Best Tax Department NYC Forum

[Anonymous User]

For all the tax lawyers on here, where would you want to start your career? Skadden? DPW? What about the smaller departments at Wachtell and Cravath? Thanks!

[biglaw2024]

Not to hijack this thread, but if anyone knows, what about the best tax department in DC?

[Anonymous User]

For all the tax lawyers on here, where would you want to start your career? Skadden? DPW? What about the smaller departments at Wachtell and Cravath? Thanks!

Not at any of the firms listed, but working across from Cravath has almost always been miserable. DPW is great to work across from, on the other hand. Not sure how that translates to working at either place though.

[Anonymous User]

For all the tax lawyers on here, where would you want to start your career? Skadden? DPW? What about the smaller departments at Wachtell and Cravath? Thanks!

I don’t think there is an objective right answer. I know tax lawyers who have had fantastic experiences at all the firms you mentioned and not so great experiences at those same firms. Tax is a career that requires a lot of learning early on, so I believe that if one is fortunate enough to have a choice among firms that are all highly well-regarded (in tax and generally), they should choose the firm that (1) has a culture that suits their personality and learning style and (2) does a sufficiently high-volume of the kinds of work within tax that matches their interests (tax planning, PE, public M&A, financial instruments, fund formation, controversy, restructuring, etc.)

Individual preferences regarding working at a larger firm vs smaller firm could also be taken into account. In my opinion, there is no right answer of whether it is “better” to start in a large firm/tax group (note that two are not always correlated) than a smaller one. Just depends on personal preference - large and small groups have their respective pros and cons.

So, if one has a sense of the kind of culture they’re looking for, the type of work they want to do within tax, and the size of the group they would like to join, that probably narrows their list down to just a couple firms. I suspect that list would be different from person to person.

Edit: Would also add that to the extent you can get a sense of it, I would choose a firm where the tax group is respected internally by associates and partners in other groups. I think a high quality relationship with the other groups at the firm you work with can go a very long way in enriching one’s practice.

[Anonymous User]

S&C.

[Anonymous User]

For all the tax lawyers on here, where would you want to start your career? Skadden? DPW? What about the smaller departments at Wachtell and Cravath? Thanks!

All are good. "Best" is a hard thing to gauge in this context. Is DPW "best" if you get amazing experience but are billing 2500 hours a year and burn out after two years? Is Wachtell "best" if you work on amazingly sophisticated transactions but bill 2600 hours a year and quite the practice of law after two years? At all of these firms you will be afforded excellent experience, but trying to avoid the savage burnout rate is almost certainly more important than trying to figure out who is marginally better than the other, especially considering that making partner at any of them leads to an eventual $4 million+ / year job.

[Anonymous User]

For all the tax lawyers on here, where would you want to start your career? Skadden? DPW? What about the smaller departments at Wachtell and Cravath? Thanks!

I don’t think there is an objective right answer. I know tax lawyers who have had fantastic experiences at all the firms you mentioned and not so great experiences at those same firms. Tax is a career that requires a lot of learning early on, so I believe that if one is fortunate enough to have a choice among firms that are all highly well-regarded (in tax and generally), they should choose the firm that (1) has a culture that suits their personality and learning style and (2) does a sufficiently high-volume of the kinds of work within tax that matches their interests (tax planning, PE, public M&A, financial instruments, fund formation, controversy, restructuring, etc.)

Individual preferences regarding working at a larger firm vs smaller firm could also be taken into account. In my opinion, there is no right answer of whether it is “better” to start in a large firm/tax group (note that two are not always correlated) than a smaller one. Just depends on personal preference - large and small groups have their respective pros and cons.

So, if one has a sense of the kind of culture they’re looking for, the type of work they want to do within tax, and the size of the group they would like to join, that probably narrows their list down to just a couple firms. I suspect that list would be different from person to person.

