Extremely Low Hours Forum

[Anonymous User]

I'm a junior (2nd-3d year) in a specialist support group, top firm, on track to bill between 700-1100 hours for the year, everyone else in the group is also very slow. When should I expect to get the talk?

[Anonymous User]

I'm a junior (2nd-3d year) in a specialist support group, top firm, on track to bill between 700-1100 hours for the year, everyone else in the group is also very slow. When should I expect to get the talk?

real soon?

[Anonymous User]

Impossible to know for sure. You could survive an entire year that low (wouldn’t be the first time someone did), or you could get a calendar invite from a partner in your group to discuss your hours tomorrow (where they suggest things aren’t working out, and the next talk won’t be so nice). If there is a partner you really trust in your group, it would be worth reaching out to them to see if you can either get more information on your status, drum up more work, or at least make it known to the firm that you’re taking the situation seriously and not just coasting.

If you really feel uncomfortable or don’t want to risk it, the answer is to lateral now while you don’t have a timer on your head.

(Former biglaw senior associate. Sorry to not be more helpful, but these types of situations are really hope for the best but expect the worst deals).

[Anonymous User]

Impossible to know for sure. You could survive an entire year that low (wouldn’t be the first time someone did), or you could get a calendar invite from a partner in your group to discuss your hours tomorrow (where they suggest things aren’t working out, and the next talk won’t be so nice). If there is a partner you really trust in your group, it would be worth reaching out to them to see if you can either get more information on your status, drum up more work, or at least make it known to the firm that you’re taking the situation seriously and not just coasting.

If you really feel uncomfortable or don’t want to risk it, the answer is to lateral now while you don’t have a timer on your head.

(Former biglaw senior associate. Sorry to not be more helpful, but these types of situations are really hope for the best but expect the worst deals).

Would your opinion change if this was a mini-group with just one partner providing all the work and a bunch of associates underneath her?

[Anonymous User]

Really hard to know. Maybe check in with an associate or so if they're doing anything special. Otherwise, just enjoy the easy paycheck! Doesn't sound like it's your problem or fault; just the partners not bringing in work. They're probably the ones worried, about themselves, not you.

[Anonymous User]

Impossible to know for sure. You could survive an entire year that low (wouldn’t be the first time someone did), or you could get a calendar invite from a partner in your group to discuss your hours tomorrow (where they suggest things aren’t working out, and the next talk won’t be so nice). If there is a partner you really trust in your group, it would be worth reaching out to them to see if you can either get more information on your status, drum up more work, or at least make it known to the firm that you’re taking the situation seriously and not just coasting.

If you really feel uncomfortable or don’t want to risk it, the answer is to lateral now while you don’t have a timer on your head.

(Former biglaw senior associate. Sorry to not be more helpful, but these types of situations are really hope for the best but expect the worst deals).

Would your opinion change if this was a mini-group with just one partner providing all the work and a bunch of associates underneath her?

You are probably more likely to survive lean times in a tiny group or tiny office, since it’s a bigger burden to replace you than it would be to replace a generic lit/corp associate in a massive group. But it depends on the partner more than anything, and whether she both has the political capital to protect her associates and is willing to actually fight to do so. Some partners are more than willing to churn associates without blinking an eye. Others are more humane. You won’t really know until the chips are down, unless senior associates in the group can give you some relevant background history.

[Anonymous User]

Same here except I'm a first year, '21, and my firm has hired more first-years into my specialist group than ever before given the speed of the last year or so. Sorry to hijack OP's post, but really... how bad is this? I'm billing maybe 10-20 hrs a week.

[papermateflair]

Impossible to know for sure. You could survive an entire year that low (wouldn’t be the first time someone did), or you could get a calendar invite from a partner in your group to discuss your hours tomorrow (where they suggest things aren’t working out, and the next talk won’t be so nice). If there is a partner you really trust in your group, it would be worth reaching out to them to see if you can either get more information on your status, drum up more work, or at least make it known to the firm that you’re taking the situation seriously and not just coasting.

If you really feel uncomfortable or don’t want to risk it, the answer is to lateral now while you don’t have a timer on your head.

(Former biglaw senior associate. Sorry to not be more helpful, but these types of situations are really hope for the best but expect the worst deals).

Would your opinion change if this was a mini-group with just one partner providing all the work and a bunch of associates underneath her?

