comprehensive guide on dining etiquette for summer associates Forum

[Anonymous User]

First gen. Never been to a fancy restaurant. Can anyone refer me to a comprehensive guide on dining etiquette?

[Sackboy]

Literally not a thing. If you've ever eaten at a dinner table with a knife and a fork, you're good.

[Anonymous User]

Don’t get pasta, be wary of handhelds. basically just dont be messy

[Anonymous User]

Literally not a thing. If you've ever eaten at a dinner table with a knife and a fork, you're good.

Thanks!

[Anonymous User]

lol what's wrong with pasta

just be normal tm

[Anonymous User]

First I want to say that you'll likely be fine as long as you don't do anything too crazy like munching with your mouth wide open or spitting while you eat. No firm will no-offer just because of manners. That being said,

BMW - Your bread plate is on your left, entree plate is in the middle, water is on your right.

Look to see what other people order before making your order. Don't order something egregiously expensive.

You use cutlery starting from the outside moving in.

Don't help the waiters. Let them do their thing, but thank them.

Keep your napkin on your lap. Wipe your mouth frequently.

[Anonymous User]

is pasta seriously bad

signed, incoming SA who's really down for some pasta

[Anonymous User]

Biglaw is not classy at all, so you have nothing to worry about.

[Anonymous User]

If you're wearing a suit jacket or a blazer, never button the bottom button. And before you sit down, unbutton the top button. So your jacket should never be buttoned at all when you're sitting. When you're standing, the top button can be either buttoned or unbottoned, but the bottom button should never be buttoned.

[Anonymous User]

I made the original pasta comment

I only said because it’s easy to accidentally stain your clothes with. Otherwise nothing wrong with it, if you don’t care about a stain or you’re not clumsy go for it lol

[Anonymous User]

Not sure if this is still a thing, but when I was a SA in 2015 at the super fancy Manhattan restaurants, they would ask for the women's orders before the men's. This caught me off guard and I found it weird (I'm a male). Once I happened to be out at a firm lunch as the only guy with several women summers and a woman partner and the waiter just skipped me and then came back to me at the end.

[Anonymous User]

If you can't remember the orientation of your silverware and glasses, just wait for someone else to start eating and watch what glass or silverware they grabbed.

But I will bump an earlier poster's "B - M - W," bread upper left, meal plate middle, water and wine upper right.

[Anonymous User]

Don't help the waiters. Let them do their thing, but thank them.

This is probably the correct advice, but I am unable to follow it unless the service is so constant that anything empty/no longer needed gets whisked away without my noticing.

Not mentioned, but knife/fork holding convention differs based on geography/continent. I generally hold the fork tines down in the left hand and knife in the right. At any rate, do not hold the fork tines up in a fist-grip in your right hand and put food into your mouth. Do I myself care? No, but people may be put off and you could call attention to yourself.

Re: meat preparation, you cannot go wrong if you just order it medium rare (for anything not ground) or, even safer, "chef's preference."

Also, as a lifestyle tip, fancy restaurants are great but also a money sink. I generally try to cook at home and spend $1-$5 per meal on average (among those meals), but if you go to a fancy restaurant, you can easily blow hundreds of dollars in one night. I do not often go to them for that reason.

[Anonymous User]

I happen to like medium rare or even rare, but order steak how you like it! They (we) want you to enjoy it, not feel pressured to like something you don't.

[Anonymous User]

Good advice above. Likely nothing to worry about. To me, the biggest turn offs to avoid are: chewing with your mouth open (some might not care but others will be down right disgusted and remember it so just close your mouth when you chew); talking with food in your mouth; messy face and hands (from not using your napkin frequently and unobtrusively); being chatty with waitstaff; ordering super outlier (in terms of $$$) dishes; weird sounds like burping. Unfortunately, some of the above are not uncommon. In my experience, if you didn't have them emphasized to you growing up and are not otherwise sufficiently socially aware to pick up on them, you could reach adulthood and interviews and fancy dinners without anyone telling you otherwise (people don't often correct others, even though it would really help them).

Other stuff is smaller. There are regional variations to how people hold utensils, and compared to the above stuff, it won't matter as an SA. Elbows on table might be a thing to some, but as long as you're not like caveman hunching over table with elbows firmly planted you'll be fine.

[The Lsat Airbender]

Don’t get pasta, be wary of handhelds. basically just dont be messy

French onion soup is another food worth avoiding. Soup in general is a bit tricky if you're nervous about being awkward—it can be noisy as well as messy and it can arrive at the table at weird times (e.g. before anyone else has any food) and you kinda have to dig in immediately lest it get cold.

Miso soup at a sushi place is the exception that proves the rule as it's acceptable to drink straight from the bowl.

[Anonymous User]

Probably goes without saying but as a summer you shouldn't even try to offer to get the bill. If you're out with coworkers, the firm will pay for it and someone else should take care of that.

In the list of minor things: unless you have an allergy don't make substitutions if you can avoid it. Also, don't send food back unless you absolutely have to (e.g., undercooked and unsafe to eat or has something you're allergic to).

