Reasons for picking Jones Day - NY? Forum

[Anonymous User]

It makes sense why people in secondary markets would choose Jones Day in secondary markets, but what are the reasons why someone would choose Jones Day over other comparable firms in New York?

I found a few T14 lawyers at Jones Day New York's office, and these associates probably could have picked another firm in New York that wouldn't adhere to the blackbox compensation system.

[Anonymous User]

It's possible that they pay NY associates more than market.

[Anonymous User]

It makes sense why people in secondary markets would choose Jones Day in secondary markets, but what are the reasons why someone would choose Jones Day over other comparable firms in New York?

I found a few T14 lawyers at Jones Day New York's office, and these associates probably could have picked another firm in New York that wouldn't adhere to the blackbox compensation system.

I would think the big draw is that this is a conservative, pro Donald-Trump environment. If you are a hard line social conservative, gotta think NY biglaw feels overwhelmingly liberal and pretty miserable. Probably worth a significant $$$ amount to be comfortable being open about your political views. Also, JD is a good stepping stone into a GOP administration.

[Anonymous User]

It makes sense why people in secondary markets would choose Jones Day in secondary markets, but what are the reasons why someone would choose Jones Day over other comparable firms in New York?

I found a few T14 lawyers at Jones Day New York's office, and these associates probably could have picked another firm in New York that wouldn't adhere to the blackbox compensation system.

Blackbox compensation is a selling point for some associates (especially T14 grads in I&A and other competitive practice groups). Otherwise, probably some mix of hours (better than V15 but hardly "lifestyle"), partnership opportunities (much better than V15, but with correspondingly lower pay), and political culture (more conservative than your typical NY big law, but still mostly liberal, at least in the NY office).

[Anonymous User]

I'm not sure if in years past it was as known how much they compress salaries. And you find T14 grads at much lower ranked firms, below market firms, etc. Doesn't mean it was necessarily by choice.

[Anonymous User]

It makes sense why people in secondary markets would choose Jones Day in secondary markets, but what are the reasons why someone would choose Jones Day over other comparable firms in New York?

I found a few T14 lawyers at Jones Day New York's office, and these associates probably could have picked another firm in New York that wouldn't adhere to the blackbox compensation system.

I may know one of those T14 lawyers, went to high school with him. He was very smart and we were friends as kids, but as we grew up he progressively became a douchey, clout-chasing, ego-driven, would-be-surprised-if-he-hasn't-invested-in-crypto kind of guy. Based on what I know about Jones Day, I think he would legitimately be attracted to the culture there, although I'm unsure if he's a conservative or not (if he was in FedSoc or things of the like, it'd just be a networking thing for him I think).

[Anonymous User]

It makes sense why people in secondary markets would choose Jones Day in secondary markets, but what are the reasons why someone would choose Jones Day over other comparable firms in New York?

I found a few T14 lawyers at Jones Day New York's office, and these associates probably could have picked another firm in New York that wouldn't adhere to the blackbox compensation system.

I may know one of those T14 lawyers, went to high school with him. He was very smart and we were friends as kids, but as we grew up he progressively became a douchey, clout-chasing, ego-driven, would-be-surprised-if-he-hasn't-invested-in-crypto kind of guy. Based on what I know about Jones Day, I think he would legitimately be attracted to the culture there, although I'm unsure if he's a conservative or not (if he was in FedSoc or things of the like, it'd just be a networking thing for him I think).

This is literally the exact opposite of JD's culture. JD is conservative (both politically and culturally) and it screens for cooperativeness, humility, and respect. Just look at how the firm is set up: decisions are top-down, clients are held collectively (not by rainmakers), pay is confidential, media contacts are discouraged, entrepreneurship is viewed skeptically, and self-aggrandizement is a major faux pas. A crypto bro would fit in better at a cutthroat and innovative firm like K&E.

[Anonymous User]

It makes sense why people in secondary markets would choose Jones Day in secondary markets, but what are the reasons why someone would choose Jones Day over other comparable firms in New York?

I found a few T14 lawyers at Jones Day New York's office, and these associates probably could have picked another firm in New York that wouldn't adhere to the blackbox compensation system.

Jones Day hires from the bottom of the class at NYU. It may be the best that most can do.

Nevertheless, the Brookfield Place location is unbeatable. Long walks along the waterfront every day!

[Anonymous User]

It makes sense why people in secondary markets would choose Jones Day in secondary markets, but what are the reasons why someone would choose Jones Day over other comparable firms in New York?

