For those who made partner, when did you know you had a chance? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I heard so much about how hard it is to make partner that I started out with the mindset of putting in my 3-5 years and going in house. But I had a conversation with a partner who was giving me advice on how to make partner eventually and was talking as if I have a solid shot. I'm pretty junior. Is this just fluff that everyone gets to make them feel good and get them to stay? When do you know if you're actually doing well?

Also how hard is it actually to make partner, if you're good at what you do, get along with seniors and partners, and stick around.

[RedNewJersey]

I'm pretty junior. Is this just fluff that everyone gets to make them feel good and get them to stay?

Yes.

There are lots of ways to gauge if you have a real shot, but a partner talking to a junior associate about the path to partnership means 0. It's totally costless to them, and might motivate you.

[Anonymous User]

What is the path at your firm? Is there a committee? Who is on it? Does this partner have any sway? The top rainmaker saying "I'd like to make you partner because my clients need you" or the department head saying "with your book of business I think you could make the ranks" are different from the most recent NEP saying "I think you have a shot."

[Anonymous User]

Sorry but I agree that it's basically meaningless. I have heard many stories from people who were well-liked, did good work, brought in business, and were still yanked around with the "you're so great, we love you here, you'll make partner soon!" line, which kept them hanging in for (in some cases) years only to never actually get the nod. They ended up lateraling as partner to other, smaller firms. Point being, as someone said above, you're so far from it being a reality that the comment means nothing, and even for those who are closer to it, they still get smoke blown.

[papermateflair]

I wouldn't say it's completely meaningless - there are certainly juniors who partners have already decided will never make partner, or whom they don't want to mentor. If this partner wants to give advice, take the advice, and keep the conversations going. Ask about the business side of the practice (partners love that). I wouldn't take this one conversation to mean you definitely have a shot at making partner in 7-10 years, but having a partner who wants to mentor you and give advice is necessary to keep advancing, and it sounds like you're on track (even if you're at the very beginning of the track).

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for the reality check all. Disappointing but not surprising. Still better than being told the opposite I guess.

[Anonymous User]

I think it’s always a question of what others are being told in your class.

[attorney589753]

The best answer here is that "no one knows and it's impossible to say", but successfully deciphering what it says is probably one of the key skills to making partner.

Making partner requires a whole combination of skills, plus luck, the exact combination of which will vary significantly by firm (size/ranking/location) and practice group. A junior associate simply isn't going to be close on substantive legal skills, client communication experience, or business development opportunities to know whether you can check those boxes yet. However, like a recent poster said, you may be able to guess who *definitely isn't* going to make it. Junior associates (more like 2nd/3rd years) who still aren't responsive, organized, self-motivated, or picking things up quickly are unlikely to then progress and knock out all the harder things. It may be that half or less of associates in the class show, by 3rd year, the potential to make it up.

The uncomfortable reality is that making partner is also a super political process at most places. So is this the type of partner who tells this to every associate in order to get loyalty and a few extra hours of work out of them? Is this the type of partner who is looking to actively mentor select younger associates (either for selfish reasons, or because they find joy in it, or some combination?). Was it just an off-the-cuff remark from someone who doesn't take their words too seriously when they're one drink in? In order to overall assess your chances, you'd definitely need to triangulate this information with other info, for example, when someone from your class year needs to be staffed on an important matter, are you the person seniors and partners want to call?

[Anonymous User]

I heard so much about how hard it is to make partner that I started out with the mindset of putting in my 3-5 years and going in house. But I had a conversation with a partner who was giving me advice on how to make partner eventually and was talking as if I have a solid shot. I'm pretty junior. Is this just fluff that everyone gets to make them feel good and get them to stay? When do you know if you're actually doing well?

Also how hard is it actually to make partner, if you're good at what you do, get along with seniors and partners, and stick around.

For a different perspective, as a summer at a V10 had a partner point out certain 2nd year associates to me and tell me that they are amazing attorneys destined for great things. Years later, lo and behold, they made partner at the firm. Same goes with certain 2nd years going in house and being told by partners at their departure drinks that they had a good chance of making partner if they struck around.

Definitely the case the partners can identify certain juniors as younger versions of themselves, and those people will be the ones who can waltz into partnership if they want it, ala Scott Barshay.

[VentureMBA]

I heard so much about how hard it is to make partner that I started out with the mindset of putting in my 3-5 years and going in house. But I had a conversation with a partner who was giving me advice on how to make partner eventually and was talking as if I have a solid shot. I'm pretty junior. Is this just fluff that everyone gets to make them feel good and get them to stay? When do you know if you're actually doing well?

