How Do I Get Out of Corporate? Forum

[Anonymous User]

For starters, I'm sure there are numerous threads on this topic.. but alas.

Background: Currently a corporate associate from HYS. Have a judicial clerkship as well. Looking to transition to a litigation practice. Man not sure why I went corporate. Probably swayed by those juicy "in-house" opportunities. I tried to ask my current firm about transferring internally but that blew up. People are pissed and I'm having constant "how are you doing," "whats your workload" calls with partners and HR is also on the call as well (likely not a good sign). So far, I've struck out... even at Kirkland of all places (gasp). I have a feeling the potential for a recession is playing a role here... firms are not looking to expand their junior litigation numbers.

So stuck. I can tell my time at my current firm is dwindling rapidly, especially with all these "talks" and "HR" calls. What do I do?

Side note: I've applied to like 20 firms and not even a screener. Depressing.

[Anonymous User]

For starters, I'm sure there are numerous threads on this topic.. but alas.

Background: Currently a corporate associate from HYS. Have a judicial clerkship as well. Looking to transition to a litigation practice. Man not sure why I went corporate. Probably swayed by those juicy "in-house" opportunities. I tried to ask my current firm about transferring internally but that blew up. People are pissed and I'm having constant "how are you doing," "whats your workload" calls with partners and HR is also on the call as well (likely not a good sign). So far, I've struck out... even at Kirkland of all places (gasp). I have a feeling the potential for a recession is playing a role here... firms are not looking to expand their junior litigation numbers.

So stuck. I can tell my time at my current firm is dwindling rapidly, especially with all these "talks" and "HR" calls. What do I do?

Side note: I've applied to like 20 firms and not even a screener. Depressing.

A few preliminary questions:

• Why does "how are you doing" and "what's your workload" translate into "my time at my current firm is dwindling?" Couldn't they just be concerned you're burned out and want to keep you?

• Have you talked to a recruiter or are you just sending out cold applications?

• What year are you? This is really important.

Anyway, sounds like you're in a rough situation regardless of the answers to the above. This job really sucks, especially if you're in a practice area you hate. Hang in there -I'm sure there's a path to getting somewhere you're more happy.

[Anonymous User]

For starters, I'm sure there are numerous threads on this topic.. but alas.

Background: Currently a corporate associate from HYS. Have a judicial clerkship as well. Looking to transition to a litigation practice. Man not sure why I went corporate. Probably swayed by those juicy "in-house" opportunities. I tried to ask my current firm about transferring internally but that blew up. People are pissed and I'm having constant "how are you doing," "whats your workload" calls with partners and HR is also on the call as well (likely not a good sign). So far, I've struck out... even at Kirkland of all places (gasp). I have a feeling the potential for a recession is playing a role here... firms are not looking to expand their junior litigation numbers.

So stuck. I can tell my time at my current firm is dwindling rapidly, especially with all these "talks" and "HR" calls. What do I do?

Side note: I've applied to like 20 firms and not even a screener. Depressing.

A few preliminary questions:

• Why does "how are you doing" and "what's your workload" translate into "my time at my current firm is dwindling?" Couldn't they just be concerned you're burned out and want to keep you?

• Have you talked to a recruiter or are you just sending out cold applications?

• What year are you? This is really important.

Anyway, sounds like you're in a rough situation regardless of the answers to the above. This job really sucks, especially if you're in a practice area you hate. Hang in there -I'm sure there's a path to getting somewhere you're more happy.

OP here. Thanks. Yah, it's rough out there. Also, I'm a recent lateral to the firm. And additionally, I was told I could "potential" (emphasis added) switch to litigation but only after I gave the firm several years of service AND a spot was available for a junior litigator at the time I became eligible. So that sucks. Hard to get good reviews when you're in a job you don't like.

To answer your questions, its more like "perhaps you should look for other positions if this isn't what you want to do..." So I'm taking that to mean my time is limited.

I've talk to a recruiter and targeted the DC market, but that's already hard enough and I've come up dry so far.

Also, I'm a junior, think first to second year. Yah. The Pandemic was rough out there for us juniors. So not sure what to do. Perhaps expand my geographic range?

