Kutak Rock v. Gordon Rees - Secondary Market Forum

[Anonymous User]

Any thoughts on the reputations of either of these firms for litigation? Partnership prospects? Compensation? Etc.

[Anonymous User]

Any thoughts on the reputations of either of these firms for litigation? Partnership prospects? Compensation? Etc.

Not familiar with Kutak Rock but have crossed paths with Gordon Rees a number of times over the years. They do the full gamut of litigation but a good bit of their practice is insurance defense work, everything from general liability claims to employment practices defense to trucking to professional liability defense. Gordon Rees has a strong reputation in the ID world. I am an insurer-side coverage lawyer and Gordon Rees is one of my client's go-to defense counsel for high-exposure files. If you end up doing the insurance defense work, you will get great substantive experience but aren't going to be paid near market salary. My sense of the large insurance defense-based firms like Gordon Rees or Lewis Brisbois is that it is easier to make partner there than at a traditional BigLaw shop, but the other side of that coin is that junior partners there are almost certainly making less than senior associates at market-paying firms.

[Anonymous User]

Kutak is midlaw/“regional biglaw,” not ID, and as such it will probably pay more and be more “prestigious.” I don’t know why you would pick an ID firm over it.

[Anonymous User]

Kutak is midlaw/“regional biglaw,” not ID, and as such it will probably pay more and be more “prestigious.” I don’t know why you would pick an ID firm over it.

Interesting take. I think Gordon Rees actually may associates more, but it may not offer a clear path to equity partner. So you may make more as an associate but less in the long run.

[Anonymous User]

Kutak is midlaw/“regional biglaw,” not ID, and as such it will probably pay more and be more “prestigious.” I don’t know why you would pick an ID firm over it.

Is there a negative stigma associated with insurance defense firms?

[Lacepiece23]

Kutak is midlaw/“regional biglaw,” not ID, and as such it will probably pay more and be more “prestigious.” I don’t know why you would pick an ID firm over it.

Is there a negative stigma associated with insurance defense firms?

Absolutely. Insurance companies suck. They scrutinize your bills. You can’t charge as much for your services. Como tend to be lower. On and on.

On the other hand, I do know a couple of associates that left secondary market biglaw for Gornon Rees because they wanted to do trial work. Both made senior counsel/partner quicker than anyone at my firm. Both are still there. Can’t speak to whether they regret their decision.

[Anonymous User]

Kutak is midlaw/“regional biglaw,” not ID, and as such it will probably pay more and be more “prestigious.” I don’t know why you would pick an ID firm over it.

Is there a negative stigma associated with insurance defense firms?

Absolutely. Insurance companies suck. They scrutinize your bills. You can’t charge as much for your services. Como tend to be lower. On and on.

On the other hand, I do know a couple of associates that left secondary market biglaw for Gornon Rees because they wanted to do trial work. Both made senior counsel/partner quicker than anyone at my firm. Both are still there. Can’t speak to whether they regret their decision.

Agreed with this. ID work is tough. Low rates leading to low comp and insurance companies cut your time for technical non-compliance with their billing guidelines and pull some really JV shit like paying 1/2 for travel time or not even paying for travel time at all. Your clients are adjusters who either do not give a shit and you can never get a hold of or who are hyper anal and will blow you up if your required quarterly status report is a few days late. A lot of ID firms are volume practices, so associates can have a large number of files going at any one time. It can be stressful AF when your calendar for the week has 3 depos and 1 hearing in 4 separate cases that you have to prep for...

The one good thing is that you get real substantive experience as an associate with briefing, depos, hearings, etc. This substantive experience can be a boon for folks who start in ID but want to trade up. In my market, there are a 3 or 4 ID firms that serve as a farm system for BigLaw for associates who didn't have the grades for BigLaw out of law school but want it. They go to one of those ID shops for 2-3 years and then lateral to BigLaw having taken more depos and gotten more standup experience in court than most of their new partners... Also, if you want actual trial work, ID firms offer way more opportunity to try cases than big or mid law firms doing mostly commercial disputes. I personally haven't seen many BigLaw to ID moves in my network. BigLaw litigators who I know that wanted more substantive experience/less hours generally lateral out to government work.

[Lacepiece23]

Kutak is midlaw/“regional biglaw,” not ID, and as such it will probably pay more and be more “prestigious.” I don’t know why you would pick an ID firm over it.

Is there a negative stigma associated with insurance defense firms?

Absolutely. Insurance companies suck. They scrutinize your bills. You can’t charge as much for your services. Como tend to be lower. On and on.