I found a few T14 lawyers at Jones Day New York's office, and these associates probably could have picked another firm in New York that wouldn't adhere to the blackbox compensation system.

Jones Day hires from the bottom of the class at NYU. It may be the best that most can do.

Nevertheless, the Brookfield Place location is unbeatable. Long walks along the waterfront every day!

Biglaw is highly cyclical. If they hired from the bottom in the last 2 years, it's because we were in boom times. Next recession, NYU students will be begging for that JD offer.

[Anonymous User]

It makes sense why people in secondary markets would choose Jones Day in secondary markets, but what are the reasons why someone would choose Jones Day over other comparable firms in New York?

I found a few T14 lawyers at Jones Day New York's office, and these associates probably could have picked another firm in New York that wouldn't adhere to the blackbox compensation system.

I would think the big draw is that this is a conservative, pro Donald-Trump environment. If you are a hard line social conservative, gotta think NY biglaw feels overwhelmingly liberal and pretty miserable. Probably worth a significant $$$ amount to be comfortable being open about your political views. Also, JD is a good stepping stone into a GOP administration.

There was definitely a revolving door with the Trump Admin & Jones Day DC, but is this really possible for Jones Day NY? On the margins, wouldn't a conservative NY V10 lawyer have a better shot at a GOP administration over a JD-NY lawyer?

[Anonymous User]

It makes sense why people in secondary markets would choose Jones Day in secondary markets, but what are the reasons why someone would choose Jones Day over other comparable firms in New York?

I found a few T14 lawyers at Jones Day New York's office, and these associates probably could have picked another firm in New York that wouldn't adhere to the blackbox compensation system.

I would think the big draw is that this is a conservative, pro Donald-Trump environment. If you are a hard line social conservative, gotta think NY biglaw feels overwhelmingly liberal and pretty miserable. Probably worth a significant $$$ amount to be comfortable being open about your political views. Also, JD is a good stepping stone into a GOP administration.

There was definitely a revolving door with the Trump Admin & Jones Day DC, but is this really possible for Jones Day NY? On the margins, wouldn't a conservative NY V10 lawyer have a better shot at a GOP administration over a JD-NY lawyer?

No, because administration slots are decided through connections, not talent -- this goes for both parties by the way. But JD NY (and JD in general) isn't a particularly conservative place anyway, outside of the I&A practice, the firm is overwhelmingly liberal, just less so than others.

[Anonymous User]

Jones Day NY is not particularly conservative afaik, so the theories that people choose it because it’s conservative seem very dubious. It’s not unusual for an office to have a DC/appellate practice that’s not reflective of the firm as a whole—nobody says GDC LA is conservative because GDC Dallas and DC are major destinations for Fed Soc gunners. PW, S&C, and (especially) K&E also have notably conservative DC appeals groups.

[Anonymous User]

Jones Day NY is not particularly conservative afaik, so the theories that people choose it because it’s conservative seem very dubious. It’s not unusual for an office to have a DC/appellate practice that’s not reflective of the firm as a whole—nobody says GDC LA is conservative because GDC Dallas and DC are major destinations for Fed Soc gunners. PW, S&C, and (especially) K&E also have notably conservative DC appeals groups.

You have to look at things on a relative basis. Relative to Paul Weiss where representing Guantanamo Bay detainees is lauded, BLM is an heroic organization and promoting too many white male partners is embarrassing? Jones Day looks pretty darn conservative. If you are a more strident conservative, life at NY biglaw is pretty painful, and JD offers a much more comfortable environment.

[Anonymous User]

Former JD associate, want to provide insight into the conservative vs liberal thing.

As a whole, Jones Day attorneys are not particularly more conservative than other biglaw firms. Between New York, San Francisco, and Los Angeles, there are close to no openly conservative attorneys. I certainly wouldn’t feel comfortable as a conservative in any of those offices. From working with the Texas offices, my impression is that the vast majority there are standard-fare Biglaw liberals. I have heard that the Ohio offices, Irvine, San Diego, Pittsburgh are more politically mixed—but still skew toward Democrats. The firm’s conservative reputation stems largely from the political law group and some of the appellate group—perhaps 40 attorneys total, nearly all in DC. These attorneys tend to represent the GOP/conservative interest groups (and get deservedly bad press for doing so).