Edit: Would also add that to the extent you can get a sense of it, I would choose a firm where the tax group is respected internally by associates and partners in other groups. I think a high quality relationship with the other groups at the firm you work with can go a very long way in enriching one’s practice.

Thanks, this is really helpful.

One follow-up question: does a firm's tax work generally mirror its overall workflow? I assume Wachtell and Cravath focus on a lot of public company M&A tax work, DPW maybe more capital markets and derivatives, etc. Based on looking at listed past on experience on the firm websites, that seems right. But it's hard to get a sense of how much planning these firms do––I don't see any of that kind of work listed publicly.

[Anonymous User]

S&C.

Any reason why?

[Anonymous User]

Something else to consider is balance of "service" work vs. tax-specific work coming out the different NY firm's tax groups. Some of these firms (e.g., Wachtell to my knowledge), solely or almost solely work on the deals that their corporate team are bringing in, negotiating the tax provisions, advising on structures, etc. for those deals. For any deal where tax considerations are significant (e.g., a merger is intended to be tax-free), the tax lawyers are going to be heavily involved and making important calls. Contrast this with tax groups that also have their own clients, e.g. a company wants to retool some foreign operations and wants advice (and potentially a tax opinion) on the effect this has on their U.S. taxes.

You will likely get more opportunity to delve into complex tax issues at a firm that also has its own tax clients, although this may be less relevant if your goal is to go in house within a certain industry (e.g., in house at a fund -- in this case then maybe best to just go with place where you'll get the best funds matters). In terms of firms that do both kinds of work, your best bet may be to talk with associates during OCI to figure out what their balance of work looks like. Off the top of my head, I know that S&C, DPW, and Cleary do a lot of the standalone tax work for the big investment banks.

[Anonymous User]

Off the top of my head, S&C, Skadden, Debevoise, DPW, Cleary

[Anonymous User]

Tax in New York Legal Rankings

[Anonymous User]

For all the tax lawyers on here, where would you want to start your career? Skadden? DPW? What about the smaller departments at Wachtell and Cravath? Thanks!

I don’t think there is an objective right answer. I know tax lawyers who have had fantastic experiences at all the firms you mentioned and not so great experiences at those same firms. Tax is a career that requires a lot of learning early on, so I believe that if one is fortunate enough to have a choice among firms that are all highly well-regarded (in tax and generally), they should choose the firm that (1) has a culture that suits their personality and learning style and (2) does a sufficiently high-volume of the kinds of work within tax that matches their interests (tax planning, PE, public M&A, financial instruments, fund formation, controversy, restructuring, etc.)

Individual preferences regarding working at a larger firm vs smaller firm could also be taken into account. In my opinion, there is no right answer of whether it is “better” to start in a large firm/tax group (note that two are not always correlated) than a smaller one. Just depends on personal preference - large and small groups have their respective pros and cons.

So, if one has a sense of the kind of culture they’re looking for, the type of work they want to do within tax, and the size of the group they would like to join, that probably narrows their list down to just a couple firms. I suspect that list would be different from person to person.

Edit: Would also add that to the extent you can get a sense of it, I would choose a firm where the tax group is respected internally by associates and partners in other groups. I think a high quality relationship with the other groups at the firm you work with can go a very long way in enriching one’s practice.

Thanks, this is really helpful.

One follow-up question: does a firm's tax work generally mirror its overall workflow? I assume Wachtell and Cravath focus on a lot of public company M&A tax work, DPW maybe more capital markets and derivatives, etc. Based on looking at listed past on experience on the firm websites, that seems right. But it's hard to get a sense of how much planning these firms do––I don't see any of that kind of work listed publicly.

I also haven’t seen much of that work listed publicly, so I agree it’s hard to get a pulse on who really focuses on it. Anecdotally, I know that planning work is more common out of DC tax practices than NY (can’t speak to other geographies). I think Skadden probably has the best (or at least is among the best) for their reputation in planning. As an aside, I think Skadden is very well-regarded in tax generally. Other firms that come to mind regarding planning are Baker McKenzie and Fenwick.

