Vacation - what's your expectation vs reality in BigLaw Forum

[Anonymous User]

6th year big-law associate here, and even to this day still struggle with boundaries while on vacation (just came back and worked half the time). Curious what other people think they should be like vs what their's actually is like while traveling.

I think there is a difference between a working trip (like going to FL for the week and working normal hours) and actually going away (like to Europe) and completely disconnecting. but have you done the latter and how's that been received?

[Anonymous User]

I’m a mid-senior, and I have taken an off the grid trip every year. Those trips have never been remotely disrupted. Most importantly, I’m very lucky to work with great people who respect the trip. But secondly, I make a point of going off the grid (or making it appear I’ll be more off the grid than I am). I tell people I’ll be checking emails, but I make no guarantees it’ll happen daily. If people have a problem with it, I’m lucky to have a great base set of people I work with.

[trebekismyhero]

TBF I left big law a few years ago so maybe with all the craziness of the past couple years it is different, but 100%, I always did Europe or Asia trips for two weeks because you pretty much have to be disconnected a bit. And rarely was I bothered vs. majority of my domestic trips were ruined. So definitely take an international vacation or go to the mountains where you won't get service.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a mid-senior, and I have taken an off the grid trip every year. Those trips have never been remotely disrupted. Most importantly, I’m very lucky to work with great people who respect the trip. But secondly, I make a point of going off the grid (or making it appear I’ll be more off the grid than I am). I tell people I’ll be checking emails, but I make no guarantees it’ll happen daily. If people have a problem with it, I’m lucky to have a great base set of people I work with.

Could you elaborate on the bolded? That to me by definition means you are not "off the grid."

[BrowsingTLS]

Expectation: You're offline, doing whatever you want during your vacation.

Reality: Some people live that expectation. Others don't. The ones who don't work to some degree, for instance because they feel pressure to work, because they want to make partner and believe in the ridiculous idea that taking vacation eliminates chances of making partner, or because they don't want to leave their colleagues hanging. I'm junior and when I take vacation, I have days where I'm off and days where I work some number of hours to not leave colleagues hanging.

[Anonymous User]

5th year PE/M&A associate. I've never had an issue with vacation whether domestic or abroad. Sure i've answered emails that needed answering or maybe done an hour of work in the morning when a random client or portco reached out for something one-off that would take more time and effort to loop in someone else than it would to just do myself. But I have never like turned a purchase agreement or signed a deal on vacation.

Sounds like either the people you work with don't respect you and have your back or you are not planning with them well enough prior to your vacation.

[Anonymous User]

I don’t understand people who routinely have vacations ruined. Sure, maybe once or twice something blows up and you really are crucial for it. But I communicate clearly with my teams about my availability.

A few months in advance, I send a heads up for my 2 weeks off. I do the same about a week in advance, and for active matters I affirmatively check with team members (“Hey, FYI I’m about to be out for 2 weeks, just making sure XYZ matter is set? I already talked to ABC and I know (thing) is covered.”) Then I just… go. I don’t bring my laptop. I leave my work cellphone in the hotel/Airbnb, and I check it maybe every other night before bed. I rarely send any reply emails, but I try to at least get an idea of where things are for 10 minutes. If someone asked me to do something, they are going to get my OOO bounce back email and then maybe I’ll respond to them a couple days later (or maybe I just won’t).

As for the domestic vs Europe/mountains thing, I just don’t tell people where I’m going. The people I am actually close to/friends with, of course I tell them, but in my FYI emails, I don’t identify it, I don’t say I will be checking email, I don’t say responses might be delayed. I say “I will be out of office from X to Y, I will work to ensure coverage on my matters during that time. I will return on Z.” My vacation time is the same to me whether I’m going to Miami or San Diego or Greece or hiking Everest.

I’m a midlevel and I’ve gotten good reviews, and I’m at a firm with a sweatshop reputation. And yet people still respect these boundaries when I put them up. I just refuse to be a doormat on vacation. The job is so demanding the other 48 weeks a year or whatever.

[Anonymous User]

6th year big-law associate here, and even to this day still struggle with boundaries while on vacation (just came back and worked half the time). Curious what other people think they should be like vs what their's actually is like while traveling.

I think there is a difference between a working trip (like going to FL for the week and working normal hours) and actually going away (like to Europe) and completely disconnecting. but have you done the latter and how's that been received?

So confused by this...I was always mandatorily restaffed and not allowed to work while on vacation. Seems kind of nutty that given how terrible the job is already that you would even be willing to contemplate working while on vacation.

