Counsel Pay Forum

[Anonymous User]

Are there any good sources of counsel pay available out there (or could anybody share the salary range at their firm)?

I’ve heard figures like $700k for DPW but I don’t know if it’s bogus. It’s not much higher than senior associate pay at mine.

[Anonymous User]

I'm far from an expert (just a midlevel who likes talking to people) so take it all with several grains of salt.

My understanding is that it is largely negotiated, with the baseline at the highest senior associate comp level. I've heard for lawyers outside of biglaw normally get paid something like 1/3rd of their billed amounts (leaving however much for overhead and profits etc.)? With that number increasing to 1/2 as you get more senior and 'important' and talented.

Sounds like it could make sense for a biglaw counsel too.

[Anonymous User]

Take my post with a fistful of salt as well, but I'm at a V50 and I remember the global head of my M&A team saying that counsel makes "a bit more than a senior associate." I interpret that to mean $550k. Again, this is my guesstimate based off of hearsay.

[Anonymous User]

Are there any good sources of counsel pay available out there (or could anybody share the salary range at their firm)?

I’ve heard figures like $700k for DPW but I don’t know if it’s bogus. It’s not much higher than senior associate pay at mine.

My V10 did a presentation on it that put the average (or median...can't remember which) counsel pay around $700k. I think average non-equity partner was like $1.1m. Obviously this is going to vary a ton from firm to firm and from person to person.

[Anonymous User]

Hmm what's the math that gets a counsel to $700k if my 1/3rd billing rate is accurate?

Let's say 2100 hours, 1k billing rate, $2.1m revenue? Does that line up based on peoples' understanding? Idk what counsel billing rates are at these days.

[Wanderingdrock]

Hmm what's the math that gets a counsel to $700k if my 1/3rd billing rate is accurate?

Let's say 2100 hours, 1k billing rate, $2.1m revenue? Does that line up based on peoples' understanding? Idk what counsel billing rates are at these days.

Not sure your 1/3 billing rate is right. Most of what I've heard (setting aside the huge variation I'm sure there is across firms, but I've heard this about multiple firms) is that counsel get a base salary slightly above senior associates' but 1) counsels' bonuses can be significantly higher and 2) their billables are likely to be lower than the senior associates' due to their bonuses depending on various nonbillable factors not assessed for senior associates.

[Anonymous User]

Hmm what's the math that gets a counsel to $700k if my 1/3rd billing rate is accurate?

Let's say 2100 hours, 1k billing rate, $2.1m revenue? Does that line up based on peoples' understanding? Idk what counsel billing rates are at these days.

$1k is the billable rate for a midlevel at a V50 these days. Counsels are probably billing more like $1,500.

[Anonymous User]

Hmm what's the math that gets a counsel to $700k if my 1/3rd billing rate is accurate?

Let's say 2100 hours, 1k billing rate, $2.1m revenue? Does that line up based on peoples' understanding? Idk what counsel billing rates are at these days.

$1k is the billable rate for a midlevel at a V50 these days. Counsels are probably billing more like $1,500.

Must vary pretty widely from firm to firm because I think the top billing rate at my V25 is $1200 or so

[Anonymous User]

Hmm what's the math that gets a counsel to $700k if my 1/3rd billing rate is accurate?

Let's say 2100 hours, 1k billing rate, $2.1m revenue? Does that line up based on peoples' understanding? Idk what counsel billing rates are at these days.

$1k is the billable rate for a midlevel at a V50 these days. Counsels are probably billing more like $1,500.

Must vary pretty widely from firm to firm because I think the top billing rate at my V25 is $1200 or so

Definitely varies between firms, and also between practice groups. I'm a mid-level at a v25 and my rate is $1,050

[Anonymous User]

Hmm what's the math that gets a counsel to $700k if my 1/3rd billing rate is accurate?

Let's say 2100 hours, 1k billing rate, $2.1m revenue? Does that line up based on peoples' understanding? Idk what counsel billing rates are at these days.

$1k is the billable rate for a midlevel at a V50 these days. Counsels are probably billing more like $1,500.