[Anonymous User]

This is a difficult question because very few people have experience at multiple different top shops for tax. And the groups are unique or sometimes small enough that experiences aren't necessarily fungible so it's difficult to compare with friends at other places.

Further, you asked what group is best to start your career. As others have mentioned, the start of a tax career is very different than mid/senior level. There is a very steep learning curve, and you may spend the first 3 or 4 years as an associate just learning "how to read" so to speak. The best place for learning may not be the best for thriving once you know what's going on and can run the tax side of a deal solo.

That being said, as a non junior I can say that DPW tax is amazing. Great people, great organization, pretty good management etc. Lots of juniors so you aren't stuck doing basic work like at some smaller places. It doesn't hurt that managing partner is a tax guy, so tax doesn't get shafted/ignored like at some firms.

[Anonymous User]

I know a VP of Tax at a F500 that regards both Baker and Skadden very highly for tax planning.

[Anonymous User]

Here's what I've heard/seen re DPW tax from my SO (who left some time ago; the attrition was insane for a while): close to 0 training, esp. from partners, who are too busy and often nonresponsive; more senior associates try to train you but they may have gaps in knowledge themselves due to how they were trained; some partners (and possibly some senior associates) are not the most pleasant to work with but it's relatively easy to avoid them (or at least the partners); you have to be proactive in asking for different types of work or you can be put into a box and have issues later (didn't happen to my SO but they've seen it happen); have to find own coverage for the numerous deals you're staffed on (though my SO has heard that may have changed along with the staffing process). The other gripes also were "normal" biglaw stuff, such as unpredictable workflow, blown weekends etc. One caveat is that my SO is not "passionate" about tax and sometimes regretted choosing it (extremely steep learning curve, expected to learn and read on own time, no mindless task downtime etc.). I don't remember how much they billed annually. Can ask but I know it wasn't an outrageous number (though they still had to cancel our plans quite a few times).

[Anonymous User]

Here's what I've heard/seen re DPW tax from my SO (who left some time ago; the attrition was insane for a while): close to 0 training, esp. from partners, who are too busy and often nonresponsive; more senior associates try to train you but they may have gaps in knowledge themselves due to how they were trained; some partners (and possibly some senior associates) are not the most pleasant to work with but it's relatively easy to avoid them (or at least the partners); you have to be proactive in asking for different types of work or you can be put into a box and have issues later (didn't happen to my SO but they've seen it happen); have to find own coverage for the numerous deals you're staffed on (though my SO has heard that may have changed along with the staffing process). The other gripes also were "normal" biglaw stuff, such as unpredictable workflow, blown weekends etc. One caveat is that my SO is not "passionate" about tax and sometimes regretted choosing it (extremely steep learning curve, expected to learn and read on own time, no mindless task downtime etc.). I don't remember how much they billed annually. Can ask but I know it wasn't an outrageous number (though they still had to cancel our plans quite a few times).

+1. Training is still barely existent, and attrition is still insane. It is possible to end up in a box, but another risk is being spread too thin among a dozen types of work and acquiring adequate skill on none of them, even though you are regularly working nights and weekends, etc. Partners / other senior people are not pleasant on the whole, and staffing and coverage are perennial issues. Another issue is that there is a fair amount of needless work and senior people who lack a sense of context and proportionality for the work, such that junior time is regularly spent chasing down minute issues (or issues best left to other groups) that our corporate folks seem unsure why we spent so much time chasing down, and is also spent on unnecessary calls. There is also the full gamut of other biglaw issues, such as unreasonable deadlines and requests at odd hours. Not sure how this compares to other tax groups. Some mid-levels / seniors seem to have had a better experience (including one of the posters above), but I think the junior consensus is negative.

[Anonymous User]

Just looking at the number of associates at various top shops, it seems like S&C has a smaller associate to partner ratio? Does anyone have any experience working with (or across from) them?