Different person than the Anon who answered this, but if you work for just one partner, have you talked to her about your hours at all? Have you explored getting work from other groups? If someone in my niche group had this little to do, we would expect them to (1) tell the partners, and (2) be proactive about reaching out to other groups (or at least ask our group's partners if they could ask for work from others). If you can't get work from other groups or can't talk to this partner (even if you've been working for them for a couple of years) then I agree that the answer is to start looking to lateral.

When you do get work that comes in, do it immediately and communicate your availability to do more - you didn't ask this but I think sometimes when associates aren't busy they procrastinate.

The folks at my firm who have made it through years with hours this low were extremely proactive about their hours and communicating their availability, and turning around projects quickly when they get them. Associates who did not communicate what their hours looked like or who didn't ask for work, or left at 4 PM when they had nothing to do (which I think is a fair approach, but partners may disagree) were the ones who the partners blamed for slacking off and not working hard. You may work for a great partner who will go to bat for you, or you make work for someone who will blame you if you're not busy (even though 700 hours a year is almost certainly not your fault). Do everything you can to make a case that it's not you - that everyone knew you were ready and willing to do work, and the partner is the one who didn't come through.

[Anonymous User]

Impossible to know for sure. You could survive an entire year that low (wouldn’t be the first time someone did), or you could get a calendar invite from a partner in your group to discuss your hours tomorrow (where they suggest things aren’t working out, and the next talk won’t be so nice). If there is a partner you really trust in your group, it would be worth reaching out to them to see if you can either get more information on your status, drum up more work, or at least make it known to the firm that you’re taking the situation seriously and not just coasting.

If you really feel uncomfortable or don’t want to risk it, the answer is to lateral now while you don’t have a timer on your head.

(Former biglaw senior associate. Sorry to not be more helpful, but these types of situations are really hope for the best but expect the worst deals).

Would your opinion change if this was a mini-group with just one partner providing all the work and a bunch of associates underneath her?

Different person than the Anon who answered this, but if you work for just one partner, have you talked to her about your hours at all? Have you explored getting work from other groups? If someone in my niche group had this little to do, we would expect them to (1) tell the partners, and (2) be proactive about reaching out to other groups (or at least ask our group's partners if they could ask for work from others). If you can't get work from other groups or can't talk to this partner (even if you've been working for them for a couple of years) then I agree that the answer is to start looking to lateral.

When you do get work that comes in, do it immediately and communicate your availability to do more - you didn't ask this but I think sometimes when associates aren't busy they procrastinate.

The folks at my firm who have made it through years with hours this low were extremely proactive about their hours and communicating their availability, and turning around projects quickly when they get them. Associates who did not communicate what their hours looked like or who didn't ask for work, or left at 4 PM when they had nothing to do (which I think is a fair approach, but partners may disagree) were the ones who the partners blamed for slacking off and not working hard. You may work for a great partner who will go to bat for you, or you make work for someone who will blame you if you're not busy (even though 700 hours a year is almost certainly not your fault). Do everything you can to make a case that it's not you - that everyone knew you were ready and willing to do work, and the partner is the one who didn't come through.

Yes, I've spoken to partners/seniors and they said not to worry. For clarity, all other associates are also extremely slow, so this a well known problem, not sure how to keep asking for work without being annoying.

[papermateflair]

If your practice group is telling you it's fine, then presumably they're ok with it for now. Still may be worth evaluating where you sit in the group and how long has been going on, and opportunistically look around to see if there are places you wouldn't mind lateralling to. And ask the partners how they want you to spend the time you have - I don't think you need to like, go all out and do 12 hours a day of pro bono, but try and do a few things you can point to that show you weren't just "reading articles" all day. Maybe the partners have some non-billable projects (shiver) for you to work on. Using the downtime to try and improve some skills is sometimes just appreciated by partners, and sometimes it's expected, and you should make sure you know what your group expectations are.

[Anonymous User]

Same here except I'm a first year, '21, and my firm has hired more first-years into my specialist group than ever before given the speed of the last year or so. Sorry to hijack OP's post, but really... how bad is this? I'm billing maybe 10-20 hrs a week.

Billing 10-20 hours a week while your firm is hiring more laterals into your group (because it’s busy) is bad. You should talk to a trusted mentor ASAP and/or look into lateraling if you don’t really wanna try at that firm (no shame in that).

[Anonymous User]

Same here except I'm a first year, '21, and my firm has hired more first-years into my specialist group than ever before given the speed of the last year or so. Sorry to hijack OP's post, but really... how bad is this? I'm billing maybe 10-20 hrs a week.