Must vary pretty widely from firm to firm because I think the top billing rate at my V25 is $1200 or so

Definitely varies between firms, and also between practice groups. I'm a mid-level at a v25 and my rate is $1,050

$1k for a midlevel might be a bit of an exaggeration. At my V20 I have seen partner bill rates range from $1300-$1400 (seems to be a common number) to low $2000s (high end), and this a firm that has had clients leave for V10s due to our billing rates being "too high."

[Ultramar vistas]

Hmm what's the math that gets a counsel to $700k if my 1/3rd billing rate is accurate?

Let's say 2100 hours, 1k billing rate, $2.1m revenue? Does that line up based on peoples' understanding? Idk what counsel billing rates are at these days.

$1k is the billable rate for a midlevel at a V50 these days. Counsels are probably billing more like $1,500.

Must vary pretty widely from firm to firm because I think the top billing rate at my V25 is $1200 or so

Definitely varies between firms, and also between practice groups. I'm a mid-level at a v25 and my rate is $1,050

$1k for a midlevel might be a bit of an exaggeration. At my V20 I have seen partner bill rates range from $1300-$1400 (seems to be a common number) to low $2000s (high end), and this a firm that has had clients leave for V10s due to our billing rates being "too high."

It’s really not. I’m a 4th year at a V10, my rate is 1100 as of Jan 1, and on bills I’ve been asked to review, I have seen partners as high as 1800. I’d think counsel is more like 1500.

[Anonymous User]

Counsel at an AmLaw 100 here. Our counsel billable rates are probably under $900/hour for a lot of younger counsel so we aren't in a position to shatter the market for counsel. Our counsel comp starts at a small raise after you are promoted from being an associate (senior associates make market). Not sure what the comp looks like for folks who lateral over or who are career counsel vs those who are spending the required 1-2 years at counsel before going up for (nonequity) partner. Similarly, bonuses are basically the same as what senior associates get but based more on collections and economics than straight hours based. Because most counsel are expected to be progressing to partnership there's less of a push to increase compensation - if someone is bringing the firm a ton of money, their reward is making partner, not market breaking compensation. We are obviously NOT DPW, and counsel are not making $700k here, but no one is in poverty.

[Anonymous User]

A counsel who bills at $1200/hr and realizes 1750 hours (after write-offs etc) generates $2.1MM. The rule of thumb of taking home 1/3rd of generation ends up right at $700k. Seems about right for a V20 or so. Most counsel at my firm are not crazy billers (from what I can tell) but rather they are incredibly niche specialists who have decided that sticking on to a big firm that can bring them clients who need their niche specialty is best for them.

[Anonymous User]

Hmm what's the math that gets a counsel to $700k if my 1/3rd billing rate is accurate?

Let's say 2100 hours, 1k billing rate, $2.1m revenue? Does that line up based on peoples' understanding? Idk what counsel billing rates are at these days.

$1k is the billable rate for a midlevel at a V50 these days. Counsels are probably billing more like $1,500.

Must vary pretty widely from firm to firm because I think the top billing rate at my V25 is $1200 or so

Definitely varies between firms, and also between practice groups. I'm a mid-level at a v25 and my rate is $1,050

$1k for a midlevel might be a bit of an exaggeration. At my V20 I have seen partner bill rates range from $1300-$1400 (seems to be a common number) to low $2000s (high end), and this a firm that has had clients leave for V10s due to our billing rates being "too high."

Hmm what's the math that gets a counsel to $700k if my 1/3rd billing rate is accurate?

Let's say 2100 hours, 1k billing rate, $2.1m revenue? Does that line up based on peoples' understanding? Idk what counsel billing rates are at these days.

$1k is the billable rate for a midlevel at a V50 these days. Counsels are probably billing more like $1,500.

Must vary pretty widely from firm to firm because I think the top billing rate at my V25 is $1200 or so

Definitely varies between firms, and also between practice groups. I'm a mid-level at a v25 and my rate is $1,050

$1k for a midlevel might be a bit of an exaggeration. At my V20 I have seen partner bill rates range from $1300-$1400 (seems to be a common number) to low $2000s (high end), and this a firm that has had clients leave for V10s due to our billing rates being "too high."

