Am I Just a Terrible Associate? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I’ve been at a few firms. I’ve always received average to great reviews (never really negative reviews). My hours have always been abysmal though. I got my bonus once in 5+ years. And in some years, I was a few hundred hours off.

Some people say I should feel lucky to be in this predicament, but I have constant anxiety because I’m not as busy as I think I’m supposed to be…

Anyone else in the same position? For what it’s worth, I don’t think the other associates in my group are hitting their hours either.

[jimmythecatdied6]

If anything, I would think you're more confident in your abilities because ... your hours suck, yet they havent fired you. Why would you infer the opposite?

[hdr]

Some groups just aren't that busy. The fact that you've lasted for a while means you've done biglaw the right way (billing 1700 with no bonus is much better than billing 2400 with a lockstep bonus).

[veers]

The relevant question is how busy the other associates in your group are. If everyone is slow, that's on the firm. If the others are busy and you are slow, that means you are likely subpar.

[Anonymous User]

The relevant question is how busy the other associates in your group are. If everyone is slow, that's on the firm. If the others are busy and you are slow, that means you are likely subpar.

Unfortunately I don’t know exactly how slow some people are. I just know that three people missed hours last year, and by a large margin.

[papermateflair]

If your firm has an hours minimum for bonuses that's different than the "in good standing" requirement, you can easily be doing fine and great and just never bonus eligible and that's not a problem unless you want to bill more and get a bonus. Not getting a bonus doesn't mean you're bad at your job. But it can be a sign that your practice isn't in demand OR, is in demand in a way that allows you to work less, which is a pretty good place to be in!

Also, if you're a 6th year, you should be at a point where you have relationships with partners in your group where you can ask about hours and career progression. If you're getting good reviews but not hitting hours and no one at your firm cares right now, you have to decide if YOU care - are you happy to just not hit targets until you get pushed out? Do you want to get promoted someday and need to have a business case for that? Are you looking to lateral one more time, and then make a push for partnership? Or are you thinking about leaving big law behind?

I do think a conversation with a mentor at your firm would be helpful. Every practice group has its own dynamic, and it's hard for anyone from the outside to guess what's going on. If you don't know how busy your group is, surely you have a mentor or someone you can ask about hours and what their expectations are long term - are they comfortable with you coming in below target because the practice is cyclical or niche?

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

OP, please provide rough estimates of hours totals for each year, thank.

[Anonymous User]

I’ve been at a few firms. I’ve always received average to great reviews (never really negative reviews). My hours have always been abysmal though. I got my bonus once in 5+ years. And in some years, I was a few hundred hours off.

Some people say I should feel lucky to be in this predicament, but I have constant anxiety because I’m not as busy as I think I’m supposed to be…

Anyone else in the same position? For what it’s worth, I don’t think the other associates in my group are hitting their hours either.

Seems like you’re in a perfect spot to start considering nice in-house exits? Have you thought about going down that road?

[Anonymous User]

OP, please provide rough estimates of hours totals for each year, thank.

I can’t remember all but this is what I remember:

2017 - 1500 (no bonus)
2018 - 1500 (no bonus)
2019 - 1750 (no bonus)
2020 - 2350 (bonus)
2021 - 1650 (no bonus)

I lateraled a couple of times, so that’s why some years are abnormally low.

[Anonymous User]

OP, please provide rough estimates of hours totals for each year, thank.

I can’t remember all but this is what I remember:

2017 - 1500 (no bonus)
2018 - 1500 (no bonus)
2019 - 1750 (no bonus)
2020 - 2350 (bonus)
2021 - 1650 (no bonus)

I lateraled a couple of times, so that’s why some years are abnormally low.

What's your practice area?

[Anonymous User]

OP, please provide rough estimates of hours totals for each year, thank.

I can’t remember all but this is what I remember:

2017 - 1500 (no bonus)
2018 - 1500 (no bonus)
2019 - 1750 (no bonus)
2020 - 2350 (bonus)
2021 - 1650 (no bonus)

I lateraled a couple of times, so that’s why some years are abnormally low.

Dude this is the dream.

[Anonymous User]

OP, please provide rough estimates of hours totals for each year, thank.

I can’t remember all but this is what I remember:

2017 - 1500 (no bonus)
2018 - 1500 (no bonus)
2019 - 1750 (no bonus)
2020 - 2350 (bonus)
2021 - 1650 (no bonus)

I lateraled a couple of times, so that’s why some years are abnormally low.

What's your practice area?

ECB

[Lacepiece23]

OP, please provide rough estimates of hours totals for each year, thank.