I mean responding to a couple of emails is one thing, but actually revising document or the like seems completely out of left field.

[Anonymous User]

Sure i've answered emails that needed answering or maybe done an hour of work in the morning when a random client or portco reached out for something one-off that would take more time and effort to loop in someone else than it would to just do myself. But I have never like turned a purchase agreement or signed a deal on vacation.

This is still the issue for me. Most vacations I have 3-4 of these types of tasks that take 1-3 hours come up a week. Sometimes longer, which makes getting a real vacation much tougher.

It was pretty easy to find coverage as a 1-3rd year but as a 5th/6th year, it becomes much tougher.

[EliteFlyer]

I don’t understand people who routinely have vacations ruined. Sure, maybe once or twice something blows up and you really are crucial for it. But I communicate clearly with my teams about my availability.

A few months in advance, I send a heads up for my 2 weeks off. I do the same about a week in advance, and for active matters I affirmatively check with team members (“Hey, FYI I’m about to be out for 2 weeks, just making sure XYZ matter is set? I already talked to ABC and I know (thing) is covered.”) Then I just… go. I don’t bring my laptop. I leave my work cellphone in the hotel/Airbnb, and I check it maybe every other night before bed. I rarely send any reply emails, but I try to at least get an idea of where things are for 10 minutes. If someone asked me to do something, they are going to get my OOO bounce back email and then maybe I’ll respond to them a couple days later (or maybe I just won’t).

As for the domestic vs Europe/mountains thing, I just don’t tell people where I’m going. The people I am actually close to/friends with, of course I tell them, but in my FYI emails, I don’t identify it, I don’t say I will be checking email, I don’t say responses might be delayed. I say “I will be out of office from X to Y, I will work to ensure coverage on my matters during that time. I will return on Z.” My vacation time is the same to me whether I’m going to Miami or San Diego or Greece or hiking Everest.

I’m a midlevel and I’ve gotten good reviews, and I’m at a firm with a sweatshop reputation. And yet people still respect these boundaries when I put them up. I just refuse to be a doormat on vacation. The job is so demanding the other 48 weeks a year or whatever.

I 100% agree with this. It's up to you as a professional to set other people's expectations for your availability and that has nothing to do with where you are "going" on vacation (or whether you're going anywhere at all). Get into the habit of going off the grid and learn it early on in your career!

[Anonymous User]

I’m a mid-senior, and I have taken an off the grid trip every year. Those trips have never been remotely disrupted. Most importantly, I’m very lucky to work with great people who respect the trip. But secondly, I make a point of going off the grid (or making it appear I’ll be more off the grid than I am). I tell people I’ll be checking emails, but I make no guarantees it’ll happen daily. If people have a problem with it, I’m lucky to have a great base set of people I work with.

Could you elaborate on the bolded? That to me by definition means you are not "off the grid."

I mean I’ll check them when I get the chance — eg, I’m going on a safari in Africa and don’t expect to have reception , but I’ll check emails when I get back to the capital city with wifi etc.

[Anonymous User]

I did maybe 10 hours of work over vacation over 5 years, and probably 5 of those hours were voluntary. I just played dumb over vacation. Most of my biglaw stint the partners were very gracious and didn’t even tell me to look for coverage, they just picked up the slack for me. Started working with some less gracious people who made you overdo it on coverage, which was a factor in leaving.

[Anonymous User]

I was able to take vacation but I found the process really annoying. I had to notify a bunch of partners and find people to cover for me.

[Anonymous User]

I was able to take vacation but I found the process really annoying. I had to notify a bunch of partners and find people to cover for me.

Seems like an odd concept. Let's say 2 months beforehand you plan and get approved for a 2 week vacation. Doesn't that then factor into what work you accept for the period prior to the vacation, including letting the partners know when you will be out? Feels like it is then their problem to staff appropriately (or just do the work themselves), not yours.

[MarcusH]

I was able to take vacation but I found the process really annoying. I had to notify a bunch of partners and find people to cover for me.

Seems like an odd concept. Let's say 2 months beforehand you plan and get approved for a 2 week vacation. Doesn't that then factor into what work you accept for the period prior to the vacation, including letting the partners know when you will be out? Feels like it is then their problem to staff appropriately (or just do the work themselves), not yours.

Notifying partners and finding coverage (if you even can find coverage) is standard operating procedure at a large number of firms, be wary of moving if it's not at yours (and be thankful).

[Anonymous User]

I was able to take vacation but I found the process really annoying. I had to notify a bunch of partners and find people to cover for me.