Link below is interesting in showing how few JD employees donate to republicans. I’ve also parsed the FEC donation data closer and can say that most of the GOP donors aren’t attorneys, but other staff members.

https://excessofdemocracy.com/blog/202 ... format=amp

That said, I’m not trying to excuse the firms close affiliation with the GOP. It was definitely a deliberate strategic decision made by firm leadership in DC and went beyond what similarly “conservative” firms like GDC and K&E have done. But I don’t think it’s fair to assume that the firms conservative contingency in DC significantly shifts the politics in LA or SF or NY.

[Anonymous User]

This is literally the exact opposite of JD's culture. JD is conservative (both politically and culturally) and it screens for cooperativeness, humility, and respect. Just look at how the firm is set up: decisions are top-down, clients are held collectively (not by rainmakers), pay is confidential, media contacts are discouraged, entrepreneurship is viewed skeptically, and self-aggrandizement is a major faux pas. A crypto bro would fit in better at a cutthroat and innovative firm like K&E.

+1. I'd add that JD hours are much better than other V20 firms: you'd expect 1800-2000 hours, and 2100+ hours are looked upon as working too hard.

[Anonymous User]

This is not specific to NYC, but I do have a few thoughts based from what I've heard from some DC JD associates.

First, though it would shock the conscience of some here, there are some who are not pure profit maximizers. In that sense, they may be willing forgo some pay for something else - be it culture (Fed Soc or otherwise), a particular practice group, or anything else listed below. I've heard at least one JD associate say we're all overcompensated and fixating on a few thousand dollars or massive bonuses in the height of the pandemic is petty, undeserved, and unbecoming. Maybe it's a justification for receiving less comp.

Second, as corollary, I think either JD didn't underpay as much in the past, or their underpayments for more senior associates have become more public of late. A few people I know there weren't particularly upset with their comp until the more recent salary/bonus wars. They also had serious midlevel retention issues (many felt duped by black box) before the pandemic made that a thing everywhere, likely due to unpublished compression.

Third, apart from a few relatively selective NYC firms, most other firms have hard hours requirements somewhere between 1900-2000. For someone who can't land one of those firms, JD poses an alternative where you could theoretically scoot by with lower hours for years and still make some good money (even if slightly less than you would make elsewhere).

Fourth, JD does beat market for some hardworking associates. My guess is that more people think ex ante that they'll fall into this category, especially given my next point.

Fifth, JD often times hires a good deal of scrappy non-T14 attorneys at the top of their class. I think JD recruits them harder than the other NYC firms, which are more focused on T14 and think the non-T14 students should be grateful for their offer.

Sixth, for mathematically illiterate law students, the idea of getting paid a higher salary without a bonus sounds attractive, especially if they don't realize they end up undercompensated in the end.

Seventh, for law students who know nothing of the world, the idea of NLG (no practice group commitment for 1 year) probably sounds pretty attractive. We can quibble about whether it's a good thing or not (just like CSM's system), but it's bound to catch the eye of at least a few law students.

Eight, this may be less true now as the Lathams and K&E's of the world continue to grow, but JD's massive footprint combined with the "one firm" policy is probably another selling point. They have work in literally every practice area imaginable in almost any city in the world. Compensation aside, I'd prefer JD to other shops like DLA, NRF, K&L, GT, etc. Maybe even MLB if I'm being honest. J&D is far better ranked than these firms, which is probably another selling point (again, quibble whether that matters).

Ninth, partnership prospects, etc. as others have noted.

[Anonymous User]

This is not specific to NYC, but I do have a few thoughts based from what I've heard from some DC JD associates.

First, though it would shock the conscience of some here, there are some who are not pure profit maximizers. In that sense, they may be willing forgo some pay for something else - be it culture (Fed Soc or otherwise), a particular practice group, or anything else listed below. I've heard at least one JD associate say we're all overcompensated and fixating on a few thousand dollars or massive bonuses in the height of the pandemic is petty, undeserved, and unbecoming. Maybe it's a justification for receiving less comp.

Second, as corollary, I think either JD didn't underpay as much in the past, or their underpayments for more senior associates have become more public of late. A few people I know there weren't particularly upset with their comp until the more recent salary/bonus wars. They also had serious midlevel retention issues (many felt duped by black box) before the pandemic made that a thing everywhere, likely due to unpublished compression.

Third, apart from a few relatively selective NYC firms, most other firms have hard hours requirements somewhere between 1900-2000. For someone who can't land one of those firms, JD poses an alternative where you could theoretically scoot by with lower hours for years and still make some good money (even if slightly less than you would make elsewhere).

