How much does physical attractiveness matter in big law? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Not gonna lie, my summer class at Davis Polk years back was substantially above average attractiveness compared to law school and some other firms I’ve worked at. It was also a cut above the summer classes at S&C, Cravath, and Simpson, at least based on my offer dinners at those firms and the people I knew there, with some notable exceptions. There was obviously a range and would be at any firm, and this didn’t exactly hold true for the junior associates I met, but I was pleasantly surprised by the summer class. Gibson also seems to do above average on this metric.

This is all within the context of law. Naturally other industries like media, marketing, and fashion have much more attractive people on average.

[Anonymous User]

Being an attractive female associate can definitely hurt. Speaking as a former BigLaw associate turned BigLaw legal recruiter, I frequently see female partners/seniors make attractive female associates' lives so miserable that they leave their firms (or the profession entirely)

What is your support for a causal connection here? I find the trope of women being jealous of women over envy of physical appearance to be incredibly overstated and simplistic. The idea that female partners in big law are so consumed by envy of another's beauty is absurd. What leads you to credibly conclude that female big law partners are tyrants to attractive female associates for the reason that they are attractive? Partners with a God complex, female or male, can be nasty to juniors of any sex (despite appearance) and often are.

[Anonymous User]

I think being obese is a bigger negative in biglaw than it is in other industries, even compared to other professional white collar industries. I cannot articulate why exactly, although I think obese people do worse at OCI and get worse job outcomes, then have a more difficult time establishing rapport with partners and senior associates, and also struggle more with the very demanding hours than their more in-shape counterparts. It's also more challenging for obese litigators to carry boxes of exhibits into courthouses on a summer day. I don't think "physical unattractiveness" as a general matter comes with all of these negatives, though certainly some.

(I am saying this all as an obese associate myself)

[Anonymous User]

Not gonna lie, my summer class at Davis Polk years back was substantially above average attractiveness compared to law school and some other firms I’ve worked at. It was also a cut above the summer classes at S&C, Cravath, and Simpson, at least based on my offer dinners at those firms and the people I knew there, with some notable exceptions. There was obviously a range and would be at any firm, and this didn’t exactly hold true for the junior associates I met, but I was pleasantly surprised by the summer class. Gibson also seems to do above average on this metric.

This is all within the context of law. Naturally other industries like media, marketing, and fashion have much more attractive people on average.

The location can also make a difference. With the exception of nyc, the choice of location for most BL attorneys is informed by previous ties to the location (family, birthplace, college, upbringing, etc.)

People in some of the west coast offices are more attractive because they're originally from locales where health consciousness is a way of life from a pretty young age. Also several superficial elements to the culture.

People from the Midwest? The culture is Bob Evans and Culver's. Driving everywhere. A bunch of these people end up in the Chicago market. More average looking people.

I'm generalizing obviously. No shade. I'm from the Midwest and have a lot of love for it.

[Anonymous User]

I think being obese is a bigger negative in biglaw than it is in other industries, even compared to other professional white collar industries. I cannot articulate why exactly, although I think obese people do worse at OCI and get worse job outcomes, then have a more difficult time establishing rapport with partners and senior associates, and also struggle more with the very demanding hours than their more in-shape counterparts. It's also more challenging for obese litigators to carry boxes of exhibits into courthouses on a summer day. I don't think "physical unattractiveness" as a general matter comes with all of these negatives, though certainly some.

(I am saying this all as an obese associate myself)

Agree with the physical demands of the job. Stamina and energy are correlated with physical health. There are and always will be exceptions, but this is largely true.

There are always going to be assholes that make judgments about obese people. I do think that a person's confidence and self-awareness can help overcome those judgments. In my experience, very insecure people who are obese are more likely to be singled out because their insecurity makes interactions uncomfortable. I AM NOT CLAIMING THIS IS UNIQUE TO OBESE INDIVIDUALS. In general, undesirable physical attributes are a hindrance usually to the extent that the owners allow them to be.

[Anonymous User]

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[Anonymous User]

I’ll agree that there’s going to be a stigma against fat people in biglaw, and a greater stigma than agains just ordinary physical unattractiveness. Though again this isn’t remotely unique to biglaw - this is just the modern US. In fact, it’s got to the the point that if I see a markedly fat lawyer (not just your sort of average overweight American) I actually assume they must be *really* good at their job to have overcome the stigma against it, in part because I’m in lit so there’s that public presentation element.

(But I feel obligated to point out that fatness isn’t a measure of health and there are plenty of fat people who are fit/won’t struggle with the physical demands of biglaw, just as there are plenty of thin people who are unfit and will struggle. Plus carrying boxes of exhibits into a courthouse is a really weird example of problems in law, since everyone I know uses rolling boxes or carts.)

[Anonymous User]

(But I feel obligated to point out that fatness isn’t a measure of health and there are plenty of fat people who are fit/won’t struggle with the physical demands of biglaw, just as there are plenty of thin people who are unfit and will struggle. Plus carrying boxes of exhibits into a courthouse is a really weird example of problems in law, since everyone I know uses rolling boxes or carts.)

Absolutely. I wasn't as nuanced in my discussion of obesity and health but I agree.

[Anonymous User]

Jonathan Schiller once made fun of an associate (from another office) for his weight at a firm event. He also criticized people’s fashion choices if they were deemed too plebeian (eg, their socks).

[SGTslaughter]

Also OP this was NOT a stupid question. Just this place is populated with sociopaths. You have to learn how to ignore them and focus on the good information between the assholes.

Less sociopaths, moreso just autists who would rather jerk each other off about Vault rankings or how unprestigious Kirkland is than things that might actually make a difference in your career.