[jotarokujo]

what do you mean you "have a judicial clerkship" if you're potentially a first year? do you mean you have one lined up or you have already done it? if you have it lined up, i'd just coast until it starts (assuming it starts in less than a year). then you'll get plenty of offers after it (assuming article III)

[Anonymous User]

what do you mean you "have a judicial clerkship" if you're potentially a first year? do you mean you have one lined up or you have already done it? if you have it lined up, i'd just coast until it starts (assuming it starts in less than a year). then you'll get plenty of offers after it (assuming article III)

OP here. I had a judicial clerkship, but gave up the year of seniority because I didn't feel it translated to corporate work. I only said "first to second," to make it a little more vague. But yes, it was Article III.

[Anonymous User]

I'm not the world's greatest expert on this, but I would say expand your geographic range and apply to more places. DC is the toughest market, you don't have a ton of experience, and the lit market is weak compared to corporate. I feel like 20 firms isn't really a lot (no disrespect, but you may have to stop thinking like a HYS applicant and think like a slightly less competitive applicant). Also, does your judge have any ideas, if you have that kind of a relationship with them?

[jotarokujo]

what do you mean you "have a judicial clerkship" if you're potentially a first year? do you mean you have one lined up or you have already done it? if you have it lined up, i'd just coast until it starts (assuming it starts in less than a year). then you'll get plenty of offers after it (assuming article III)

OP here. I had a judicial clerkship, but gave up the year of seniority because I didn't feel it translated to corporate work. I only said "first to second," to make it a little more vague. But yes, it was Article III.

gotcha. you have a very high chance of getting a litigation position in DC with your background. i would apply to more firms and not necessarily with a recruiter - ask law school friends for internal referrals and just apply yourself. it seems like you havent been applying for very long. keep applying but be patient and realize it could take a few months. you've got plenty of time. even if you got fired, you would get at least three months to find a new job. but since you're junior it will probably take a while for you to get fired. go to networking events like "affinity group" lawyers of dc or practice area events.

so get applying, apply broadly not just through recruiters, and be patient, don't panicking about running out of time

[Anonymous User]

Your best bet is probably to try and get another clerkship and then get a litigation job from there. Also maybe try and shift to restructuring?

[Anonymous User]

Your best bet is probably to try and get another clerkship and then get a litigation job from there. Also maybe try and shift to restructuring?

OP here. Thanks for the advice. My only hesitation about another clerkship is that I enjoyed practicing a lot more than the isolation of the clerkship, and that was a hard experience on me mentally, given how isolating the whole job was. Plus, the issue of timelines, most clerkships are years out. But its not a bad option and something to consider.

[Anonymous User]

Your best bet is probably to try and get another clerkship and then get a litigation job from there. Also maybe try and shift to restructuring?

Clerkship timelines mean that’s not something you can really do easily—they hire, at a minimum, 15 months or so in advance. The exception would be new nominees, which may be worth considering.

[pkeller]

For starters, I'm sure there are numerous threads on this topic.. but alas.

Background: Currently a corporate associate from HYS. Have a judicial clerkship as well. Looking to transition to a litigation practice. Man not sure why I went corporate. Probably swayed by those juicy "in-house" opportunities. I tried to ask my current firm about transferring internally but that blew up. People are pissed and I'm having constant "how are you doing," "whats your workload" calls with partners and HR is also on the call as well (likely not a good sign). So far, I've struck out... even at Kirkland of all places (gasp). I have a feeling the potential for a recession is playing a role here... firms are not looking to expand their junior litigation numbers.

So stuck. I can tell my time at my current firm is dwindling rapidly, especially with all these "talks" and "HR" calls. What do I do?

Side note: I've applied to like 20 firms and not even a screener. Depressing.

A few preliminary questions:

• Why does "how are you doing" and "what's your workload" translate into "my time at my current firm is dwindling?" Couldn't they just be concerned you're burned out and want to keep you?

• Have you talked to a recruiter or are you just sending out cold applications?

• What year are you? This is really important.

Anyway, sounds like you're in a rough situation regardless of the answers to the above. This job really sucks, especially if you're in a practice area you hate. Hang in there -I'm sure there's a path to getting somewhere you're more happy.

OP here. Thanks. Yah, it's rough out there. Also, I'm a recent lateral to the firm. And additionally, I was told I could "potential" (emphasis added) switch to litigation but only after I gave the firm several years of service AND a spot was available for a junior litigator at the time I became eligible. So that sucks. Hard to get good reviews when you're in a job you don't like.

To answer your questions, its more like "perhaps you should look for other positions if this isn't what you want to do..." So I'm taking that to mean my time is limited.

I've talk to a recruiter and targeted the DC market, but that's already hard enough and I've come up dry so far.