One trick - if you're unsure about what you can order (e.g., if it's tapas and you don't know how many or if prices vary significantly), it's polite to ask the table what everyone is thinking. In that situation, I'd pick out a litany of things and then just choose the one (or ones) that matches what everyone else is doing. For example, if I go to a steakhouse for lunch, I typically pick out a steak ($$$) and a salad ($), and then just match the room on what everyone is ordering.

Also, don't be the only one who blows the meal budget. It's easier to do that than you would think if you're the only one ordering multiple drinks (soda included), courses, etc.

Another thing that surprised me - I often have no clue what some the foods/dishes even are. French names, vegetables/cheeses I've never heard of, it's all very confusing. In that case I'd stick with what you know rather than asking. Don't be rude and look it up on your phone.

Note: aside from spending too much $ and not leaving food on your face, most of the things I'm talking about here (and what others have said) are just being overly cautious to avoid offending that one stickler partner who cares about this sort of crap - since you asked. 9/10x nobody cares. You could ask me WTF's a ramp, throw some heavy bows on the table, use your salad fork for a main, and drop spaghetti in your lap and I wouldn't give a flying fuck. But I do know at least one partner who would. But also, you're not going to get no-offered for this stuff alone.

Edit: fixed advice re: unknown food names.

[Anonymous User]

Good advice above. Likely nothing to worry about. To me, the biggest turn offs to avoid are: chewing with your mouth open (some might not care but others will be down right disgusted and remember it so just close your mouth when you chew); talking with food in your mouth; messy face and hands (from not using your napkin frequently and unobtrusively); being chatty with waitstaff; ordering super outlier (in terms of $$$) dishes; weird sounds like burping. Unfortunately, some of the above are not uncommon. In my experience, if you didn't have them emphasized to you growing up and are not otherwise sufficiently socially aware to pick up on them, you could reach adulthood and interviews and fancy dinners without anyone telling you otherwise (people don't often correct others, even though it would really help them).

The other things are reasonable, but chatting with waitstaff? Is that really looked down upon?

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Good advice above. Likely nothing to worry about. To me, the biggest turn offs to avoid are: chewing with your mouth open (some might not care but others will be down right disgusted and remember it so just close your mouth when you chew); talking with food in your mouth; messy face and hands (from not using your napkin frequently and unobtrusively); being chatty with waitstaff; ordering super outlier (in terms of $$$) dishes; weird sounds like burping. Unfortunately, some of the above are not uncommon. In my experience, if you didn't have them emphasized to you growing up and are not otherwise sufficiently socially aware to pick up on them, you could reach adulthood and interviews and fancy dinners without anyone telling you otherwise (people don't often correct others, even though it would really help them).

The other things are reasonable, but chatting with waitstaff? Is that really looked down upon?

IMO yes, but not because they're too lowly to hang out with, but rather because (1) if you're talking to your waiter or waitress, you're not paying attention to the people you're with, and (2) they are at work and have a ton of things to do, so they're likely being polite to you and would like to exit the convo as well.

[Anonymous User]

Good advice above. Likely nothing to worry about. To me, the biggest turn offs to avoid are: chewing with your mouth open (some might not care but others will be down right disgusted and remember it so just close your mouth when you chew); talking with food in your mouth; messy face and hands (from not using your napkin frequently and unobtrusively); being chatty with waitstaff; ordering super outlier (in terms of $$$) dishes; weird sounds like burping. Unfortunately, some of the above are not uncommon. In my experience, if you didn't have them emphasized to you growing up and are not otherwise sufficiently socially aware to pick up on them, you could reach adulthood and interviews and fancy dinners without anyone telling you otherwise (people don't often correct others, even though it would really help them).

The other things are reasonable, but chatting with waitstaff? Is that really looked down upon?

IMO yes, but not because they're too lowly to hang out with, but rather because (1) if you're talking to your waiter or waitress, you're not paying attention to the people you're with, and (2) they are at work and have a ton of things to do, so they're likely being polite to you and would like to exit the convo as well.

Agreed, though I probably wouldn't care. I would caveat that you should be kind and respond to waitstaff appropriately. Asking how they are? A-okay. Striking up a long conversation about their life story before everyone orders? Nokay.

[Prudent_Jurist]

Make sure you show your chops and critically comment on the formatting of the menu to the waitstaff. In fact, make sure to bring a red pen and redline the menu right there.

Trust me— the firm will be very, very impressed.

[Anonymous User]

Make sure you show your chops and critically comment on the formatting of the menu to the waitstaff. In fact, make sure to bring a red pen and redline the menu right there.

Trust me— the firm will be very, very impressed.

Then hand the redline to someone even more junior so they can learn.

[HenryHankPalmer]

is pasta seriously bad

signed, incoming SA who's really down for some pasta

Nothing wrong with pasta at all. I was actually advised to go for "stabby" pasta when I was worried about avoiding a mess as a summer. Things like penne and rigatoni that are easy to eat (and generally the superior pasta options anyway).

