Lateraling to Singapore? Bad move? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I'm a Capital Markets associate in London in one of the US firms' satellite offices in the UK. Been here for three years now and I figured it would be time for to return to the US (which was my goal from the start). I'm currently in talks with my firm to be transferred to their NY office and it is looking promising. Good stuff. However, I have just been offered a role by a different firm at their Singapore office. They've indicated they're happy for me to stay there for 2-3 years and then to transfer me to one of their US offices, assuming in good standing, etc.

It doesn't sound like a bad deal to me: 2 years in a new location and then to transfer (or perhaps lateral) to the US afterwards, clock in a year or two more there and then move inhouse/into government. This is also an attractive move for me, as I've always been interested in living in Asia (some of my grandparents are from the region and I loved my short visits to there). However, it's one thing to have a nice plan, and another to actually see it come to fruition.

I know next to nothing about what it's like working in Singapore and have heard stories about how brutal Asian Work culture is (don't know if this is also applicable to Singapore). Secondly, I don't know if this will be a mark against me when I want to move to inhouse or to the government, but I'm worried my lack of substantive US experience might be held against me. Also, as to joining the firm's US office, the firm has indeed indicated they're happy for me to transferred over after 2-3 years, but who knows if they'll actually remain true to their word, especially if I, for whatever reason, perform below expectations. And these are just the worries I have that I know of, maybe there are more hidden problems.

Does anyone have any input?

[Anonymous User]

It is not ideal. You are already mid-level and by the time you return to the US you would be a senior associate who's professional relationship capital is entirely overseas.

I also presume (might be wrong) you are probably doing high-yield work in London and the role in Singapore is high-yield as well? An educated guess given that Singapore's equity market is a lot smaller than HK etc. and given that they recruited you from London so they probably wanted a HY expert. Assuming above being the case your experience is not fully transferable back in the US. Not sure if the SEC will be looking for people with overseas HY experience given that it is not an area of focus. If you can pick up some future HFCAA expertise by doing more China work that might make you an attractive candidate to the SEC given how novel / dynamic things are happening in the area - but those projects are likely routing thru HK / Shanghai / Beijing and not Singapore. Other U.S. gov departments are even less likely to ask for someone with overseas corporate experience.

Moreover, most corporate in-house positions attractive enough to big law associates are likely with multinational corporations. Goldman Sachs / Apple have legal teams in Europe / Asia to deal with local issues. Your profile makes you highly competitive for these offices but not their U.S. offices because corporates likely expect a very different set of experiences for their U.S. counsels.

If you want to build a legal career in the U.S. long term, you can spend a couple years abroad as a junior or mid-level but it is definitely not ideal if you have no U.S. side track record at all by the time you become a senior associate unless you are willing to risk significant class year cuts. Not saying it won't work out, but the risk is material.

[ConfusedNYer]

FWIW I know a few lawyers who have spent time in Asia (primarily HK and Singapore) and while I am sure it varies office to office and my information is a little out of date, I've only heard horror stories about working in a firm as a lawyer in Singapore. Just absolutely brutal hours.

[Sackboy]

FWIW I know a few lawyers who have spent time in Asia (primarily HK and Singapore) and while I am sure it varies office to office and my information is a little out of date, I've only heard horror stories about working in a firm as a lawyer in Singapore. Just absolutely brutal hours.

Yep, this is what I hear from any int'l office of a U.S. firm. Brutal hours in HK, Singapore, and London.

[Sad248]

FWIW I know a few lawyers who have spent time in Asia (primarily HK and Singapore) and while I am sure it varies office to office and my information is a little out of date, I've only heard horror stories about working in a firm as a lawyer in Singapore. Just absolutely brutal hours.

Yep, this is what I hear from any int'l office of a U.S. firm. Brutal hours in HK, Singapore, and London.

Can also back this up from what I hear from my acquaintances. On the flip side, for UK firms: good hours in London. Still terrible in the Asian offices. Also heard stories about associates getting yelled at in the Asian satellite offices, so it's not just long work hours, it's also verbal abuse.

[Anonymous User]

Worked in HK for 4 years, now back in the US. CM in HK can be bad (in terms of hours) but other groups can be fine. Just like here in the US, its good to be aware of the general reputation of the city but Id try to talk to as many people as possible in the group/office you will be joining since hours/work culture is going to vary by the office/group/partner(s).

Just like another poster mentioned above, Id be more worried about falling behind/not developing skills you would need to do well here in the US. I had no trouble lateraling back here (despite what TLS posts on this topic tend to say, which I think is just old info) but I definitely feel like I am behind my peers. just my two cents.