[Anonymous User]

Just looking at the number of associates at various top shops, it seems like S&C has a smaller associate to partner ratio? Does anyone have any experience working with (or across from) them?

I'm a tax associate at S&C. In the NY office, there are 7 partners and at any given time around 20 associates.
We are a smaller group than most of our peer firms which means we get a lot more responsibility early on and are exposed to a wider variety of matters. Everyone is super nice, laid back and down to earth (which, granted, are maybe not the most typical words to describe S&C more generally, but certainly true for the tax group).

[RMFT12]

Wachtell has the best tax shop for corporate/deal work, next question

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

Senior associate in tax at one of the above-mentioned firms. Really good answers in here already. Just adding that:

- As a junior associate the distinction between "service work" and "pure tax work" is unlikely to make a difference to you--many PE/M&A/JV structuring-type assignments will require you to research complex legal questions and you'll be so busy just learning the foundation that whether you're doing it because a partner told you to research X to make sure something is deductible in a deal or because a client asked for a tax opinion on something is unlikely to feel any different from your perspective. Obviously just pushing drafts of documents around is less THRILLING than having to research some arcane tax law question at 11pm lol, but as a tax lawyer you will actually crave mindless work (or a break, but let's be realistic) -- compared with junior corporate associates who, I've been led to understand, have plenty of "go through and make sure these edits are all incorporated"-type work, your brain will be on-duty for an exhausting amount of time.

- Boutiques also exist (Caplin, Kostelanetz, Miller & Chevalier) and have interesting / more pure-tax work, I think. I think there are more "write a taxnotes article"-type assignments at those kinds of places too, and maybe better apprenticeship-style training since I think attrition isn't as bad so there is more of a vested interest in seniors to train you (whereas in biglaw after a couple years it's really seen as your job to care about your own development/career).

- How human the people in the group are is super important, especially in a field with so much learning / so many stupid questions / so many mistakes. Given the steepness of the learning curve, being around people who are forgiving and you aren't likely to resent after 24 months is imo especially important because you'll still have a lot to learn before being able to market yourself as having accumulated much intellectual capital.

[The Lsat Airbender]

Wachtell has the best tax shop for corporate/deal work, next question

Bolded proviso is kind of a big deal depending on what kind of tax lawyer you want to be

[Anonymous User]

Senior associate in tax at one of the above-mentioned firms. Really good answers in here already. Just adding that:

- As a junior associate the distinction between "service work" and "pure tax work" is unlikely to make a difference to you--many PE/M&A/JV structuring-type assignments will require you to research complex legal questions and you'll be so busy just learning the foundation that whether you're doing it because a partner told you to research X to make sure something is deductible in a deal or because a client asked for a tax opinion on something is unlikely to feel any different from your perspective. Obviously just pushing drafts of documents around is less THRILLING than having to research some arcane tax law question at 11pm lol, but as a tax lawyer you will actually crave mindless work (or a break, but let's be realistic) -- compared with junior corporate associates who, I've been led to understand, have plenty of "go through and make sure these edits are all incorporated"-type work, your brain will be on-duty for an exhausting amount of time.

- Boutiques also exist (Caplin, Kostelanetz, Miller & Chevalier) and have interesting / more pure-tax work, I think. I think there are more "write a taxnotes article"-type assignments at those kinds of places too, and maybe better apprenticeship-style training since I think attrition isn't as bad so there is more of a vested interest in seniors to train you (whereas in biglaw after a couple years it's really seen as your job to care about your own development/career).

- How human the people in the group are is super important, especially in a field with so much learning / so many stupid questions / so many mistakes. Given the steepness of the learning curve, being around people who are forgiving and you aren't likely to resent after 24 months is imo especially important because you'll still have a lot to learn before being able to market yourself as having accumulated much intellectual capital.