Fourth, JD does beat market for some hardworking associates. My guess is that more people think ex ante that they'll fall into this category, especially given my next point.

Fifth, JD often times hires a good deal of scrappy non-T14 attorneys at the top of their class. I think JD recruits them harder than the other NYC firms, which are more focused on T14 and think the non-T14 students should be grateful for their offer.

Sixth, for mathematically illiterate law students, the idea of getting paid a higher salary without a bonus sounds attractive, especially if they don't realize they end up undercompensated in the end.

Seventh, for law students who know nothing of the world, the idea of NLG (no practice group commitment for 1 year) probably sounds pretty attractive. We can quibble about whether it's a good thing or not (just like CSM's system), but it's bound to catch the eye of at least a few law students.

Eight, this may be less true now as the Lathams and K&E's of the world continue to grow, but JD's massive footprint combined with the "one firm" policy is probably another selling point. They have work in literally every practice area imaginable in almost any city in the world. Compensation aside, I'd prefer JD to other shops like DLA, NRF, K&L, GT, etc. Maybe even MLB if I'm being honest. J&D is far better ranked than these firms, which is probably another selling point (again, quibble whether that matters).

Ninth, partnership prospects, etc. as others have noted.

Through NLG, do Jones Day associates have meaningful choice in which practice group they'd like? I heard some firms pretend they have a rotational option for first years, but a lot of people get slotted into corporate groups even if the associate wants litigation

[Anonymous User]

This is not specific to NYC, but I do have a few thoughts based from what I've heard from some DC JD associates.

First, though it would shock the conscience of some here, there are some who are not pure profit maximizers. In that sense, they may be willing forgo some pay for something else - be it culture (Fed Soc or otherwise), a particular practice group, or anything else listed below. I've heard at least one JD associate say we're all overcompensated and fixating on a few thousand dollars or massive bonuses in the height of the pandemic is petty, undeserved, and unbecoming. Maybe it's a justification for receiving less comp.

Second, as corollary, I think either JD didn't underpay as much in the past, or their underpayments for more senior associates have become more public of late. A few people I know there weren't particularly upset with their comp until the more recent salary/bonus wars. They also had serious midlevel retention issues (many felt duped by black box) before the pandemic made that a thing everywhere, likely due to unpublished compression.

Third, apart from a few relatively selective NYC firms, most other firms have hard hours requirements somewhere between 1900-2000. For someone who can't land one of those firms, JD poses an alternative where you could theoretically scoot by with lower hours for years and still make some good money (even if slightly less than you would make elsewhere).

Fourth, JD does beat market for some hardworking associates. My guess is that more people think ex ante that they'll fall into this category, especially given my next point.

Fifth, JD often times hires a good deal of scrappy non-T14 attorneys at the top of their class. I think JD recruits them harder than the other NYC firms, which are more focused on T14 and think the non-T14 students should be grateful for their offer.

Sixth, for mathematically illiterate law students, the idea of getting paid a higher salary without a bonus sounds attractive, especially if they don't realize they end up undercompensated in the end.

Seventh, for law students who know nothing of the world, the idea of NLG (no practice group commitment for 1 year) probably sounds pretty attractive. We can quibble about whether it's a good thing or not (just like CSM's system), but it's bound to catch the eye of at least a few law students.

Eight, this may be less true now as the Lathams and K&E's of the world continue to grow, but JD's massive footprint combined with the "one firm" policy is probably another selling point. They have work in literally every practice area imaginable in almost any city in the world. Compensation aside, I'd prefer JD to other shops like DLA, NRF, K&L, GT, etc. Maybe even MLB if I'm being honest. J&D is far better ranked than these firms, which is probably another selling point (again, quibble whether that matters).

Ninth, partnership prospects, etc. as others have noted.

Great post. You mentioned that "apart from a few relatively selective NYC firms, most other firms have hard hours requirements somewhere between 1900-2000" -- which firms are you referring to? (I am looking into post-clerkship NYC firms.)

[Anonymous User]

This is not specific to NYC, but I do have a few thoughts based from what I've heard from some DC JD associates.

First, though it would shock the conscience of some here, there are some who are not pure profit maximizers. In that sense, they may be willing forgo some pay for something else - be it culture (Fed Soc or otherwise), a particular practice group, or anything else listed below. I've heard at least one JD associate say we're all overcompensated and fixating on a few thousand dollars or massive bonuses in the height of the pandemic is petty, undeserved, and unbecoming. Maybe it's a justification for receiving less comp.