Billing 10-20 hours a week while your firm is hiring more laterals into your group (because it’s busy) is bad. You should talk to a trusted mentor ASAP and/or look into lateraling if you don’t really wanna try at that firm (no shame in that).

If they're hiring first years, presumably those are not laterals. I think the bigger issue would be a slow 3rd year whose firm is hiring 3rd year laterals

[Anonymous User]

In my opinion, this thread exemplifies what is wrong with lawyers in biglaw. Entire group is slow. Instead of telling the associate to relax (as the busy times will definitely come at some point), they're telling him to annoy the crap out of the partner for work that doesn't exist, switch practice areas in the hope for more work or hell, even lateral to an entirely different firm, on this holy quest for more work. Whatever happens, associate can not chill out. He. Must. Work.

I think if a layperson saw this thread, they were probably left wondering "woah, guess associates' hours determine their salary and this kid is making minimum wage if he doesn't get those numbers up." For those people: no, OP will get the exact same salary (probably missing out on their small bonus regardless of what happens from this point onwards). "Why does OP have to lateral for more work though?" you ask? Well, because lawyers are anxious as hell and won't feel at ease until they're billing 2200 hours a year, so they can feel like a big boy lawyer and can burn out in two years, bitching to their few friends who they have left (all other (ex-)biglaw associates, of course) about "how biglaw is horrible and it robbed them of all social life and dating opportunities."

[Anonymous User]

In my opinion, this thread exemplifies what is wrong with lawyers in biglaw. Entire group is slow. Instead of telling the associate to relax (as the busy times will definitely come at some point), they're telling him to annoy the crap out of the partner for work that doesn't exist, switch practice areas in the hope for more work or hell, even lateral to an entirely different firm, on this holy quest for more work. Whatever happens, associate can not chill out. He. Must. Work.

I think if a layperson saw this thread, they were probably left wondering "woah, guess associates' hours determine their salary and this kid is making minimum wage if he doesn't get those numbers up." For those people: no, OP will get the exact same salary (probably missing out on their small bonus regardless of what happens from this point onwards). "Why does OP have to lateral for more work though?" you ask? Well, because lawyers are anxious as hell and won't feel at ease until they're billing 2200 hours a year, so they can feel like a big boy lawyer and can burn out in two years, bitching to their few friends who they have left (all other (ex-)biglaw associates, of course) about "how biglaw is horrible and it robbed them of all social life and dating opportunities."

Um ya...in the real world associate is (correctly) worrying about being shown the door and having difficulty finding another job (law firms tend to view low hours as a sign of incompetence rather than of a weak group). Very reasonable to be highly concerned about your job soon ending when you are a significant financial drag on the firm.

[Anonymous User]

In my opinion, this thread exemplifies what is wrong with lawyers in biglaw. Entire group is slow. Instead of telling the associate to relax (as the busy times will definitely come at some point), they're telling him to annoy the crap out of the partner for work that doesn't exist, switch practice areas in the hope for more work or hell, even lateral to an entirely different firm, on this holy quest for more work. Whatever happens, associate can not chill out. He. Must. Work.

I think if a layperson saw this thread, they were probably left wondering "woah, guess associates' hours determine their salary and this kid is making minimum wage if he doesn't get those numbers up." For those people: no, OP will get the exact same salary (probably missing out on their small bonus regardless of what happens from this point onwards). "Why does OP have to lateral for more work though?" you ask? Well, because lawyers are anxious as hell and won't feel at ease until they're billing 2200 hours a year, so they can feel like a big boy lawyer and can burn out in two years, bitching to their few friends who they have left (all other (ex-)biglaw associates, of course) about "how biglaw is horrible and it robbed them of all social life and dating opportunities."

Exactly, I'm OP and this entire thread feels like gaslighting, particularly because I'm at a firm that is very siloed and it's not really possible to ask for work from other groups. Don't care at all about missing bonus - just don't want to suddenly get fired due to not getting work which is completely beyond my control. If this keeps going for a few more months I'll probably just start applying for in-house roles in earnest.

[Anonymous User]

In my opinion, this thread exemplifies what is wrong with lawyers in biglaw. Entire group is slow. Instead of telling the associate to relax (as the busy times will definitely come at some point), they're telling him to annoy the crap out of the partner for work that doesn't exist, switch practice areas in the hope for more work or hell, even lateral to an entirely different firm, on this holy quest for more work. Whatever happens, associate can not chill out. He. Must. Work.

