Biglaw "Culture" Firm-to-Firm Forum

[Anonymous User]

Piggybacking off this from the salary thread

I think there's a real chance CSM bumps juniors a little and cleans up the other figures. There's 0 chance Kirkland does anything. People need to get this through their heads re what's happened to the culture there. The wealthier the partners get there the cheaper they get. They're like the opposite of Milbank / DPW. If they're going to spend money they do it through targeted lateral hires, practice group buy outs, insane equity partner deals. They do not give a fuck about general associate comp.

Clerk sitting on Kirkland lit offer. Not exactly surprised by this, but, are there really any nurturing gardens to which I should abscond? For those working, what is different about your firm's culture? I always assumed Biglaw firms were gray shades of flavorlessness.

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland lit and corp are kind of like different worlds. Not that lit is all roses and candy either, but it’s different. Also different based on the office you’re going in to. NY, CH, DC are varying degrees of intense (and if it’s another office, I’m not sure since they would be much smaller in lit).

I would hesitate to decide on a different “nurturing garden” based on an anonymous message board post and instead try to connect with associates in your future office; most people will be candid. If you have classmates or even just alumni from either of your schools, or people who clerked for your judge or the same court, that’s a good intro for a cold email to try to learn more.

[Anonymous User]

Piggybacking off this from the salary thread

I think there's a real chance CSM bumps juniors a little and cleans up the other figures. There's 0 chance Kirkland does anything. People need to get this through their heads re what's happened to the culture there. The wealthier the partners get there the cheaper they get. They're like the opposite of Milbank / DPW. If they're going to spend money they do it through targeted lateral hires, practice group buy outs, insane equity partner deals. They do not give a fuck about general associate comp.

Clerk sitting on Kirkland lit offer. Not exactly surprised by this, but, are there really any nurturing gardens to which I should abscond? For those working, what is different about your firm's culture? I always assumed Biglaw firms were gray shades of flavorlessness.

Hi, I want to just tell you: I originally summered in Kirkland litigation and had an absolutely awful experience there because of the associates and partners and the specific type of personality that I encountered... Many of my friends are still there from that summer. I went back for my first year but in a different group which ended up being equally awful. Frequently, they say, associates will be yelled at for having "low hours" if they dare to take a vacation or slow down for a bit. Two of my friends have been called after their vacations and yelled at by share partners because their hours that month were "low." It's very confusing -- when are they supposed to take vacations? when their workloads are enormous so they can just abandon their working teams on large deadlines? Likewise, are they supposed to be churning through doc review when they're at the beach? I really wouldn't recommend it unless you've got nowhere else to go. I've seen the numbers of lit associates in my year leaving, almost all of them are now trying to clerk to leave for a year. I wish you good luck and god speed if you do end up there, friend. Other groups aren't so bad -- thinking funds regulatory, specifically, but litigation at kirkland is really not for the faint at heart from my anecdotal experience.

I'm sure there will be ppl who disagree, by all means. I'm not trying to poison the well, but I think not knowing this before I went there made it worse. I gave up a lot of good offers to go to a place with a culture like the ninth ring of hell and I regretted it immensely.

[Anonymous User]

Piggybacking off this from the salary thread

I think there's a real chance CSM bumps juniors a little and cleans up the other figures. There's 0 chance Kirkland does anything. People need to get this through their heads re what's happened to the culture there. The wealthier the partners get there the cheaper they get. They're like the opposite of Milbank / DPW. If they're going to spend money they do it through targeted lateral hires, practice group buy outs, insane equity partner deals. They do not give a fuck about general associate comp.

Clerk sitting on Kirkland lit offer. Not exactly surprised by this, but, are there really any nurturing gardens to which I should abscond? For those working, what is different about your firm's culture? I always assumed Biglaw firms were gray shades of flavorlessness.

Hi, I want to just tell you: I originally summered in Kirkland litigation and had an absolutely awful experience there because of the associates and partners and the specific type of personality that I encountered... Many of my friends are still there from that summer. I went back for my first year but in a different group which ended up being equally awful. Frequently, they say, associates will be yelled at for having "low hours" if they dare to take a vacation or slow down for a bit. Two of my friends have been called after their vacations and yelled at by share partners because their hours that month were "low." It's very confusing -- when are they supposed to take vacations? when their workloads are enormous so they can just abandon their working teams on large deadlines? Likewise, are they supposed to be churning through doc review when they're at the beach? I really wouldn't recommend it unless you've got nowhere else to go. I've seen the numbers of lit associates in my year leaving, almost all of them are now trying to clerk to leave for a year. I wish you good luck and god speed if you do end up there, friend. Other groups aren't so bad -- thinking funds regulatory, specifically, but litigation at kirkland is really not for the faint at heart from my anecdotal experience.