Also how hard is it actually to make partner, if you're good at what you do, get along with seniors and partners, and stick around.

For a different perspective, as a summer at a V10 had a partner point out certain 2nd year associates to me and tell me that they are amazing attorneys destined for great things. Years later, lo and behold, they made partner at the firm. Same goes with certain 2nd years going in house and being told by partners at their departure drinks that they had a good chance of making partner if they struck around.

Definitely the case the partners can identify certain juniors as younger versions of themselves, and those people will be the ones who can waltz into partnership if they want it, ala Scott Barshay.

Star associates can and are identified early in the process.

Some of these associates stay on the trajectory to make partner and some of them don't, but they are far more likely to make partner than associates that are viewed to be run of the mill in their 2nd/3rd year.

A lot of this is due to your reputation framing how others review your work. When you're working with a known star, you're less paranoid about going through things with a fine tooth comb and mistakes are written off as immaterial to your otherwise outstanding track record. Conversely, every mistake by a mediocre associate is caught and viewed to be confirmation of your mediocrity. This is all just human nature. It isn't necessarily fair, but it is reality.

I would also note that your personality matters and your personality is evident before you do an hour of legal work. There are a lot of lawyers that are just awkward or not personable for whatever reason. When you meet a junior associate that has good social skills, they've already set themselves apart in terms of being the type of person you want in front of clients and doing business development.

[Anonymous User]

Prove to partners that you will be continuing to earn them money during their retirement. Partners are looking to hand their practice off to and do less work, despite everything you read about them being crazy work a holics. They want a work a holic to take over for them!

[Anonymous User]

I heard so much about how hard it is to make partner that I started out with the mindset of putting in my 3-5 years and going in house. But I had a conversation with a partner who was giving me advice on how to make partner eventually and was talking as if I have a solid shot. I'm pretty junior. Is this just fluff that everyone gets to make them feel good and get them to stay? When do you know if you're actually doing well?

Also how hard is it actually to make partner, if you're good at what you do, get along with seniors and partners, and stick around.

For a different perspective, as a summer at a V10 had a partner point out certain 2nd year associates to me and tell me that they are amazing attorneys destined for great things. Years later, lo and behold, they made partner at the firm. Same goes with certain 2nd years going in house and being told by partners at their departure drinks that they had a good chance of making partner if they struck around.

Definitely the case the partners can identify certain juniors as younger versions of themselves, and those people will be the ones who can waltz into partnership if they want it, ala Scott Barshay.

Star associates can and are identified early in the process.

Some of these associates stay on the trajectory to make partner and some of them don't, but they are far more likely to make partner than associates that are viewed to be run of the mill in their 2nd/3rd year.

A lot of this is due to your reputation framing how others review your work. When you're working with a known star, you're less paranoid about going through things with a fine tooth comb and mistakes are written off as immaterial to your otherwise outstanding track record. Conversely, every mistake by a mediocre associate is caught and viewed to be confirmation of your mediocrity. This is all just human nature. It isn't necessarily fair, but it is reality.

I would also note that your personality matters and your personality is evident before you do an hour of legal work. There are a lot of lawyers that are just awkward or not personable for whatever reason. When you meet a junior associate that has good social skills, they've already set themselves apart in terms of being the type of person you want in front of clients and doing business development.

Definitely this. Also the star associates genuinely cared about the practice of law, improving their skills, understanding the purpose of the projects and how they fit in, etc. Basically, a combination of competence, effort, enthusiasm, personality and desire. 90% of associates just don't have that and if they make partner will generally do so by accident.

[Anonymous User]

I heard so much about how hard it is to make partner that I started out with the mindset of putting in my 3-5 years and going in house. But I had a conversation with a partner who was giving me advice on how to make partner eventually and was talking as if I have a solid shot. I'm pretty junior. Is this just fluff that everyone gets to make them feel good and get them to stay? When do you know if you're actually doing well?

Also how hard is it actually to make partner, if you're good at what you do, get along with seniors and partners, and stick around.

For a different perspective, as a summer at a V10 had a partner point out certain 2nd year associates to me and tell me that they are amazing attorneys destined for great things. Years later, lo and behold, they made partner at the firm. Same goes with certain 2nd years going in house and being told by partners at their departure drinks that they had a good chance of making partner if they struck around.