[mr_toad]

I started in SG at a US satellite. Feel free to Pm me. For what it’s worth everything others have posted comports more or less with my experiences and directly related experiences of colleagues.

[Anonymous User]

I hear they beat people with batons in Singapore for breathing the wrong way.

[Anonymous User]

Could anyone share their insight on UK/US firms in Hong Kong with good work environment (at least compared to the regional average)?

[Anonymous User]

Could anyone share their insight on UK/US firms in Hong Kong with good work environment (at least compared to the regional average)?

litigation/white collar/fund formation tends to be more humane

[Anonymous User]

Could anyone share their insight on UK/US firms in Hong Kong with good work environment (at least compared to the regional average)?

litigation/white collar/fund formation tends to be more humane

Is there a way to do white collar or litigation in foreign offices as a US associate? I always thought only Capital Markets and arbitration lawyers could work overseas reliably.

[Wanderingdrock]

Could anyone share their insight on UK/US firms in Hong Kong with good work environment (at least compared to the regional average)?

litigation/white collar/fund formation tends to be more humane

Is there a way to do white collar or litigation in foreign offices as a US associate? I always thought only Capital Markets and arbitration lawyers could work overseas reliably.

Investigations practices often lean heavily on U.S. associates in non-U.S. offices.

[LBJ's Hair]

my 2 cents: (a) it's probably a sub-optimal career move, for the reasons others have already explained, but (b) you have a what, 30/40 year career ahead of you? If you've always wanted to live in Asia for a year or two, this is probably the best way to do it - sounds like you're young, single etc. this stuff gets harder when you're married.

I, personally, care a lot about (a) and very little about (b) - never had any interest in living overseas. but doesn't mean I'm "right" - those are just my preferences.

for you, might be an incredibly cool experience you'll look back on fondly decades later. my grandparents still talk about the 4 years or w/e they spent in Tokyo in the 60s.

[Anonymous User]

Could anyone share their insight on UK/US firms in Hong Kong with good work environment (at least compared to the regional average)?

litigation/white collar/fund formation tends to be more humane

Is there a way to do white collar or litigation in foreign offices as a US associate? I always thought only Capital Markets and arbitration lawyers could work overseas reliably.

Kobe & Kim actually does substantive litigation work from their Asian offices (i.e. drafting / trial strategy and not just doc review / investigation). However, from what I have heard, this is very rare among international firms (if you were to go into QE / KE's lit team in HK or SG, chances are you will end up doing local language doc review / interviews for 10+ years, any substantive drafting / trial work will be shippped to an U.S. office and your partnership prospects depend entirely on client relationships and not lawyering skills)

[Anonymous User]

Could anyone share their insight on UK/US firms in Hong Kong with good work environment (at least compared to the regional average)?

litigation/white collar/fund formation tends to be more humane

Is there a way to do white collar or litigation in foreign offices as a US associate? I always thought only Capital Markets and arbitration lawyers could work overseas reliably.

Investigations practices often lean heavily on U.S. associates in non-U.S. offices.

Do these generally get staffed by actually joining satellite offices, or is it more that you join a national office, but then get shipped out for months on end? I'd assume the latter is more prevalent, but I have no actual idea.

[Wanderingdrock]

Could anyone share their insight on UK/US firms in Hong Kong with good work environment (at least compared to the regional average)?

litigation/white collar/fund formation tends to be more humane

Is there a way to do white collar or litigation in foreign offices as a US associate? I always thought only Capital Markets and arbitration lawyers could work overseas reliably.

Investigations practices often lean heavily on U.S. associates in non-U.S. offices.

Do these generally get staffed by actually joining satellite offices, or is it more that you join a national office, but then get shipped out for months on end? I'd assume the latter is more prevalent, but I have no actual idea.

It can be both. I have been "shipped out for months" and have colleagues who have as well, but in certain markets it makes more sense to have locals working. In Europe all the clients and their employees speak English and the local offices are largely staffed by attorneys barred locally, so for a U.S. investigation you'll probably staff U.S.-based folks simply because the local offices aren't geared towards that and there's no language barrier. But in China, where foreign firms aren't allowed to practice local law, everybody working in a biglaw office is either a local "advisor" or some kind of foreign-barred attorney (U.S., HK, UK, etc.). Plus, not a lot of U.S. associates speak Chinese and the English mastery level at the clients' China entities (or among Chinese clients) can be a mixed bag. So, investigations in China can rely on U.S.-barred folks based in those offices.