On the other hand, I do know a couple of associates that left secondary market biglaw for Gornon Rees because they wanted to do trial work. Both made senior counsel/partner quicker than anyone at my firm. Both are still there. Can’t speak to whether they regret their decision.

Agreed with this. ID work is tough. Low rates leading to low comp and insurance companies cut your time for technical non-compliance with their billing guidelines and pull some really JV shit like paying 1/2 for travel time or not even paying for travel time at all. Your clients are adjusters who either do not give a shit and you can never get a hold of or who are hyper anal and will blow you up if your required quarterly status report is a few days late. A lot of ID firms are volume practices, so associates can have a large number of files going at any one time. It can be stressful AF when your calendar for the week has 3 depos and 1 hearing in 4 separate cases that you have to prep for...

The one good thing is that you get real substantive experience as an associate with briefing, depos, hearings, etc. This substantive experience can be a boon for folks who start in ID but want to trade up. In my market, there are a 3 or 4 ID firms that serve as a farm system for BigLaw for associates who didn't have the grades for BigLaw out of law school but want it. They go to one of those ID shops for 2-3 years and then lateral to BigLaw having taken more depos and gotten more standup experience in court than most of their new partners... Also, if you want actual trial work, ID firms offer way more opportunity to try cases than big or mid law firms doing mostly commercial disputes. I personally haven't seen many BigLaw to ID moves in my network. BigLaw litigators who I know that wanted more substantive experience/less hours generally lateral out to government work.

This is all very accurate and a great add on to what I said. The two folks I talked about were the exception not the rule.

[Anonymous User]

I didn't even realize that Gordon Rees was ID. I just know that they're in all 50 states, convenient for legal opinions. Seems like nice people when we worked with them.

[Anonymous User]

Kutak is midlaw/“regional biglaw,” not ID, and as such it will probably pay more and be more “prestigious.” I don’t know why you would pick an ID firm over it.

Is there a negative stigma associated with insurance defense firms?

Absolutely. Insurance companies suck. They scrutinize your bills. You can’t charge as much for your services. Como tend to be lower. On and on.

On the other hand, I do know a couple of associates that left secondary market biglaw for Gornon Rees because they wanted to do trial work. Both made senior counsel/partner quicker than anyone at my firm. Both are still there. Can’t speak to whether they regret their decision.

Agreed with this. ID work is tough. Low rates leading to low comp and insurance companies cut your time for technical non-compliance with their billing guidelines and pull some really JV shit like paying 1/2 for travel time or not even paying for travel time at all. Your clients are adjusters who either do not give a shit and you can never get a hold of or who are hyper anal and will blow you up if your required quarterly status report is a few days late. A lot of ID firms are volume practices, so associates can have a large number of files going at any one time. It can be stressful AF when your calendar for the week has 3 depos and 1 hearing in 4 separate cases that you have to prep for...

The one good thing is that you get real substantive experience as an associate with briefing, depos, hearings, etc. This substantive experience can be a boon for folks who start in ID but want to trade up. In my market, there are a 3 or 4 ID firms that serve as a farm system for BigLaw for associates who didn't have the grades for BigLaw out of law school but want it. They go to one of those ID shops for 2-3 years and then lateral to BigLaw having taken more depos and gotten more standup experience in court than most of their new partners... Also, if you want actual trial work, ID firms offer way more opportunity to try cases than big or mid law firms doing mostly commercial disputes. I personally haven't seen many BigLaw to ID moves in my network. BigLaw litigators who I know that wanted more substantive experience/less hours generally lateral out to government work.

When you talk about insurance companies, is it like Arch, AXA, Zurich, etc., or is it like Geico? Was watching TV the other day and literally every commercial was for an insurance company, high production quality with celebrities--couldn't wrap my mind around being stingy for legal services while shelling out for commercials that 99.9% of the population just mute when they come on.

[Anonymous User]

The rule with insurance companies is that the more you see their advertisements, the shittier they are to work for. Farmers can pay the big bucks to JK Simmons in those glossy commercials precisely because they pay their defense attorneys $175 an hour and then find a way to cut 10-15% off their bills. State Farm, Allstate, etc. have always been miserable to work for. One of my firms even fired State Farm as a client because the rates were appallingly low even for ID work and they cut time like crazy. The specialty insurers like Arch, Beazley, AXA, are much better to work for. Rates and are better and they aren't as crazy with cutting time. They are generally writing more sophisticated and/or higher-risk insureds and in my experience, the majority of adjusters at those types of insurers are former lawyers, so you are getting a more sophisticated/responsive client, too. I worked with adjusters at carriers like GEICO or State Farm who didn't have 4-year degrees.