Definitely the case the partners can identify certain juniors as younger versions of themselves, and those people will be the ones who can waltz into partnership if they want it, ala Scott Barshay.

This is a useful perspective, but telling people at their departure that they had a good chance at partner if they’d stuck around seems like puffery.

I think people can/do identify people who they think would be good partners (including especially the ones that remind them of themselves), but I think there’s a difference between “if you’re interested in making partner eventually these are things you should think about” and “I think you, personally, are absolutely partner materiel, and these the very specific steps you need to take to make it happen at this firm.” Certainly the partner hasn’t written OP off and that’s good, but if OP is as junior as they sound (1st year?) I think it’s way too early to read into that kind of advice. The partner may well think the OP is partner potential - if they continue to grow and improve and do good work and show that they can handle clients and negotiate personalities/politics and the stars align such that they need a new partner in OP’s group at the time OP would be eligible and OP still works there and hasn’t burned out and no one else has upstaged them.

[Anonymous User]

I heard so much about how hard it is to make partner that I started out with the mindset of putting in my 3-5 years and going in house. But I had a conversation with a partner who was giving me advice on how to make partner eventually and was talking as if I have a solid shot. I'm pretty junior. Is this just fluff that everyone gets to make them feel good and get them to stay? When do you know if you're actually doing well?

Also how hard is it actually to make partner, if you're good at what you do, get along with seniors and partners, and stick around.

For a different perspective, as a summer at a V10 had a partner point out certain 2nd year associates to me and tell me that they are amazing attorneys destined for great things. Years later, lo and behold, they made partner at the firm. Same goes with certain 2nd years going in house and being told by partners at their departure drinks that they had a good chance of making partner if they struck around.

Definitely the case the partners can identify certain juniors as younger versions of themselves, and those people will be the ones who can waltz into partnership if they want it, ala Scott Barshay.

This is a useful perspective, but telling people at their departure that they had a good chance at partner if they’d stuck around seems like puffery.

I think people can/do identify people who they think would be good partners (including especially the ones that remind them of themselves), but I think there’s a difference between “if you’re interested in making partner eventually these are things you should think about” and “I think you, personally, are absolutely partner materiel, and these the very specific steps you need to take to make it happen at this firm.” Certainly the partner hasn’t written OP off and that’s good, but if OP is as junior as they sound (1st year?) I think it’s way too early to read into that kind of advice. The partner may well think the OP is partner potential - if they continue to grow and improve and do good work and show that they can handle clients and negotiate personalities/politics and the stars align such that they need a new partner in OP’s group at the time OP would be eligible and OP still works there and hasn’t burned out and no one else has upstaged them.

There are two types of people who make partner:

#1 - those who make it the standard way you describe, and pull together a lot of different positives to get promoted.

#2 - those who waltz into promotion because they are overwhelmingly good at the job and it more a coronation than a promotion. These are the guys regularly billing 2700+ hours and having clients demand to have them staffed on the most important deals. Just absolute all stars where it would be insane to not promote them, and failing to do so might lead to them walking away with significant clients. All the normal factors go out the window if you are that good.

[Anonymous User]

Based on the OP, you sound like you're in your third year or below. My advice would be to not be thinking about this at all right now. Your optimal strategy at the moment is the same whether you're going to make partner or not: do good work and make clients and partners seek you out specifically to work for them. Focus on the process, not the outcome. Worrying about your title seven years for now is a recipe for a lot of misery, whether you make it or not. Don't even let yourself think about this stuff; posting about it here will make it even worse.

[MrTooToo]

Invitation: Conference Room Dazzle
Notes: Clothing Optional

That's all I needed to know.

[Anonymous User]

Based on the OP, you sound like you're in your third year or below. My advice would be to not be thinking about this at all right now. Your optimal strategy at the moment is the same whether you're going to make partner or not: do good work and make clients and partners seek you out specifically to work for them. Focus on the process, not the outcome. Worrying about your title seven years for now is a recipe for a lot of misery, whether you make it or not. Don't even let yourself think about this stuff; posting about it here will make it even worse.

Well there's a difference in how you approach it if the goal is to tread water for a couple of years or to advance. If it's a 2% chance or 20%.

[Anonymous User]

Based on the OP, you sound like you're in your third year or below. My advice would be to not be thinking about this at all right now. Your optimal strategy at the moment is the same whether you're going to make partner or not: do good work and make clients and partners seek you out specifically to work for them. Focus on the process, not the outcome. Worrying about your title seven years for now is a recipe for a lot of misery, whether you make it or not. Don't even let yourself think about this stuff; posting about it here will make it even worse.