I second this anon. I jumped around biglaw ranging from top shops to V100s to non-vault (market or close to market) firms (not in any particular order), and of them the most “tax” substantive training was actually at a non-V firm with partners who came from a mix of tax boutiques and other top biglaw. Part of this was because I wasn’t on 15 deals at once negotiating reps and warranties and/or pre-closing tax indemnity w/ the other side or similar w/ RWI ppl, but actually sitting down and thinking through issues for which I was given a week (again, a “week”!) to analyze and run down (though when I had to juggle 10 of such questions at once, I started missing tax indemnities - this goes to the point of the anon on having a mental “break”). Granted, tax llm helped in setting the foundational knowledge, but it was really the experience at this non-V firm that shaped the tax nerd in me. It’s the difference between being a pure deal tax lawyer and tax-tax lawyer. I like the mix of both, so I ended up at a V firm that does a bit of everything so that I’m not always purely on the deal side of things.

By the way, hugely dependent on the deal, but my experience has been public deals tend not to have as much tax input. So as sexy as they may sound, you get to be more creative (and have fun) in private deals. Of course that’s a double-edged sword, cause you get sucked into all sorts of mess too.

[jagpaw]

Senior associate in tax at one of the above-mentioned firms. Really good answers in here already. Just adding that:

- As a junior associate the distinction between "service work" and "pure tax work" is unlikely to make a difference to you--many PE/M&A/JV structuring-type assignments will require you to research complex legal questions and you'll be so busy just learning the foundation that whether you're doing it because a partner told you to research X to make sure something is deductible in a deal or because a client asked for a tax opinion on something is unlikely to feel any different from your perspective. Obviously just pushing drafts of documents around is less THRILLING than having to research some arcane tax law question at 11pm lol, but as a tax lawyer you will actually crave mindless work (or a break, but let's be realistic) -- compared with junior corporate associates who, I've been led to understand, have plenty of "go through and make sure these edits are all incorporated"-type work, your brain will be on-duty for an exhausting amount of time.

- Boutiques also exist (Caplin, Kostelanetz, Miller & Chevalier) and have interesting / more pure-tax work, I think. I think there are more "write a taxnotes article"-type assignments at those kinds of places too, and maybe better apprenticeship-style training since I think attrition isn't as bad so there is more of a vested interest in seniors to train you (whereas in biglaw after a couple years it's really seen as your job to care about your own development/career).

- How human the people in the group are is super important, especially in a field with so much learning / so many stupid questions / so many mistakes. Given the steepness of the learning curve, being around people who are forgiving and you aren't likely to resent after 24 months is imo especially important because you'll still have a lot to learn before being able to market yourself as having accumulated much intellectual capital.

I second this anon. I jumped around biglaw ranging from top shops to V100s to non-vault (market or close to market) firms (not in any particular order), and of them the most “tax” substantive training was actually at a non-V firm with partners who came from a mix of tax boutiques and other top biglaw. Part of this was because I wasn’t on 15 deals at once negotiating reps and warranties and/or pre-closing tax indemnity w/ the other side or similar w/ RWI ppl, but actually sitting down and thinking through issues for which I was given a week (again, a “week”!) to analyze and run down (though when I had to juggle 10 of such questions at once, I started missing tax indemnities - this goes to the point of the anon on having a mental “break”). Granted, tax llm helped in setting the foundational knowledge, but it was really the experience at this non-V firm that shaped the tax nerd in me. It’s the difference between being a pure deal tax lawyer and tax-tax lawyer. I like the mix of both, so I ended up at a V firm that does a bit of everything so that I’m not always purely on the deal side of things.

By the way, hugely dependent on the deal, but my experience has been public deals tend not to have as much tax input. So as sexy as they may sound, you get to be more creative (and have fun) in private deals. Of course that’s a double-edged sword, cause you get sucked into all sorts of mess too.

Would you be willing to share a bit more about your experiences via PM? Thanks in advance.

[Anonymous User]

How is the tax practice in the New York office of Magic circle firms?