I can’t remember all but this is what I remember:

2017 - 1500 (no bonus)
2018 - 1500 (no bonus)
2019 - 1750 (no bonus)
2020 - 2350 (bonus)
2021 - 1650 (no bonus)

I lateraled a couple of times, so that’s why some years are abnormally low.

What's your practice area?

ECB

I've always heard that ECB is a low-hours practice area at a lot of firms.

[Anonymous User]

OP, please provide rough estimates of hours totals for each year, thank.

I can’t remember all but this is what I remember:

2017 - 1500 (no bonus)
2018 - 1500 (no bonus)
2019 - 1750 (no bonus)
2020 - 2350 (bonus)
2021 - 1650 (no bonus)

I lateraled a couple of times, so that’s why some years are abnormally low.

What's your practice area?

ECB

I've always heard that ECB is a low-hours practice area at a lot of firms.

Your mileage may vary. The exec comp side certainly isn’t a lifestyle practice in my experience.

[Anonymous User]

ECB

I've always heard that ECB is a low-hours practice area at a lot of firms.

Your mileage may vary. The exec comp side certainly isn’t a lifestyle practice in my experience.

This is true at a PE sweatshop. If you're at a place like Morgan Lewis where there are opportunities to do qualified plan work, Groom, or another firm that has a practice that is more than just M&A support, you can have pretty good hours. I'm in such a setup, and I hit between 1700-1900 hours per year and have been reassured repeatedly by the heads of the group that I'll have no problem getting equity. As you suggest, your mileage can vary a lot. I started my career at one of the PE sweatshops where it wasn't abnormal to bill 2400+. Not worth it.

[Anonymous User]

I came due to the title, then saw the description, the hours, and the practice area. Is this humble brag?

/thread

[Anonymous User]

OP, please provide rough estimates of hours totals for each year, thank.

I can’t remember all but this is what I remember:

2017 - 1500 (no bonus)
2018 - 1500 (no bonus)
2019 - 1750 (no bonus)
2020 - 2350 (bonus)
2021 - 1650 (no bonus)

I lateraled a couple of times, so that’s why some years are abnormally low.

Dude this is the dream.

Straight up. But I get it though. I'm in a somewhat similar situation (averaging about 1700 hours) and it took me some time to let go and accept this was it. You were told for three years straight big law was hell, you'd do 60-80 hours on weekly basis and that you had to smile while doing it. The question wasn't if you were going to burn out, the question was when.

And then you come in and you basically work a job that requires 30-40 hours a week on average with a few all-nighters here or there, but that is balances by days without any work. You want to believe it, but you know better. I remember my first 9 months and I just couldn't relax. Because the hell would be unleashed any time. It just never came.

It took my until my third year until I was able to accept that this is it, at least for now. I actually spoke to a senior associate recently, who told me he still feels bad watching Netflix during the day in a slow period, because he feels he should be working. OP, the other commenters are right, this is the dream (assuming you don't want to be partner). You've been at this for over 5 years now, so it's safe to say this is it for you and you can coast like this for a few more years, making absolute bank at a sub 40 hour a week job. Maybe talk to a therapist or something or get a few hobbies or something? For me the latter helped. I was itching to get away from work to do other stuff, so I never even thought at like 2pm and I was having fun, if I should be bad about working or not.

[Anonymous User]

ECB

I've always heard that ECB is a low-hours practice area at a lot of firms.

Your mileage may vary. The exec comp side certainly isn’t a lifestyle practice in my experience.

This is true at a PE sweatshop. If you're at a place like Morgan Lewis where there are opportunities to do qualified plan work, Groom, or another firm that has a practice that is more than just M&A support, you can have pretty good hours. I'm in such a setup, and I hit between 1700-1900 hours per year and have been reassured repeatedly by the heads of the group that I'll have no problem getting equity. As you suggest, your mileage can vary a lot. I started my career at one of the PE sweatshops where it wasn't abnormal to bill 2400+. Not worth it.

I’m doing mostly deal support, which is why I think I am anxious about the hours (which probably should be higher). Also, my work is by no means steady. I bill 10 hours some weeks, 50 hours others. Just rarely adds up to more than like 140+ hours a month.

To the posters talking about in-house, I’ve had a talk with one of the partners I work with and he just says “there really aren’t in-house opportunities for attorneys like us.” So I’m just not sure where and how to exit if/when I’m told I don’t have a future here. I could lateral once more probably, but not sure what to do after.