Well there's a difference in how you approach it if the goal is to tread water for a couple of years or to advance. If it's a 2% chance or 20%.

Yes, decide now. It’s hard to catch up to the all star when they have been doing it for three more years than you.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Do the math at how many people originally hired in 2012 or 2013 became partner at any Biglaw firm and you'll find the actual number depresses you.

Heck, do the math for the number of people still working hard as fourth or fifth years with an earnest belief that promotion was possible, and you'll get discouraged by that number too.

[Anonymous User]

The partner may well think the OP is partner potential - if they continue to grow and improve and do good work and show that they can handle clients and negotiate personalities/politics and the stars align such that they need a new partner in OP’s group at the time OP would be eligible and OP still works there and hasn’t burned out and no one else has upstaged them.

This X1000. Admittedly not a partner, but I've been around long enough to see "partner material" associates passed on for slightly better "partner material" associates or even passed on altogether because "we've made too many partners of late" in one group or firmwide.

I agree with others ITT that you can mostly tell who is partner material (and maybe OP is on that track), but alongside that you often need a bit of luck. Unless the top rainmaker who has major sway is saying "I'm going to make you partner when you're senior enough" (this happened to a colleague of mine who is, you guessed it, now partner), nothing is set in stone. Not saying don't keep grinding, but even those who grind the hardest are still not guaranteed anything.

[Anonymous User]

Do the math at how many people originally hired in 2012 or 2013 became partner at any Biglaw firm and you'll find the actual number depresses you.

Heck, do the math for the number of people still working hard as fourth or fifth years with an earnest belief that promotion was possible, and you'll get discouraged by that number too.

Or encouraged, because the weirdos didn’t make it. I think this cuts both ways. Having worked for and with some who didn’t make it and some who did, it’s pretty easy to tell great from medium to shitty. The stars always shine. Everyone else is whatever the partners think they are as folks have like identified and maybe that’s discouraging.

[Anonymous User]

Do the math at how many people originally hired in 2012 or 2013 became partner at any Biglaw firm and you'll find the actual number depresses you.

Heck, do the math for the number of people still working hard as fourth or fifth years with an earnest belief that promotion was possible, and you'll get discouraged by that number too.

Or encouraged, because the weirdos didn’t make it. I think this cuts both ways. Having worked for and with some who didn’t make it and some who did, it’s pretty easy to tell great from medium to shitty. The stars always shine. Everyone else is whatever the partners think they are as folks have like identified and maybe that’s discouraging.

Re: "the stars always shine" - it may be that the people who make partner are all stars, but I don't think that means that all stars will make partner.

[VentureMBA]

Do the math at how many people originally hired in 2012 or 2013 became partner at any Biglaw firm and you'll find the actual number depresses you.

Heck, do the math for the number of people still working hard as fourth or fifth years with an earnest belief that promotion was possible, and you'll get discouraged by that number too.

Anyone do the bath of the envelope math? Curious..

[Anonymous User]

Do the math at how many people originally hired in 2012 or 2013 became partner at any Biglaw firm and you'll find the actual number depresses you.

Heck, do the math for the number of people still working hard as fourth or fifth years with an earnest belief that promotion was possible, and you'll get discouraged by that number too.

Or encouraged, because the weirdos didn’t make it. I think this cuts both ways. Having worked for and with some who didn’t make it and some who did, it’s pretty easy to tell great from medium to shitty. The stars always shine. Everyone else is whatever the partners think they are as folks have like identified and maybe that’s discouraging.

Can someone be “trained up” from good to great ??

[Anonymous User]

Can someone be “trained up” from good to great ??

I don't think it has much to do with training as much as it does ambition. Not that all partners are gunners, but they all seem to push themselves to be the best, learn the most, take on more work, etc. Always hungry, always learning improving, always thinking ahead, always thinking deeper and harder about everything, always asking for advice, etc. It's exhausting but it makes them stand out. If you want it, work for it.

That said, at my firm we associates always joke that every partner has a super power. One I'm pretty sure has an eidetic memory (reads something once and then goes no notes). Another can do any work you do in half as much time. Another only needs 2 hours sleep a night. One knows every little personal detail about every potential client she ever came into contact with. And another can distill the most complicated concept into a single sentence. I don't think those things can be trained.