[Anonymous User]

Also OP this was NOT a stupid question. Just this place is populated with sociopaths. You have to learn how to ignore them and focus on the good information between the assholes.

Less sociopaths, moreso just autists who would rather jerk each other off about Vault rankings or how unprestigious Kirkland is than things that might actually make a difference in your career.

why_not_both.gif

[Anonymous User]

(But I feel obligated to point out that fatness isn’t a measure of health and there are plenty of fat people who are fit/won’t struggle with the physical demands of biglaw, just as there are plenty of thin people who are unfit and will struggle. Plus carrying boxes of exhibits into a courthouse is a really weird example of problems in law, since everyone I know uses rolling boxes or carts.)

Absolutely. I wasn't as nuanced in my discussion of obesity and health but I agree.

(And I’ll admit that hauling heavy things to court in the heat is definitely something that I dread.)

[Anonymous User]

Also OP this was NOT a stupid question. Just this place is populated with sociopaths. You have to learn how to ignore them and focus on the good information between the assholes.

Less sociopaths, moreso just autists who would rather jerk each other off about Vault rankings or how unprestigious Kirkland is than things that might actually make a difference in your career.

why_not_both.gif

Correct. The people at my law school had terrible social and emotional skills. but even if they were good at both, they would still have been morally bad people, just more successful and less bitter.

[Anonymous User]

How much do you even communicate with people face to face in big law? Are there ever all team in person meetings?

[Anonymous User]

How much do you even communicate with people face to face in big law? Are there ever all team in person meetings?

Varies a ton by practice and by partner you work for. And Covid has changed things a ton.

On the litigation side, there are occasional face to face meetings throughout a case but if you are going to a deposition or hearing with a partner, or if you're on a trial team, you spend lots and lots of time together.

In the last two years, the occasional meetings I mentioned have been all over Zoom, and the depositions mostly have been too (but this is changing a bit). Hearings and trials are going to be more in person now. So we will be back to splitting an Uber from the airport to the hotel and getting dinner together the night before a deposition. Stuff like that.

[dabigchina]

One thing I've noticed: biglawyers tend to be tall. I'm about average height (think 5'8-510') and I was by far the shortest man in my start class.

[Anonymous User]

One thing I've noticed: biglawyers tend to be tall. I'm about average height (think 5'8-510') and I was by far the shortest man in my start class.

Certainly not all but yeah there is a trend I'd say. I'm 6'1 and pre legal career would be the tallest in the room more often than not. In my immediate group there are several people who are my height and at least one I have to look up at.

[Anonymous User]

I gained a bunch of weight during my time in biglaw. Didn’t feel like anyone held me in any different regard than before.

[Anonymous User]

One thing I've noticed: biglawyers tend to be tall. I'm about average height (think 5'8-510') and I was by far the shortest man in my start class.

I am a 5'5 man, so shoutout to my fellow shorties.

[Anonymous User]

This isn’t directly on topic, but it’s about as close as we ever come on TLS…

As an incoming junior, how self-conscious should I be about my male pattern baldness? Should I try to awkwardly cover it up or should I proudly embrace it as a sign that I am destined to become a horseshoe-bald boomer partner?

Would it be weird or unprofessional for me to do a buzz? What about a full-shaved shiny dome thing with a beard? (FWIW I’m a lanky tall white dude in his late 20s)

[Anonymous User]

As an incoming junior, how self-conscious should I be about my male pattern baldness? Should I try to awkwardly cover it up or should I proudly embrace it as a sign that I am destined to become a horseshoe-bald boomer partner?

If MPB were an issue almost no men in my law school class would have gotten jobs.

[Anonymous User]

This isn’t directly on topic, but it’s about as close as we ever come on TLS…

As an incoming junior, how self-conscious should I be about my male pattern baldness? Should I try to awkwardly cover it up or should I proudly embrace it as a sign that I am destined to become a horseshoe-bald boomer partner?

Would it be weird or unprofessional for me to do a buzz? What about a full-shaved shiny dome thing with a beard? (FWIW I’m a lanky tall white dude in his late 20s)

Try being a woman with female pattern baldness! I worry about this too but this topic has made me realize that it probably matters not in the slightest.

[Anonymous User]

Would like to address grooming habits here. Being well-groomed can make a very big impact in terms of first impressions on others. What do you define as being well-groomed?

I basically make sure of the following:
- hair is washed/clean
- appropriate shoes
- clothing that is not wrinkled
- eyebrows aren't out of control
- good hygiene

Do you all (especially women) put in much more effort than that? For example how much thought is put into your choice of clothing outside of it being professional attire? I ask because as a woman, I do feel some societal pressure to have a full face of make up (obv nothing too crazy), hair dyed (no whites or roots), no body / facial hair, maybe making sure my hair is straightened and looks especially neat. But all of these things take a lot of time and effort. Barely have the energy for it now, can't imagine I'd have more energy while working 12+ hours.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks everyone for your thoughts. These comments are useful and are helping put my anxieties in perspective.

[Anonymous User]

As an incoming junior, how self-conscious should I be about my male pattern baldness? Should I try to awkwardly cover it up or should I proudly embrace it as a sign that I am destined to become a horseshoe-bald boomer partner?

If MPB were an issue almost no men in my law school class would have gotten jobs.

Yeah MPB happens to most men at some point, not a big deal. I think a combover would be goofy on a young person but the other popular solutions (buzz or just ignore it and do whatever you did before) are fine. Tbh I’ll probably just do whatever my wife wants when it comes for me.