I'm sure there will be ppl who disagree, by all means. I'm not trying to poison the well, but I think not knowing this before I went there made it worse. I gave up a lot of good offers to go to a place with a culture like the ninth ring of hell and I regretted it immensely.

What KE Office?

[Anonymous User]

Yes. Please expand. Very interested. Considering K&E lit.. this might change things.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a (relative) junior in a well-known M&A practice. My hours are horrendous, from senior partners on down (with on senior associate excepted), everyone has been gracious, reasonable on timing given context of deal, etc. very different from the horror stories bandied about on this board.

would definitely have lateraled if not the case. so yeah, would say culture matters.

EDIT - I am not at KE

[Anonymous User]

If this thread is to be at all useful or interesting, people have to name their firms. If you are one of 500 associates (currently; one of 1000s over the last X years), the risk of anything being traced back to you is low. And if sharing details makes you nervous, change a few details to give yourself cover.

[Anonymous User]

If this thread is to be at all useful or interesting, people have to name their firms. If you are one of 500 associates (currently; one of 1000s over the last X years), the risk of anything being traced back to you is low. And if sharing details makes you nervous, change a few details to give yourself cover.

And as a KE associate I hope that people sharing experiences will also share their office. Because it really can vary pretty significantly from office to office. Since OP is asking about lit there are different lit power centers at KE in Chicago, DC, and New York and different experiences associated with being at each location.

[Anonymous User]

Yes. Please expand. Very interested. Considering K&E lit.. this might change things.

Anonymous posts might change things? Why don't you reach out to people who have lateraled.

[Anonymous User]

If this thread is to be at all useful or interesting, people have to name their firms. If you are one of 500 associates (currently; one of 1000s over the last X years), the risk of anything being traced back to you is low. And if sharing details makes you nervous, change a few details to give yourself cover.

And as a KE associate I hope that people sharing experiences will also share their office. Because it really can vary pretty significantly from office to office. Since OP is asking about lit there are different lit power centers at KE in Chicago, DC, and New York and different experiences associated with being at each location.

Curious about the difference between the three (especially NY vs DC)

[Anonymous User]

Piggybacking off this from the salary thread

I think there's a real chance CSM bumps juniors a little and cleans up the other figures. There's 0 chance Kirkland does anything. People need to get this through their heads re what's happened to the culture there. The wealthier the partners get there the cheaper they get. They're like the opposite of Milbank / DPW. If they're going to spend money they do it through targeted lateral hires, practice group buy outs, insane equity partner deals. They do not give a fuck about general associate comp.

Clerk sitting on Kirkland lit offer. Not exactly surprised by this, but, are there really any nurturing gardens to which I should abscond? For those working, what is different about your firm's culture? I always assumed Biglaw firms were gray shades of flavorlessness.

Hi, I want to just tell you: I originally summered in Kirkland litigation and had an absolutely awful experience there because of the associates and partners and the specific type of personality that I encountered... Many of my friends are still there from that summer. I went back for my first year but in a different group which ended up being equally awful. Frequently, they say, associates will be yelled at for having "low hours" if they dare to take a vacation or slow down for a bit. Two of my friends have been called after their vacations and yelled at by share partners because their hours that month were "low." It's very confusing -- when are they supposed to take vacations? when their workloads are enormous so they can just abandon their working teams on large deadlines? Likewise, are they supposed to be churning through doc review when they're at the beach? I really wouldn't recommend it unless you've got nowhere else to go. I've seen the numbers of lit associates in my year leaving, almost all of them are now trying to clerk to leave for a year. I wish you good luck and god speed if you do end up there, friend. Other groups aren't so bad -- thinking funds regulatory, specifically, but litigation at kirkland is really not for the faint at heart from my anecdotal experience.