I think if a layperson saw this thread, they were probably left wondering "woah, guess associates' hours determine their salary and this kid is making minimum wage if he doesn't get those numbers up." For those people: no, OP will get the exact same salary (probably missing out on their small bonus regardless of what happens from this point onwards). "Why does OP have to lateral for more work though?" you ask? Well, because lawyers are anxious as hell and won't feel at ease until they're billing 2200 hours a year, so they can feel like a big boy lawyer and can burn out in two years, bitching to their few friends who they have left (all other (ex-)biglaw associates, of course) about "how biglaw is horrible and it robbed them of all social life and dating opportunities."

Exactly, I'm OP and this entire thread feels like gaslighting, particularly because I'm at a firm that is very siloed and it's not really possible to ask for work from other groups. Don't care at all about missing bonus - just don't want to suddenly get fired due to not getting work which is completely beyond my control. If this keeps going for a few more months I'll probably just start applying for in-house roles in earnest.

At my firm, your situation would be no big deal for a 1st year. Maybe a bit more concerning for a 3rd year, but no reason to proactively quit over this.

[Anonymous User]

Same here except I'm a first year, '21, and my firm has hired more first-years into my specialist group than ever before given the speed of the last year or so. Sorry to hijack OP's post, but really... how bad is this? I'm billing maybe 10-20 hrs a week.

Billing 10-20 hours a week while your firm is hiring more laterals into your group (because it’s busy) is bad. You should talk to a trusted mentor ASAP and/or look into lateraling if you don’t really wanna try at that firm (no shame in that).

If they're hiring first years, presumably those are not laterals. I think the bigger issue would be a slow 3rd year whose firm is hiring 3rd year laterals

Original anon here. Yeah, they're currently looking to hire lateral seniors, no more first years. It's just that the firm has twice as many first years as it usually does now and we're all sitting around not generating profit. I really like the group so far but I am concerned that I haven't learned enough to be able to speak intelligently about my practice group in a lateral interview. There are just no deals coming in at the moment.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

You're looking a gift horse in the mouth, not realizing how lucky you (and everyone else in your group) has been to be on a <1000 hour pace through no fault of your own and not even get a mild chiding about it (and FYI, "the warning" normally comes before "the talk" does).

You may not even realize that chilling for a year like this actually will likely *extend* your career, because your burnout clock is at zero compared to your friends billing 2500. Presuming you're able to do something you enjoy during your downtime (Reddit, Netflix, whatever), you're receiving a massive benefit, compared to a downside scenario of...getting three months to lateral in a hot market where you'd probably get a year-end bonus guaranteed somewhere else. That's cash on the table you might want to take regardless but until then, I advise you to ride out your good fortune until something significant changes.

[Anonymous User]

I would think the real downside is that you won't be learning much with so little work. Especially in the beginning, a lot of it is just figuring out how to do certain things through reps. If you don't get that experience early and then move up in seniority, you run the risk of being expected in a year or two to be more skilled than you actually are, simply based on your class year, because you have not had the chance to practice the skills you need, and then looking like you are incompetent or not a good lawyer rather than a 3rd year with the skills and experience of a 1.5 year because you basically sat on the bench for a year.

[Anonymous User]

I would think the real downside is that you won't be learning much with so little work. Especially in the beginning, a lot of it is just figuring out how to do certain things through reps. If you don't get that experience early and then move up in seniority, you run the risk of being expected in a year or two to be more skilled than you actually are, simply based on your class year, because you have not had the chance to practice the skills you need, and then looking like you are incompetent or not a good lawyer rather than a 3rd year with the skills and experience of a 1.5 year because you basically sat on the bench for a year.

Reps are overrated as a junior. You can learn a huge amount on very few deals if you commit to being focused and mining the more senior lawyers for information.

Free time is valuable in your first few years if you can use it to build your substantive knowledge rather than being overwhelmed with very low level work.

[Anonymous User]

I was in a very similar situation years ago when I was a 3rd yerar at a V30 major market. I just chilled and relaxed for 2/3 of the year and lateraled out to my current firm in a different market. Things were slow for the rest of the year at my current firm as well. So I had a restful year. Then things picked up and I started to get crushed with work from the following year, and that crazy deal flow has been nonstop from that point until now. I even had to cancel my vacation plans last summer. Billed 2100 hours last year and on track for 2500 hours this year. So what I'm trying to say is, relax when you can. Things will get busy again in your biglaw career and you will miss those slow times.