Probably smart to avoid spaghetti if you are worried about red sauce on a white dress shirt, but you will be fine. Just enjoy yourself.

[Anonymous User]

Some tips I haven't seen here yet:

Don't bite your dinner roll. Tear it into pieces and butter each piece.

If you order a burger or sandwich and it doesn't come cut in half, cut it in half first. It will be neater to eat that way.

To get the last bit of soup, tip the bowl away from you, not towards you.

If eating family style or if you need something to be passed (salt, pepper, butter), don't reach over a bunch of people. Ask for it to be passed to you. Also, don't take a massive serving - leave some for everyone else and wait to see if there's enough for everyone before taking seconds. And use the serving utensils, not your personal cutlery, to take portions of family style food.

Leave your napkin on the chair if you're going to the bathroom. Leave it on the table when you're done with the meal.

Use your butter knife for butter, not your dinner knife. Google the difference if you don't know.

Don't season your food before tasting it. It's inconsiderate to assume it's not seasoned enough without giving it a try first.

If you don't know how to use chopsticks, maybe you should learn. Personally I think it's kind of embarrassing when you're at a fancy Asian restaurant and need to ask for a fork (especially for sushi). Omakase is supposed to be eaten by hand but don't do that if no one else in your party is doing it.

Don't order alcohol if others aren't ordering alcohol.

Try not to get really drunk. Usually the norm is one to three drinks for most business dinners, unless you're doing a wine / cocktail / liquor tasting with the entire table.

If you need to take a work call, step out of the dining room. You can probably ignore most calls but sometimes things are urgent. The people you're dining with will understand and probably do it all the time themselves (especially the senior people). Contrary to normal social etiquette, at a Big Law business dinner, it's not weird or rude to put your work phone on the table - everyone will be checking their phone occasionally (not necessarily responding to emails, but just generally monitoring). But as a summer associate, you will probably never get any truly urgent email or phone call (unless you fucked something up).

Prix fixe is pronounced "pree feexe" not price fix. If everyone is getting prix fixe, you should too (and will probably be mandated to by the restaurant).

Wine glasses are held by the stem.

As soon as you're seated, put your napkin on your lap.

At a fine dining restaurant, the waiter will usually push your chair in for you as you sit down. Don't be alarmed. They may also help you take off your coat or put it on. They will also come by your table occasionally with a little tool to clear the crumbs off your table. They may also put a folded white napkin down over any stain you create on the white tablecloth (e.g., spilled red wine). These are all normal services and not to be commented on or reacted to.

Don't eat until everyone has their food. It should all come out at the same time but if it doesn't, wait.

If you don't like something, don't spit it out like a child. Just swallow it and don't eat any more of it. Don't make any comments about how you find it gross or weird (especially with food that may not be familiar to you - it may come off as racist at worst and uncultured at best). If anyone asks, just say it's not for you.

Try not to eat much faster than everyone else.

Don't talk the entire time. If you notice that someone has been silent the entire time or being talked over by everyone else, try to speak to them directly or give them an "in" into the conversation so that everyone at the table has a chance to talk.

No jeans.

Don't take food off your dining companion's plates.

Some restaurants will offer a stool or other place to put your purse, if you're carrying one.

Close your menu when you're done figuring out what you want to eat.

No double dipping. Also, if there's a sauce or condiment (like butter), take one large-ish scoop of it with the serving spoon or a butter knife, and put that portion on your plate, and use that portion to sauce up / butter your dish, as opposed to repeatedly going back for more sauce / condiment / butter multiple times. Don't drown your dish in ketchup or hot sauce - you will look childish.

The only thing you should slurp is an oyster, which you should eat whole.

A Western soup spoon is fatter than a normal spoon. But you probably won't have to worry about telling the difference because if you order soup, the waiter will likely bring the soup soon just for you - the soup spoon probably won't already be on the table. Same goes for red, white and dessert wine glasses - the waiter will likely bring the correct one just for you and you won't have to figure out which glass is for what. Dessert fork is smaller than a regular fork and will be on top of your plate as opposed to the left or right side.

If you don't know how to pronounce something, try pointing to it on the menu when the waiter comes to you instead of attempting to pronounce it. Or if there is a portion of it that you know how to pronounce, try saying that. E.g., "the first appetizer on the menu" instead of "squab with foie gras" or like "the chicken dish" instead of "coq au vin".

Source: Also first gen. Grew up knowing none of this but now regularly do fine dining business dinners.

[Anonymous User]

I grew up privileged, silver spoon in my mouth, and many parts of the prior post are news to me (e.g., the right direction to tilt your soup). That level of detail is overkill; IMO you just need the basics down and then some general rules of thumb like copying others when you feel unsure. The point about conservation is underrated though -- being a courteous and pleasant conversationalist is a big part of being a good dinner companion.

And, FWIW, at my NY V10 summer, there were only 3-4 occasions where we went out to true $$$$-level, white-tablecloth fine dining. Most of the other excursions were to nice, but slightly more relaxed/informal restaurants where nobody is pushing in your seat for you.