I'm sure there will be ppl who disagree, by all means. I'm not trying to poison the well, but I think not knowing this before I went there made it worse. I gave up a lot of good offers to go to a place with a culture like the ninth ring of hell and I regretted it immensely.

I’m a Kirkland M&A associate and have never once had anyone even mention my hours, let alone yell at me about them, even in months when I’ve billed like literally 30 hours because things were slow. I’ve also refused to take new deals because they conflicted with my vacation and people were like ok whatever catch you on the next one.

I’m not trying to question the legitimacy of your experience in lit, just surprised to hear it given how alien it sounds to me (as a member of a busy and hard-charging practice area). I would also be curious to hear which office you were at because my lit friends haven’t reported anything like that.

[malibustacy]

I'd almost swear people get paid to shill against Kirkland on this forum.

[Anonymous User]

If people are shy of sharing negative cultural experiences within named firms, how about some positive experiences?

Does anyone regret leaving a firm because the culture was better than you thought and you only realized it later?

[Anonymous User]

I'd almost swear people get paid to shill against Kirkland on this forum.

Amen. It totally blows my mind how much negative shit is said about K&E on these forums. Although it’s not just on this forum..

The reputation of the firm was rough on my law school campus and seems to also be rough in the legal industry more broadly (as suggested by the recent article in Bloomberg where the managing partner was talking about it being difficult to hire lateral partners because of the rep).

I’m pretty impressionable and in my 3L year, I recall meeting a number of very experienced, practicing lawyers at great firms express their “condolences” when I mentioned I will be joining K&E. I was alarmed and I sensed their reaction would’ve been different if I replaced K&E with any other v10 firm (don’t mean to harp on vault rankings, but just mean to suggest that K&E seems to stand out in some people’s minds from that pack as being a particularly tough place to start one’s career). But, I had a couple good mentors who encouraged me to follow my instincts and not get wrapped up in the firm stereotypes.

I thank them for that advice because I’ve genuinely only had very good experiences interacting with K&E — from the interview process, to the summer, part-time work during 3L, and now my experience as an associate. The delta between the rep and my lived experience is huge and the 2-3 people who are slightly more senior than me that I’m close to at the firm all seem to be having pleasant experiences (within the confines of the expected fast-pace nature of this kind of work).

I’m not being paid or influenced in any way to write any of the above. Just wanted to share my experience because I was pretty concerned after I accepted my K&E offer that perhaps I made the wrong choice based on the reactions I got from a lot of people I came across plus all the commentary on the forums. I wondered if I should have just taken the safer path of joining a firm with both a solid reputation and excellent Corporate practice.

But my more substantive diligence (like talking to a few mentors I trust and current associates) and evaluating the firm’s trajectory over the years led me to stay put. No regrets so far.

FWIW: NY office, Corporate

[Anonymous User]

If people are shy of sharing negative cultural experiences within named firms, how about some positive experiences?

Does anyone regret leaving a firm because the culture was better than you thought and you only realized it later?

Lmao if anyone shared a POSITIVE experience about Kirkland on here, people will get upset and pretend that the person leaving a positive review is making it up, paid by Kirkland to write the review, or otherwise being somehow nefarious in leaving the review. Don't you know the rule? You can only say negative things about Kirkland on TLS.

[Anonymous User]

The delta between the rep and my lived experience is huge and the 2-3 people who are slightly more senior than me that I’m close to at the firm all seem to be having pleasant experiences (within the confines of the expected fast-pace nature of this kind of work).

I agree people tend to gang up on K&E, but what does the underlined mean in practical terms? What does it mean to describe K&E as "fast paced"? Genuinely curious.

[Anonymous User]

The delta between the rep and my lived experience is huge and the 2-3 people who are slightly more senior than me that I’m close to at the firm all seem to be having pleasant experiences (within the confines of the expected fast-pace nature of this kind of work).

I agree people tend to gang up on K&E, but what does the underlined mean in practical terms? What does it mean to describe K&E as "fast paced"? Genuinely curious.

I interpreted their comment as simply meaning that the people they know at K&E have had as pleasant of an experience as one can have in big law. I don't think they were implying that K&E is uniquely fast-paced relative to its peer firms.

[Anonymous User]

The delta between the rep and my lived experience is huge and the 2-3 people who are slightly more senior than me that I’m close to at the firm all seem to be having pleasant experiences (within the confines of the expected fast-pace nature of this kind of work).