Seems like an odd concept. Let's say 2 months beforehand you plan and get approved for a 2 week vacation. Doesn't that then factor into what work you accept for the period prior to the vacation, including letting the partners know when you will be out? Feels like it is then their problem to staff appropriately (or just do the work themselves), not yours.

Notifying partners and finding coverage (if you even can find coverage) is standard operating procedure at a large number of firms, be wary of moving if it's not at yours (and be thankful).

It is standard OP but it really shouldn't be. It makes it really hard to actually take vacation. I'm not sure if it's designed to be that way, or if it's just incompetence / mismanagement. The ideal situation you'd submit to an HR system and then partners get a notification and farm work out to associates. So long as you submit a monthly in advance you shouldn't need to "clear" it with anyone.

[Anonymous User]

My firm doesn’t have an SOP. I just tell (not ask) people that I’m gonna be gone for 2 weeks, about two months out similar to other posters in here.

[Anonymous User]

I was able to take vacation but I found the process really annoying. I had to notify a bunch of partners and find people to cover for me.

Seems like an odd concept. Let's say 2 months beforehand you plan and get approved for a 2 week vacation. Doesn't that then factor into what work you accept for the period prior to the vacation, including letting the partners know when you will be out? Feels like it is then their problem to staff appropriately (or just do the work themselves), not yours.

Notifying partners and finding coverage (if you even can find coverage) is standard operating procedure at a large number of firms, be wary of moving if it's not at yours (and be thankful).

Oh really? Or what? What exactly are they going to do if you don't find coverage and go on vacation anyway? Fire you on the spot?

If you gave a proper heads up months before, and have sufficient vacation days, finding coverage is the problem of the owners, not the employees.

Seems to me like this is the same neurosis that leads to V10 associates billing 2500 hours ("never turn down work or they may fire you") or staying til 8pm every night ("never looks good to leave before the partner").

Get a grip. Grow a spine. You are paid to bill 2k hours and to take your vacations, not to bill 2500 hours, take no vacations and be miserable. If the current group of jokers don't accept that, lateral somewhere else.

[Anonymous User]

I was able to take vacation but I found the process really annoying. I had to notify a bunch of partners and find people to cover for me.

Seems like an odd concept. Let's say 2 months beforehand you plan and get approved for a 2 week vacation. Doesn't that then factor into what work you accept for the period prior to the vacation, including letting the partners know when you will be out? Feels like it is then their problem to staff appropriately (or just do the work themselves), not yours.

Notifying partners and finding coverage (if you even can find coverage) is standard operating procedure at a large number of firms, be wary of moving if it's not at yours (and be thankful).

Oh really? Or what? What exactly are they going to do if you don't find coverage and go on vacation anyway? Fire you on the spot?

If you gave a proper heads up months before, and have sufficient vacation days, finding coverage is the problem of the owners, not the employees.

Seems to me like this is the same neurosis that leads to V10 associates billing 2500 hours ("never turn down work or they may fire you") or staying til 8pm every night ("never looks good to leave before the partner").

Get a grip. Grow a spine. You are paid to bill 2k hours and to take your vacations, not to bill 2500 hours, take no vacations and be miserable. If the current group of jokers don't accept that, lateral somewhere else.

What a weird, hostile comment!

If you are expressly told "let all partners you're working with know, and make sure you find coverage" but you disappear, leaving the team in the lurch... seems like the results are far more unpleasant than simply sending a few emails and arranging for mutual coverage with another associate. I did take the vacation so the comp to billing 2500 is inaccurate. I'm just complaining that taking vacation is a pain. Which is the point of this thread.

Lateraling is always an option. But I don't know which firms are actually better, and it's one factor among many, and I'm not sure jumping around for what amounts to a minor annoyance is worth it, and I've been in the job less than a year, etc etc etc

[Anonymous User]

I was able to take vacation but I found the process really annoying. I had to notify a bunch of partners and find people to cover for me.

Seems like an odd concept. Let's say 2 months beforehand you plan and get approved for a 2 week vacation. Doesn't that then factor into what work you accept for the period prior to the vacation, including letting the partners know when you will be out? Feels like it is then their problem to staff appropriately (or just do the work themselves), not yours.

Notifying partners and finding coverage (if you even can find coverage) is standard operating procedure at a large number of firms, be wary of moving if it's not at yours (and be thankful).

Oh really? Or what? What exactly are they going to do if you don't find coverage and go on vacation anyway? Fire you on the spot?