Also, I'm a junior, think first to second year. Yah. The Pandemic was rough out there for us juniors. So not sure what to do. Perhaps expand my geographic range?

Hi, OP. Are you currently in the DC market? It's tough to break into if you're not already in the DC market. Might be worth considering NoVa (if you're barred in VA) and Baltimore/MD as well. Any other locations where you have ties?

You're going to need to submit way more than 20 applications. Especially if you want to switch practice areas.

I would recommend working with recruiters. It "prescreens" your applications essentially--the firms know you've already been vetted, and the firms have pre-existing relationships with recruiters. It can be risky to rely on connections--you're better off going through a recruiter than having a friend submit your resume (you never know if the firm likes your friend or if your friend ~actually~ has any pull). Recruiters also have access to and information about job openings that you wouldn't otherwise know about.

[pkeller]

what do you mean you "have a judicial clerkship" if you're potentially a first year? do you mean you have one lined up or you have already done it? if you have it lined up, i'd just coast until it starts (assuming it starts in less than a year). then you'll get plenty of offers after it (assuming article III)

OP here. I had a judicial clerkship, but gave up the year of seniority because I didn't feel it translated to corporate work. I only said "first to second," to make it a little more vague. But yes, it was Article III.

gotcha. you have a very high chance of getting a litigation position in DC with your background. i would apply to more firms and not necessarily with a recruiter - ask law school friends for internal referrals and just apply yourself. it seems like you havent been applying for very long. keep applying but be patient and realize it could take a few months. you've got plenty of time. even if you got fired, you would get at least three months to find a new job. but since you're junior it will probably take a while for you to get fired. go to networking events like "affinity group" lawyers of dc or practice area events.

so get applying, apply broadly not just through recruiters, and be patient, don't panicking about running out of time

I recommend working with recruiters, but otherwise agree. it normally takes candidates AT LEAST three months to get jobs. and that's if they're not junior. so in your situation, I would expect it to take longer and be prepared for that. and that's okay--it's normal--not a reflection of you at all. just a heads up.

[Anonymous User]

OP here.I've broadened my search to SF and NYC now and am applying broadly. I am fearful, however, I might get fired/terminated before then. I have been told I will be reevaluated within a month, and if I am not deemed satisfactory, I could be terminated. This was communicated to me in a document drafted by a partner I work with and there are gross inaccuracies contained within--which I have supporting documentation to rebut to HR. Not sure what to do.

How likely is it that that I will be outright terminated within a month without notice? Should I resign?

I have been at my current firm less than one year.

[Anonymous User]

I don't have any great advice about what to do about the inaccuracies or what "reevaluated within a month" means with regard to timelines, but I can't see any benefit at all to resigning now before getting fired. It's always easier to get a job from a job, rather than from unemployment, and there's no need to eliminate your paycheck any earlier than you have to. Keep in mind that in future if a prospective employer needs to do a reference check with this firm, the firm will merely confirm that you worked there and dates of employment. They won't say you got fired.

[Anonymous User]

I was a junior associate who wanted litigation but was placed in a corporate practice group. I ultimately ended up switching biglaw firms to do litigation, and I'm significantly happier. Here's a thread I made a while back about the experience with some advice, but I'm happy to answer any specific questions you have. I know it's a frustrating situation, and I'm sorry you're in it, but it's probably more common than most people think, and it really does work out for a lot of people.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=296943

[crazywafflez]

Contact a recruiter - one for each city you'd consider placing in. Also, maybe consider Houston/Dallas/Chi as well.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

OP, are there some big issues you’re not listing here? Are they really talking about firing you in a month because you “asked” about changing practice areas?

Do not quit right now, but do keep looking for other jobs. Target everywhere, not just DC.

[Anonymous User]

OP, are there some big issues you’re not listing here? Are they really talking about firing you in a month because you “asked” about changing practice areas?

Do not quit right now, but do keep looking for other jobs. Target everywhere, not just DC.

OP here. I don't believe I am missing anything. This all started after I contacted my group about switching practice groups. Then, all of a sudden, I'm not billing enough hours, doing too much pro-bono and not committed enough... all stated grievances against me and will be the metric by which I am evaluated following 30 days.

[Anonymous User]

OP here.I've broadened my search to SF and NYC now and am applying broadly. I am fearful, however, I might get fired/terminated before then. I have been told I will be reevaluated within a month, and if I am not deemed satisfactory, I could be terminated. This was communicated to me in a document drafted by a partner I work with and there are gross inaccuracies contained within--which I have supporting documentation to rebut to HR. Not sure what to do.