I agree people tend to gang up on K&E, but what does the underlined mean in practical terms? What does it mean to describe K&E as "fast paced"? Genuinely curious.

I interpreted their comment as simply meaning that the people they know at K&E have had as pleasant of an experience as one can have in big law. I don't think they were implying that K&E is uniquely fast-paced relative to its peer firms.

I'm the one who asked the question. I asked because I keep hearing that phrase used w/r/t Kirkland (including by a recruiter, albeit pre-COVID/Great Resignation).

Trying to figure out what that means (e.g. heightened expectation to turn around documents in x time etc.).

[Anonymous User]

OP here: By fast-paced nature of the work, I was not referring to anything unique to working at K&E.

I just meant to highlight that at the end of the day this is still the kind of job where you have to be attentive to your inbox while you’re up because things can pick up pretty quickly and sometimes unexpectedly. When things do pick up, you will have a really busy few days.

The good news is that you being busy usually means that the deals you are on are hitting some milestone (signing, closing, etc.), which I think is pretty exciting. When the deal is something written about in the newspaper, I might mail a clipping of the article to my parents once I have some downtime - this has become a source of pride in our family. The less high-profile deals are arguably even more satisfying, as they tend to have smaller deal teams. In turn, as a junior, you were probably more involved in guiding the deal forward and learning all of the nitty gritty details of why things were structured the way they were.

I’ve only worked at one firm, so I can’t really compare my experience to others but I can’t imagine my experience being any more intense than that of my counterparts.

One of my mentors at K&E who has had the benefit of working at several firms prior to joining K&E a few years ago shared with me his take: most of the negative aspects/stresses of working in this field that can be mitigated, have been mitigated at K&E. What you are left with is a job that is still fast-paced and quite demanding at times, but in a really well-managed organization with its best days ahead of it.

[Anonymous User]

Yes. Please expand. Very interested. Considering K&E lit.. this might change things.

Kirkland Lit in New York depends a lot on your practice group. Many KE lit associates are very unhappy, under immense pressure to work constantly, and trying to leave to other firms. It's not a good situation.

Reach out to current associates in the group you are considering joining *outside of* the recruiting process. HR is only going to set you up with associates who they knew are happy / will toe the company line. If you want to get a real understanding of how things are, look up the attorneys who HR hasn't mentioned and send them an email, focusing on attorneys who have been there a while and can give you the honest scoop. Too many people join under the false impression that things are gonna be great after getting a biased view of things. Don't make the same mistake.

[Anonymous User]

KE Lit. Billed 3000+ and left along with a few others cross-staffed on mega cases. The whole experience was rough; trial partners largely insane workers/oddballs.

Did not get good impressions from Chicago/CA partners. I wouldn't recommend the experience to anyone. I did make a few great associate/staff friends though.

[Anonymous User]

OP here: By fast-paced nature of the work, I was not referring to anything unique to working at K&E.

I just meant to highlight that at the end of the day this is still the kind of job where you have to be attentive to your inbox while you’re up because things can pick up pretty quickly and sometimes unexpectedly. When things do pick up, you will have a really busy few days.

The good news is that you being busy usually means that the deals you are on are hitting some milestone (signing, closing, etc.), which I think is pretty exciting. When the deal is something written about in the newspaper, I might mail a clipping of the article to my parents once I have some downtime - this has become a source of pride in our family. The less high-profile deals are arguably even more satisfying, as they tend to have smaller deal teams. In turn, as a junior, you were probably more involved in guiding the deal forward and learning all of the nitty gritty details of why things were structured the way they were.

I’ve only worked at one firm, so I can’t really compare my experience to others but I can’t imagine my experience being any more intense than that of my counterparts.

One of my mentors at K&E who has had the benefit of working at several firms prior to joining K&E a few years ago shared with me his take: most of the negative aspects/stresses of working in this field that can be mitigated, have been mitigated at K&E. What you are left with is a job that is still fast-paced and quite demanding at times, but in a really well-managed organization with its best days ahead of it.

Also at K&E, in corporate. I researched this intently during the 1L and 2L job search, as someone who was lucky to have multiple V10 offers and summered at two different V10s. I chose K&E in part because all of its disadvantages were also present in the other firm I summered at, and the other peer firms I interviewed with.

