billions if it means I have to be Elon Musk.

[WilliamFaulkner]

Can you people stop arguing in this thread. I am trying to collect anecdata concerning the decisions that make lawyers unhappy. For the love of all things holy, please stop.

[nixy]

I don’t know, the arguments in this thread seem like pretty good examples of why lawyers are unhappy.

[Anonymous User]

Can you people stop arguing in this thread. I am trying to collect anecdata concerning the decisions that make lawyers unhappy. For the love of all things holy, please stop.

I'm not unhappy, so I'm not your target audience, but I think I have some insight into why the unhappy people are unhappy. I came to law as a second career (and not just like 2 years as a para or teacher or in IB, but a real career), so I had a good sense of what my boundaries were and how to enforce them. I chose a law school where I got a full scholarship and had lived modestly in school off my savings so was able to graduate with $0 debt. I did well in school so was able to get some gold stars that opened doors for me despite my non YSH law school. Because I had been around the block, I knew myself well enough to know what in the law was interesting to me and what was not, so was able to shut out the "prestige" noise and pointless competition that characterizes a lot of law school/early law practice. I went to a firm where I could do the kind of work I found genuinely interesting, and was able to be choosy about firms so I chose one where the hours were humane and the partners were more or less reasonable in their expectations. I now make a very comfortable amount of money, do work I enjoy and rarely work after 6:30 or on weekends.

By contrast, the unhappy people I have met have some combination of the following: they (1) went to law school after having worked for only a short amount of time so didn't know much about their true work preferences, (2) went to the highest-ranked school they got into or close to it so took on a lot of debt, thereby constraining their choices after graduation, (3) didn't develop a clear sense of what areas of the law they are interested in/what kind of tasks they enjoy doing in school/early practice, instead chasing "prestige", (4) chose areas of the law because they were "hot" or had good exit opps rather than because they were truly interested in the work, and (5) are not good at setting and enforcing boundaries between their personal and professional lives.

[WilliamFaulkner]

Can you people stop arguing in this thread. I am trying to collect anecdata concerning the decisions that make lawyers unhappy. For the love of all things holy, please stop.

I'm not unhappy, so I'm not your target audience, but I think I have some insight into why the unhappy people are unhappy. I came to law as a second career (and not just like 2 years as a para or teacher or in IB, but a real career), so I had a good sense of what my boundaries were and how to enforce them. I chose a law school where I got a full scholarship and had lived modestly in school off my savings so was able to graduate with $0 debt. I did well in school so was able to get some gold stars that opened doors for me despite my non YSH law school. Because I had been around the block, I knew myself well enough to know what in the law was interesting to me and what was not, so was able to shut out the "prestige" noise and pointless competition that characterizes a lot of law school/early law practice. I went to a firm where I could do the kind of work I found genuinely interesting, and was able to be choosy about firms so I chose one where the hours were humane and the partners were more or less reasonable in their expectations. I now make a very comfortable amount of money, do work I enjoy and rarely work after 6:30 or on weekends.

By contrast, the unhappy people I have met have some combination of the following: they (1) went to law school after having worked for only a short amount of time so didn't know much about their true work preferences, (2) went to the highest-ranked school they got into or close to it so took on a lot of debt, thereby constraining their choices after graduation, (3) didn't develop a clear sense of what areas of the law they are interested in/what kind of tasks they enjoy doing in school/early practice, instead chasing "prestige", (4) chose areas of the law because they were "hot" or had good exit opps rather than because they were truly interested in the work, and (5) are not good at setting and enforcing boundaries between their personal and professional lives.

Thanks a ton for your helpful reply, and congrats to you for finding happiness in your work. As a young lawyer, I definitely encourage others reading this to do as this poster did and drown out the "prestige" noise. Doing the most prestigious thing may impress others, but impressing others won't make you happy.

[wldecisions]

By contrast, the unhappy people I have met have some combination of the following: they (1) went to law school after having worked for only a short amount of time so didn't know much about their true work preferences, (2) went to the highest-ranked school they got into or close to it so took on a lot of debt, thereby constraining their choices after graduation, (3) didn't develop a clear sense of what areas of the law they are interested in/what kind of tasks they enjoy doing in school/early practice, instead chasing "prestige", (4) chose areas of the law because they were "hot" or had good exit opps rather than because they were truly interested in the work, and (5) are not good at setting and enforcing boundaries between their personal and professional lives.