How likely is it that that I will be outright terminated within a month without notice? Should I resign?

I have been at my current firm less than one year.

what kind of firm (is this actual biglaw) and did you get a signing bonus for this firm? I'll be honest, this type of story comes up every couple of months and it's often missing detail.

what are your billables for Q4 and Q1, what has been your feedback so far?

[Anonymous User]

OP here.I've broadened my search to SF and NYC now and am applying broadly. I am fearful, however, I might get fired/terminated before then. I have been told I will be reevaluated within a month, and if I am not deemed satisfactory, I could be terminated. This was communicated to me in a document drafted by a partner I work with and there are gross inaccuracies contained within--which I have supporting documentation to rebut to HR. Not sure what to do.

How likely is it that that I will be outright terminated within a month without notice? Should I resign?

I have been at my current firm less than one year.

what kind of firm (is this actual biglaw) and did you get a signing bonus for this firm? I'll be honest, this type of story comes up every couple of months and it's often missing detail.

what are your billables for Q4 and Q1, what has been your feedback so far?

OP here. Please see above. This is actual Biglaw. I had my performance review in Jan-Feb and it was stated by the partners that everyone liked working with me and my work was great. No complaints or criticism. I recently lateraled to the firm so my billables were slow, as you would expect, laterally to a firm right before the holidays, but I had 150+ billable months in a row. I then informed a partner of my request to transfer and then all of a sudden, I'm not billing enough, I'm not a team player, I'm not committed, etc. So idk. But I do my work.

[Anonymous User]

+1 on the skeptics here. The slow trickle of information from OP makes me wonder what else is being hidden. If OP treats work the same way as they are treating this thread, then this sounds like the type of person I do not want on my team. Like the associates who say "I checked everywhere," but actually they only skipped one place, but wait never mind they only spent 15 minutes on it and should probably do more checking. I don't mean to offend, just being honest here.

Firms don't push you out this quickly simply because you want to switch practice groups, especially corporate groups that are as short staffed as they are now. I know at least two people who asked to switch groups, were denied, and continued working at the same firm for 2-3 years after.

Anyway, if the end is nigh then double down on your lateral efforts. Ask law school classmates, etc. as others have suggested. Also, if they do give you the boot, ask for a few months of website time for after you leave. That's a relatively common courtesy in this industry.

[Anonymous User]

+1 on the skeptics here. The slow trickle of information from OP makes me wonder what else is being hidden. If OP treats work the same way as they are treating this thread, then this sounds like the type of person I do not want on my team. Like the associates who say "I checked everywhere," but actually they only skipped one place, but wait never mind they only spent 15 minutes on it and should probably do more checking. I don't mean to offend, just being honest here.

Firms don't push you out this quickly simply because you want to switch practice groups, especially corporate groups that are as short staffed as they are now. I know at least two people who asked to switch groups, were denied, and continued working at the same firm for 2-3 years after.

Anyway, if the end is nigh then double down on your lateral efforts. Ask law school classmates, etc. as others have suggested. Also, if they do give you the boot, ask for a few months of website time for after you leave. That's a relatively common courtesy in this industry.

OP here. I disagree with characterization and skepticism. The simple fact is that either I have nothing else to say or don't know what other facts you would like--forgive me if I have left out identifying information or other discrete facts which you might require to render your sage advice.

I also feel like I've given you the whole story. I'm also not going to reveal everything--obviously I'm looking for advice without outing myself. I just honestly feel they are upset. I mean wouldn't you be? You were hired for corporate work and then like 3 months later ask to switch to litigation? I'd be pissed. Doesn't mean I can't ask for it, or ask for advice here. Also doesn't equate to me being a bad employee. I just think feelings were hurt.

Also, not everyone has all day to write every detail of their story. I gave the details I thought necessary to facilitate advice. Happy to answer questions if you think they are relevant but not going to give you a ten page dissertation on my life and career.

[Anonymous User]

+1 on the skeptics here. The slow trickle of information from OP makes me wonder what else is being hidden. If OP treats work the same way as they are treating this thread, then this sounds like the type of person I do not want on my team. Like the associates who say "I checked everywhere," but actually they only skipped one place, but wait never mind they only spent 15 minutes on it and should probably do more checking. I don't mean to offend, just being honest here.