Second, as corollary, I think either JD didn't underpay as much in the past, or their underpayments for more senior associates have become more public of late. A few people I know there weren't particularly upset with their comp until the more recent salary/bonus wars. They also had serious midlevel retention issues (many felt duped by black box) before the pandemic made that a thing everywhere, likely due to unpublished compression.

Third, apart from a few relatively selective NYC firms, most other firms have hard hours requirements somewhere between 1900-2000. For someone who can't land one of those firms, JD poses an alternative where you could theoretically scoot by with lower hours for years and still make some good money (even if slightly less than you would make elsewhere).

Fourth, JD does beat market for some hardworking associates. My guess is that more people think ex ante that they'll fall into this category, especially given my next point.

Fifth, JD often times hires a good deal of scrappy non-T14 attorneys at the top of their class. I think JD recruits them harder than the other NYC firms, which are more focused on T14 and think the non-T14 students should be grateful for their offer.

Sixth, for mathematically illiterate law students, the idea of getting paid a higher salary without a bonus sounds attractive, especially if they don't realize they end up undercompensated in the end.

Seventh, for law students who know nothing of the world, the idea of NLG (no practice group commitment for 1 year) probably sounds pretty attractive. We can quibble about whether it's a good thing or not (just like CSM's system), but it's bound to catch the eye of at least a few law students.

Eight, this may be less true now as the Lathams and K&E's of the world continue to grow, but JD's massive footprint combined with the "one firm" policy is probably another selling point. They have work in literally every practice area imaginable in almost any city in the world. Compensation aside, I'd prefer JD to other shops like DLA, NRF, K&L, GT, etc. Maybe even MLB if I'm being honest. J&D is far better ranked than these firms, which is probably another selling point (again, quibble whether that matters).

Ninth, partnership prospects, etc. as others have noted.

Great post. You mentioned that "apart from a few relatively selective NYC firms, most other firms have hard hours requirements somewhere between 1900-2000" -- which firms are you referring to? (I am looking into post-clerkship NYC firms.)

Different poster. Patterson Belknap comes to mind. I cosign the above post about hours, with the caveat that it varies by group. JD M&A people still put in long hours; JD I&A may have the chillest job in all of law.

[Anonymous User]

Great post. You mentioned that "apart from a few relatively selective NYC firms, most other firms have hard hours requirements somewhere between 1900-2000" -- which firms are you referring to? (I am looking into post-clerkship NYC firms.)

Different poster. Patterson Belknap comes to mind. I cosign the above post about hours, with the caveat that it varies by group. JD M&A people still put in long hours; JD I&A may have the chillest job in all of law.

9 theses poster here. I don't know the firms off the top of my head (I'm not at any of these), but I believe they include firms like Paul comma Weis, Cleary, etc., which are pretty selective. To be clear, lots of associates work long hours at firms that theoretically have no requirement to do so. People will argue both sides of the issue, but I personally think it's easier to throw in the towel if you're on track to meet (or have already exceeded) an explicit requirement.

[Anonymous User]

Not to hijack this thread, but does the overall consensus around here sound like - notwithstanding potential pay issues - Jones Day NY is a good and relatively "happy" place to work for? I often have a hard time getting opinions on this because so much of Jones Day discussion gets mired in the pay issue or in the potential politics of the firm. I'm genuinely curious about just QOL/employee satisfaction.

[Anonymous User]

Not to hijack this thread, but does the overall consensus around here sound like - notwithstanding potential pay issues - Jones Day NY is a good and relatively "happy" place to work for? I often have a hard time getting opinions on this because so much of Jones Day discussion gets mired in the pay issue or in the potential politics of the firm. I'm genuinely curious about just QOL/employee satisfaction.

FWIW the associates I know picked JD for QOL and family circumstances and do not regret that decision.

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

The daughter of the Tiger Mom who is an HLS 3L right now is going to Jones Day NY I think. I'm guessing that this does have something to do with a future conservative political career.

Why would you say this? I've not heard the Tiger Mom as being politically conservative.

[Anonymous User]

The daughter of the Tiger Mom who is an HLS 3L right now is going to Jones Day NY I think. I'm guessing that this does have something to do with a future conservative political career.

Nah it's bc of the 400k SCOTUS clerk bonus.