Does the job have negative aspects? Yes, absolutely. Are those negatives unique to K&E? No, it’s the same problems with any BigLaw firm, especially a V10 (or similar peer firm). Comparing notes with friends at other firms, any complaint I have is matched by the same complaint at another firm. In some cases, I think my situation here is actually better (like being able to freely turn down new deals if I don’t have capacity).

The only uniquely negative factors I can think of are just the flip side of being successful: the firm has tons of work, which is good for obvious reasons. The flip side is, you’re more likely to be busy. The firm is also dominant in private equity, which is extremely profitable. The flip side is, private equity clients can sometimes be extra demanding and work on tight timelines. If you’re working for PE clients at a firm with lots of new work coming in, it’ll be literally the same exact thing.

[Anonymous User]

As a senior M&A associate on the corporate side, I always hear great things from Debevoise, and they have been consistently one of the most commercial and pleasant firms to work across from on deals. I've had similarly pleasant experiences with S&C, Cleary, Willkie, Fried Frank, Davis Polk, probably a few others I'm forgetting.

I've had pretty consistently negative experiences working across from K&E and Paul, Weiss. Uncommercial, belligerent, quick to raise their voices or drop f-bombs on calls, play games with timing, wait all week to dump agreements on every Friday night, etc. Now that I think about it, that may be more of a result of their working with PE clients, and that shit rolling downhill and setting precedent for other deals.

[Anonymous User]

Yes. Please expand. Very interested. Considering K&E lit.. this might change things.

Kirkland Lit in New York depends a lot on your practice group. Many KE lit associates are very unhappy, under immense pressure to work constantly, and trying to leave to other firms. It's not a good situation.

Reach out to current associates in the group you are considering joining *outside of* the recruiting process. HR is only going to set you up with associates who they knew are happy / will toe the company line. If you want to get a real understanding of how things are, look up the attorneys who HR hasn't mentioned and send them an email, focusing on attorneys who have been there a while and can give you the honest scoop. Too many people join under the false impression that things are gonna be great after getting a biased view of things. Don't make the same mistake.

KE lit NYC associate chiming in. This rings accurate. The expectation is just really brutal in terms of how many hours we should be billing, how late we should be available, how we should indulge partners expectations and asks from them no matter how unrealistic and unreasonable, the general turn-around time day in day out, etc.

[Anonymous User]

Piggybacking off this from the salary thread

I think there's a real chance CSM bumps juniors a little and cleans up the other figures. There's 0 chance Kirkland does anything. People need to get this through their heads re what's happened to the culture there. The wealthier the partners get there the cheaper they get. They're like the opposite of Milbank / DPW. If they're going to spend money they do it through targeted lateral hires, practice group buy outs, insane equity partner deals. They do not give a fuck about general associate comp.

Clerk sitting on Kirkland lit offer. Not exactly surprised by this, but, are there really any nurturing gardens to which I should abscond? For those working, what is different about your firm's culture? I always assumed Biglaw firms were gray shades of flavorlessness.

Hi, I want to just tell you: I originally summered in Kirkland litigation and had an absolutely awful experience there because of the associates and partners and the specific type of personality that I encountered... Many of my friends are still there from that summer. I went back for my first year but in a different group which ended up being equally awful. Frequently, they say, associates will be yelled at for having "low hours" if they dare to take a vacation or slow down for a bit. Two of my friends have been called after their vacations and yelled at by share partners because their hours that month were "low." It's very confusing -- when are they supposed to take vacations? when their workloads are enormous so they can just abandon their working teams on large deadlines? Likewise, are they supposed to be churning through doc review when they're at the beach? I really wouldn't recommend it unless you've got nowhere else to go. I've seen the numbers of lit associates in my year leaving, almost all of them are now trying to clerk to leave for a year. I wish you good luck and god speed if you do end up there, friend. Other groups aren't so bad -- thinking funds regulatory, specifically, but litigation at kirkland is really not for the faint at heart from my anecdotal experience.

I'm sure there will be ppl who disagree, by all means. I'm not trying to poison the well, but I think not knowing this before I went there made it worse. I gave up a lot of good offers to go to a place with a culture like the ninth ring of hell and I regretted it immensely.

What KE Office?

Quoted OP: KE NYC. All my friends are KE NYC as well. Good luck to all & good wishes during these tRYING times to say the lease.