Firms don't push you out this quickly simply because you want to switch practice groups, especially corporate groups that are as short staffed as they are now. I know at least two people who asked to switch groups, were denied, and continued working at the same firm for 2-3 years after.

Anyway, if the end is nigh then double down on your lateral efforts. Ask law school classmates, etc. as others have suggested. Also, if they do give you the boot, ask for a few months of website time for after you leave. That's a relatively common courtesy in this industry.

God forbid someone not give you complete, potentially identifiable information on an Internet forum when the content of the grievances has basically nothing to do with the predicament OP is seeking advice on

[Anonymous User]

God forbid someone not give you complete, potentially identifiable information on an Internet forum when the content of the grievances has basically nothing to do with the predicament OP is seeking advice on

OP quite literally is seeking advice on these things by asking about termination timelines without giving us the full picture. If OP is doing good work and hasn't pissed anybody off, then the timeline should be long. If, on the other hand, OP isn't telling us something and there are other forces at play here, then it could be quick.

I just honestly feel they are upset. I mean wouldn't you be? You were hired for corporate work and then like 3 months later ask to switch to litigation? I'd be pissed. Doesn't mean I can't ask for it, or ask for advice here. Also doesn't equate to me being a bad employee. I just think feelings were hurt.\

No.

LOL at you thinking your firm has "feelings." You continue to damage your credibility by pushing that line. Firms only want to squeeze profits out of you. Whether or not you want to do the work they are giving you is completely irrelevant as long as you're actually doing the work. That's why the majority of the people who have weighed in on this topic are skeptical about your story. Firms just don't work that way.

The only possible way I could see the firm (or particular partners) caring is if you told them (i.e., the people giving you work) that you won't do corporate work anymore. That's not feelings. That's just a rational response to someone telling them they want out. If they couldn't put you in lit, then it shouldn't be shocking that they the next step would be a pink slip since. But if you politely raised (with the right people) that you would prefer to switch to litigation if possible but would otherwise stick around in corporate, I can't imagine a world in which it left such a stain that they would push someone out who is otherwise still profitable.

This is why we continue to ask for more details. How did you raise this? To whom? What did you say? Were there threats of leaving? What did you say about why you wants to do lit? Did you act entitled to switch or did you treat it as an exploratory question? Did you offend a particular partner in the process? All these would explain why the firm would push out an otherwise profitable associate. Merely expressing an interest in a different practice group would not.

I guess there's one other assumption here that, if wrong, could explain things. If OP is very green and still has a lot of training left before OP can become profitable, then the firm might have decided to just cut their losses. Do you know if your firm frequently writes off junior corporate work? Do you have a lot of actual training left to do such that you won't get substantive assignments for a while?

Anyway, if you really think that you're about to get axed without good cause, then it can't hurt try assuaging the powers that be that you are indeed committed. Don't grovel. Just explain that while you would prefer litigation work, you want to be clear that you will happily continue doing good corporate work as you have been doing (politely provide documentation about why the partner was wrong, but explain that you're planning to do better anyway) and that this was all just a big misunderstanding. That, of course, is a lie. But if you're asking for advice on how to keep your job while you look for another, that's what I would do.

[Anonymous User]

I totally got the OP being cautious about giving more details, but agree it's hard to really comment without having a little more information. But also, totally agree with this:

I just honestly feel they are upset. I mean wouldn't you be? You were hired for corporate work and then like 3 months later ask to switch to litigation? I'd be pissed. Doesn't mean I can't ask for it, or ask for advice here. Also doesn't equate to me being a bad employee. I just think feelings were hurt.

No.

LOL at you thinking your firm has "feelings." You continue to damage your credibility by pushing that line. Firms only want to squeeze profits out of you. Whether or not you want to do the work they are giving you is completely irrelevant as long as you're actually doing the work. That's why the majority of the people who have weighed in on this topic are skeptical about your story. Firms just don't work that way.

It's not dating or family life. It's not about hurt feelings and that's not the best lens through which to evaluate what's going on. I mean, I suppose we can't rule out the OP working exclusively for psychopaths, and I agree that if the OP is too green to really add value, sure, maybe the firm has written them off already. But it does seem likely that if this is about wanting to switch to lit, there's something else going along with it - if the firm were otherwise perfectly happy with OP and OP's work, it doesn't seem likely that a polite inquiry about doing lit is going to make them persona non grata. (Doesn't mean OP is necessarily doing anything wrong or doing bad work - sometimes the fit is just bad at a job from the start.)