As a client, I've only seen $1k mid-levels from the v10, and only very recently. I will say they lost work in part over that. I don't mind the $1,800/hr Senior partner, but the $1,000/hr 4th year provides a lot less value per hour.

[Anonymous User]

V-20 1st year counsel (would otherwise be a "9th year" associate) base comp at $400K. I'm not sure what the bonus will be relative to senior associates. I definitely got the impression that base comp for counsel is very much on an individual basis (and may be a factor of what other firms are offering to get you to lateral).

Firm also appears to contribute 7.5% of total compensation (including on bonus) to 401K (unadvertised, but was a very pleasant surprise) and offers excess liability coverage to counsel.

in some practices, counsel is a 1-2 year stepping stone to (non-equity) partner. In others, it's a long term career track less likely to lead to partnership. Even in practices where it's a stepping stone, there are some that go directly from associate to partner.

[Anonymous User]

As a client, I've only seen $1k mid-levels from the v10, and only very recently. I will say they lost work in part over that. I don't mind the $1,800/hr Senior partner, but the $1,000/hr 4th year provides a lot less value per hour.

I'm sure there's a difference in most cases between what the firm's base rate is and what actually gets billed out (either because hours or cut or rate is cut), but at my old V50 the base rate for a 4th year in 2019 or 2020 was $1,050 and I'm sure it's higher now. I'm also confident that it's higher at a V10.

Also, my recollection is that there was a pretty steep increase in rates from 1st to 4th year and then it really flattened out. Rates pretty much doubled from 1st to 4th/5th year and junior partners were only ~30-40% more than 4th/5th years.

[Anonymous User]

As a client, I've only seen $1k mid-levels from the v10, and only very recently. I will say they lost work in part over that. I don't mind the $1,800/hr Senior partner, but the $1,000/hr 4th year provides a lot less value per hour.

I'm sure there's a difference in most cases between what the firm's base rate is and what actually gets billed out (either because hours or cut or rate is cut), but at my old V50 the base rate for a 4th year in 2019 or 2020 was $1,050 and I'm sure it's higher now. I'm also confident that it's higher at a V10.

Also, my recollection is that there was a pretty steep increase in rates from 1st to 4th year and then it really flattened out. Rates pretty much doubled from 1st to 4th/5th year and junior partners were only ~30-40% more than 4th/5th years.

Base rates tend to be a "mark-em up to mark em down" type of thing. It's rare not to get at least 10-20% off from those. I was quoting $1k for a 4th year after discounts. But I'd also note that I'm used to Texas or London rates. I suppose NYC can be higher. It also depends on the engagement. On a major company life event (like a merger with another public company), the law bills tend to be a lot less tight than a more discrete asset deal.

[Anonymous User]

At my V50 counsel is considered "worse" than senior associate in three ways:

First, base counsel salary will always be whatever the seniormost associate base is (so if the market raises, that helps counsel too) but counsel, unlike associates, don't have guaranteed automatic yearly raises based on seniority.

Second, counsel are treated like partners in that they get zero benefits. Associates don't exactly get awesome benefits, but having the firm pay 50% of health insurance instead of 0% is worth a few thousand $$ per year.

Third, counsel also don't have guaranteed annual market bonuses based on hours. Odds are that in any given good year for the firm/counsel, counsel will get a market or better bonus, but if the firm really wanted to screw you on bonus they could.

On the other hand, there's one way in which being counsel can be better, which is that bonuses can be flexible on the upside too, so if you kick ass on billings, a $200k+ bonus is possible.

[EliteFlyer]

At my V50 counsel is considered "worse" than senior associate in three ways:

First, base counsel salary will always be whatever the seniormost associate base is (so if the market raises, that helps counsel too) but counsel, unlike associates, don't have guaranteed automatic yearly raises based on seniority.