If you gave a proper heads up months before, and have sufficient vacation days, finding coverage is the problem of the owners, not the employees.

Seems to me like this is the same neurosis that leads to V10 associates billing 2500 hours ("never turn down work or they may fire you") or staying til 8pm every night ("never looks good to leave before the partner").

Get a grip. Grow a spine. You are paid to bill 2k hours and to take your vacations, not to bill 2500 hours, take no vacations and be miserable. If the current group of jokers don't accept that, lateral somewhere else.

What a weird, hostile comment!

If you are expressly told "let all partners you're working with know, and make sure you find coverage" but you disappear, leaving the team in the lurch... seems like the results are far more unpleasant than simply sending a few emails and arranging for mutual coverage with another associate. I did take the vacation so the comp to billing 2500 is inaccurate. I'm just complaining that taking vacation is a pain. Which is the point of this thread.

Lateraling is always an option. But I don't know which firms are actually better, and it's one factor among many, and I'm not sure jumping around for what amounts to a minor annoyance is worth it, and I've been in the job less than a year, etc etc etc

Don't be naive here. It's not the employees responsibility to find coverage. Full stop. Ever. This is just implicit pressure by the partners you work with to never take a vacation. Stand up for yourself.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a mid-senior, and I have taken an off the grid trip every year. Those trips have never been remotely disrupted. Most importantly, I’m very lucky to work with great people who respect the trip. But secondly, I make a point of going off the grid (or making it appear I’ll be more off the grid than I am). I tell people I’ll be checking emails, but I make no guarantees it’ll happen daily. If people have a problem with it, I’m lucky to have a great base set of people I work with.

When I first started in BigLaw, I was surprised by the number of people who spent their vacations backpacking in Argentina or kayaking in Alaska as opposed to lounging at the Four Seasons in Cabo. Then I realized that it was (at least partially) because the off-the-grid stuff gives you a built-in excuse to be offline but everyone knows that the Four Seasons has WIFI.

That said, I have taken several short beach/resort-type vacations as a junior and it has never been a problem. I usually end up checking my emails in the morning and working for an hour or so, but I don't feel that it prevents me from enjoying my vacation.

[Anonymous User]

I was able to take vacation but I found the process really annoying. I had to notify a bunch of partners and find people to cover for me.

Seems like an odd concept. Let's say 2 months beforehand you plan and get approved for a 2 week vacation. Doesn't that then factor into what work you accept for the period prior to the vacation, including letting the partners know when you will be out? Feels like it is then their problem to staff appropriately (or just do the work themselves), not yours.

Notifying partners and finding coverage (if you even can find coverage) is standard operating procedure at a large number of firms, be wary of moving if it's not at yours (and be thankful).

Oh really? Or what? What exactly are they going to do if you don't find coverage and go on vacation anyway? Fire you on the spot?

If you gave a proper heads up months before, and have sufficient vacation days, finding coverage is the problem of the owners, not the employees.

Seems to me like this is the same neurosis that leads to V10 associates billing 2500 hours ("never turn down work or they may fire you") or staying til 8pm every night ("never looks good to leave before the partner").

Get a grip. Grow a spine. You are paid to bill 2k hours and to take your vacations, not to bill 2500 hours, take no vacations and be miserable. If the current group of jokers don't accept that, lateral somewhere else.

What a weird, hostile comment!

If you are expressly told "let all partners you're working with know, and make sure you find coverage" but you disappear, leaving the team in the lurch... seems like the results are far more unpleasant than simply sending a few emails and arranging for mutual coverage with another associate. I did take the vacation so the comp to billing 2500 is inaccurate. I'm just complaining that taking vacation is a pain. Which is the point of this thread.

Lateraling is always an option. But I don't know which firms are actually better, and it's one factor among many, and I'm not sure jumping around for what amounts to a minor annoyance is worth it, and I've been in the job less than a year, etc etc etc

Don't be naive here. It's not the employees responsibility to find coverage. Full stop. Ever. This is just implicit pressure by the partners you work with to never take a vacation. Stand up for yourself.

It shouldn't be. But it is. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by stand up for yourself. Jerry Maguire is fiction, and anyway he got fired. If you mean that I should still take vacation, I do.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a mid-senior, and I have taken an off the grid trip every year. Those trips have never been remotely disrupted. Most importantly, I’m very lucky to work with great people who respect the trip. But secondly, I make a point of going off the grid (or making it appear I’ll be more off the grid than I am). I tell people I’ll be checking emails, but I make no guarantees it’ll happen daily. If people have a problem with it, I’m lucky to have a great base set of people I work with.