[Anonymous User]

3-400 hours more for what is around 50% of your salary as a 5th year at minimum hour firm sounds a little bit frustrating, though progressive taxes make this much better of a deal. If you pull this off at a no-minimum firm, I am so jealous

[Anonymous User]

3-400 hours more for what is around 50% of your salary as a 5th year at minimum hour firm sounds a little bit frustrating, though progressive taxes make this much better of a deal. If you pull this off at a no-minimum firm, I am so jealous

Current base salary for 5th year is 345k, bonus 90k. That's not 50%, it's closer to 25%. Plus marginal tax rate is 32%, and at that point you're probably out of deductions.

[Anonymous User]

ECB

I've always heard that ECB is a low-hours practice area at a lot of firms.

Your mileage may vary. The exec comp side certainly isn’t a lifestyle practice in my experience.

This is true at a PE sweatshop. If you're at a place like Morgan Lewis where there are opportunities to do qualified plan work, Groom, or another firm that has a practice that is more than just M&A support, you can have pretty good hours. I'm in such a setup, and I hit between 1700-1900 hours per year and have been reassured repeatedly by the heads of the group that I'll have no problem getting equity. As you suggest, your mileage can vary a lot. I started my career at one of the PE sweatshops where it wasn't abnormal to bill 2400+. Not worth it.

I’m doing mostly deal support, which is why I think I am anxious about the hours (which probably should be higher). Also, my work is by no means steady. I bill 10 hours some weeks, 50 hours others. Just rarely adds up to more than like 140+ hours a month.

To the posters talking about in-house, I’ve had a talk with one of the partners I work with and he just says “there really aren’t in-house opportunities for attorneys like us.” So I’m just not sure where and how to exit if/when I’m told I don’t have a future here. I could lateral once more probably, but not sure what to do after.

As an ECB associate who recently went in-house in the field, this is overblown. I didn’t have to look particularly hard, had options, and had more options come up after I accepted.

[Anonymous User]

3-400 hours more for what is around 50% of your salary as a 5th year at minimum hour firm sounds a little bit frustrating, though progressive taxes make this much better of a deal. If you pull this off at a no-minimum firm, I am so jealous

Want to note that 2021 is annualized, so in reality, I could’ve been busier. In the moment it was great to work so few hours, but the concern is always in the back of my mind.

[Anonymous User]

Current base salary for 5th year is 345k, bonus 90k. That's not 50%, it's closer to 25%. Plus marginal tax rate is 32%, and at that point you're probably out of deductions.

Including special bonuses totaled $160k and base was $305k last year. I suppose an even smaller subset of firms tied special bonuses to hours last year though. Taxes are the reason I think many associates would still prefer the 1600 hour track.

[papermateflair]

Doing deal support in EBEC but not working really awful hours is the best of both worlds. I wouldn't change a thing - you may not make partner any time soon, but presumably your firm has a counsel or of counsel role you can slot into as you get more senior. There's as much job security in EBEC as you can find in big law, and there are always in house positions. But if you are really nervous and want to find a position somewhere that you'll be busier, there are plenty of places looking for mid-level to senior associates who do EBEC work who would be happy to just absolutely destroy any work life balance you thought you had.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

OP, please provide rough estimates of hours totals for each year, thank.

I can’t remember all but this is what I remember:

2017 - 1500 (no bonus)
2018 - 1500 (no bonus)
2019 - 1750 (no bonus)
2020 - 2350 (bonus)
2021 - 1650 (no bonus)

I lateraled a couple of times, so that’s why some years are abnormally low.

I'm glad I asked, bud.

As others have said, you've got a good distribution here. Ideally you either hit 2001 hours (or whatever is barely over your firm's minimum) or you're below 1600 hours. In certain years 1600 is not even abnormally low in certain specialist groups (can't speak specifically to ECB).

But just a philosophical point: I can't speak to whether you are a good associate or not, but it bears repeating that in general the only reward for good work is getting to do everyone else's. The top 5% might make partner and the bottom 5% might get fired, but the middle 90% is largely proceeding on the same path and it's just a matter of who's getting bonus year to year. I will pass no judgment on your pride or your expectations of yourself, but just from a survival perspective, mediocrity really is king. Not so shitty that you piss people off, but enough so that people just passively don't get interested in working with you, EXCEPT for one or two partners who you like/are the least stressful that you'll do good work and be responsive for. Those partners will feed you enough hours to stay on the bell curve enough to be off management's radar and will mildly go to bat for you (as in, you're not getting their endorsement but they will find you useful enough to object to your firing).

OP, you don't need this advice--as you have apparently accidentally approximated this strategy for years--but hopefully it saves one of you youngins some grief.