Excellent post.

[Anonymous User]

This doesn't apply to me, but I know many unhappy lawyers who are unhappy because they blindly decided to take the highest paying and/or most "prestigious" job(s) without seriously thinking about whether they would enjoy or be fulfilled by the work. So don't do that.

This sort of describes me. I am clerking, and though I would not describe myself as totally unhappy, I am not very fulfilled. As I reflect, I realize that I clerked largely because it is (1) prestigious and (2) educational. I did not consider whether I would be happy living where I am living and performing the work of a clerk. So I identify with this.

Clerking genuinely is prestigious and educational, but it can also be a grind. I’ve learned a ton, and I can tell that it will have large long-term prestige and networking benefits, but burnout on district courts in particular is very common, even if you work for a judge who treats clerks well. And given the power dynamic I imagine working for a judge who treats you poorly must be nearly unbearable. Before I clerked I would say suck it up and clerk for a rough judge if that’s your best offer (as long as they're not Kozinski-level), now I’d say 100% apply again next cycle if necessary.

[Anonymous User]

I think we are all unhappy sometimes. It’s the lack of flexibility and control over your life (think: having to cancel all your plans because documents came in early and need to be reviewed immediately) that really drains people. WFH improved this a bit for many, and I’ve noticed morale taking a nosedive since RTO. (Not trying to start another debate on the merits of WFH vs. RTO, just sharing my observations.)

What I find interesting about this is that what you report may be general to practicing law as opposed to a feature of Big Law or a particular practice.

Yes exactly. I hope that was still helpful because you asked about unhappy lawyers in general. I think it’s hard to escape the type of stress I described unless you’re in a non-litigation government or public interest role. Possibly some in-house roles as well, but certainly not all. However, those jobs pay a lot less, so you may have financial stress as a trade off.

I've met many private-practice complex-commercial litigators who work very regular hours, but they're at firms that are (a) deliberately lifestyle-oriented and often small/low-visibility enough that you likely wouldn't even know they exist without a connection and/or (b) outside of major markets.

Everyone knows about golden handcuffs, but from people I've talked to, it seems at least as important to your long-term health as a private-practice litigator to avoid NYC handcuffs. In whatever midsize city you or your spouse grew up in, the hours will probably be a lot better, and the partnership prospects will almost certainly be astronomically better, and you'll still make way more than you would as an AUSA, etc.

From a law student's perspective, this is really just a subset of the excellent advice above, because to set up a move to this sort of place (either after a stint in BL or directly after school), you have to know you want it. You can wind up at Cravath on accident at a T14, but you can't wind up at Kutak Rock Omaha on accident.

[Anonymous User]

OP: I can really identify with your hyper-rational approach to trying to avoid an unhappy life in the future, and to avoid the pitfalls that seem to make so many people in this profession say they are miserable and filled with regret, but I have become convinced that this approach is itself flawed because of the highly subjective and unpredictable nature of life, meaning, and happiness. People who naturally think in this kind of logical, risk-averse, strategic way are drawn to the law and often excel at it, but it works better in an issue-spotting exam than in trying to plan out a happy and meaningful life.

The reality is that there is a lot in all of our futures that is beyond our knowledge or control. Happiness is itself a very difficult to measure and predict phenomenon (an interesting book if you haven't read it about this topic is Daniel Gilbert's Stumbling On Happiness). Beyond the most basic, obvious advice like "Make time for your family and friends, take care of your health, maintain hobbies and fun things you enjoy," no one here is going to tell you a magic secret to avoiding misfortune in the legal profession and in life. Different people might have ended up happy or unhappy in this or that legal job because of things going on in THEIR lives that by no means will translate to yours. This is actually a great thing about life, because the whole ride would be dull as hell if you could just figure out exactly what the optimal way for your life to be like was, execute it to a T, and have that be that.