When I first started in BigLaw, I was surprised by the number of people who spent their vacations backpacking in Argentina or kayaking in Alaska as opposed to lounging at the Four Seasons in Cabo. Then I realized that it was (at least partially) because the off-the-grid stuff gives you a built-in excuse to be offline but everyone knows that the Four Seasons has WIFI.

That said, I have taken several short beach/resort-type vacations as a junior and it has never been a problem. I usually end up checking my emails in the morning and working for an hour or so, but I don't feel that it prevents me from enjoying my vacation.

Could be it's that, but I also think that biglaw tends to attract the type of personality that thinks hiking in Alaska is relaxing. Personally I'm happy to go to a resort of even just a stacation

[Anonymous User]

I’m a mid-senior, and I have taken an off the grid trip every year. Those trips have never been remotely disrupted. Most importantly, I’m very lucky to work with great people who respect the trip. But secondly, I make a point of going off the grid (or making it appear I’ll be more off the grid than I am). I tell people I’ll be checking emails, but I make no guarantees it’ll happen daily. If people have a problem with it, I’m lucky to have a great base set of people I work with.

When I first started in BigLaw, I was surprised by the number of people who spent their vacations backpacking in Argentina or kayaking in Alaska as opposed to lounging at the Four Seasons in Cabo. Then I realized that it was (at least partially) because the off-the-grid stuff gives you a built-in excuse to be offline but everyone knows that the Four Seasons has WIFI.

That said, I have taken several short beach/resort-type vacations as a junior and it has never been a problem. I usually end up checking my emails in the morning and working for an hour or so, but I don't feel that it prevents me from enjoying my vacation.

Same experience here, and multiple associate mentors recommended that we vacation in places without cellular/Wi-Fi for that reason. In hindsight, that is such a bizarre way to approach vacations that it should have told me everything I needed to know about biglaw.

[MarcusH]

I was able to take vacation but I found the process really annoying. I had to notify a bunch of partners and find people to cover for me.

Seems like an odd concept. Let's say 2 months beforehand you plan and get approved for a 2 week vacation. Doesn't that then factor into what work you accept for the period prior to the vacation, including letting the partners know when you will be out? Feels like it is then their problem to staff appropriately (or just do the work themselves), not yours.

Notifying partners and finding coverage (if you even can find coverage) is standard operating procedure at a large number of firms, be wary of moving if it's not at yours (and be thankful).

Oh really? Or what? What exactly are they going to do if you don't find coverage and go on vacation anyway? Fire you on the spot?

If you gave a proper heads up months before, and have sufficient vacation days, finding coverage is the problem of the owners, not the employees.

Seems to me like this is the same neurosis that leads to V10 associates billing 2500 hours ("never turn down work or they may fire you") or staying til 8pm every night ("never looks good to leave before the partner").

Get a grip. Grow a spine. You are paid to bill 2k hours and to take your vacations, not to bill 2500 hours, take no vacations and be miserable. If the current group of jokers don't accept that, lateral somewhere else.

What a weird, hostile comment!

If you are expressly told "let all partners you're working with know, and make sure you find coverage" but you disappear, leaving the team in the lurch... seems like the results are far more unpleasant than simply sending a few emails and arranging for mutual coverage with another associate. I did take the vacation so the comp to billing 2500 is inaccurate. I'm just complaining that taking vacation is a pain. Which is the point of this thread.

Lateraling is always an option. But I don't know which firms are actually better, and it's one factor among many, and I'm not sure jumping around for what amounts to a minor annoyance is worth it, and I've been in the job less than a year, etc etc etc

Don't be naive here. It's not the employees responsibility to find coverage. Full stop. Ever. This is just implicit pressure by the partners you work with to never take a vacation. Stand up for yourself.

It shouldn't be. But it is. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by stand up for yourself. Jerry Maguire is fiction, and anyway he got fired. If you mean that I should still take vacation, I do.

I like the Jerry Maguire reference. The unnecessary hostility reminded me a bit of SLC Punk (but less likable). That wild, out of left field reaction is exactly the way many partners would respond but in the reverse. My suspicion is that hostile anon may grow up to be one of those partners, but I hope hostile anon remembers hostile anon's principles and treats the younger generation better. Also, FYI, there're more considerations in lateralling than vacation policy, which you won't have much real visibility into anyways (e.g., have heard DPW has a good one, but DPW also has slim partnership chances, aggressive hours and historically placed a huge emphasis on facetime).