Second, counsel are treated like partners in that they get zero benefits. Associates don't exactly get awesome benefits, but having the firm pay 50% of health insurance instead of 0% is worth a few thousand $$ per year.

Third, counsel also don't have guaranteed annual market bonuses based on hours. Odds are that in any given good year for the firm/counsel, counsel will get a market or better bonus, but if the firm really wanted to screw you on bonus they could.

On the other hand, there's one way in which being counsel can be better, which is that bonuses can be flexible on the upside too, so if you kick ass on billings, a $200k+ bonus is possible.

That bit about not getting any benefits is pretty terrible unless you're in a unique situation e.g. where you have access to healthcare plan through a working spouse. I'm surprised and would have expected that to only be applicable to partners.

[Anonymous User]

V-20 1st year counsel (would otherwise be a "9th year" associate) base comp at $400K. I'm not sure what the bonus will be relative to senior associates. I definitely got the impression that base comp for counsel is very much on an individual basis (and may be a factor of what other firms are offering to get you to lateral).

Firm also appears to contribute 7.5% of total compensation (including on bonus) to 401K (unadvertised, but was a very pleasant surprise) and offers excess liability coverage to counsel.

in some practices, counsel is a 1-2 year stepping stone to (non-equity) partner. In others, it's a long term career track less likely to lead to partnership. Even in practices where it's a stepping stone, there are some that go directly from associate to partner.

Would just note that the 7.5% firm contribution to 401K is only on the first $215,000 of annual compensation.

[Anonymous User]

Can anyone verify the $700k figure for DPW and/or provide any other details or anecdotes about DPW's counsel salary and bonus structure?

[2013]

V-20 1st year counsel (would otherwise be a "9th year" associate) base comp at $400K. I'm not sure what the bonus will be relative to senior associates. I definitely got the impression that base comp for counsel is very much on an individual basis (and may be a factor of what other firms are offering to get you to lateral).

Firm also appears to contribute 7.5% of total compensation (including on bonus) to 401K (unadvertised, but was a very pleasant surprise) and offers excess liability coverage to counsel.

in some practices, counsel is a 1-2 year stepping stone to (non-equity) partner. In others, it's a long term career track less likely to lead to partnership. Even in practices where it's a stepping stone, there are some that go directly from associate to partner.

Would just note that the 7.5% firm contribution to 401K is only on the first $215,000 of annual compensation.

Why is it only on $215k? The annual limit this year for comp is $305k.

[Anonymous User]

V-20 1st year counsel (would otherwise be a "9th year" associate) base comp at $400K. I'm not sure what the bonus will be relative to senior associates. I definitely got the impression that base comp for counsel is very much on an individual basis (and may be a factor of what other firms are offering to get you to lateral).

Firm also appears to contribute 7.5% of total compensation (including on bonus) to 401K (unadvertised, but was a very pleasant surprise) and offers excess liability coverage to counsel.

in some practices, counsel is a 1-2 year stepping stone to (non-equity) partner. In others, it's a long term career track less likely to lead to partnership. Even in practices where it's a stepping stone, there are some that go directly from associate to partner.

Would just note that the 7.5% firm contribution to 401K is only on the first $215,000 of annual compensation.

Why is it only on $215k? The annual limit this year for comp is $305k.

That's just the rule - I'm not sure how they came up with the limit. It applies to counsel and certain business service professionals.

[almostperfectt]

V-20 1st year counsel (would otherwise be a "9th year" associate) base comp at $400K. I'm not sure what the bonus will be relative to senior associates. I definitely got the impression that base comp for counsel is very much on an individual basis (and may be a factor of what other firms are offering to get you to lateral).

Firm also appears to contribute 7.5% of total compensation (including on bonus) to 401K (unadvertised, but was a very pleasant surprise) and offers excess liability coverage to counsel.

in some practices, counsel is a 1-2 year stepping stone to (non-equity) partner. In others, it's a long term career track less likely to lead to partnership. Even in practices where it's a stepping stone, there are some that go directly from associate to partner.

Would just note that the 7.5% firm contribution to 401K is only on the first $215,000 of annual compensation.

Why is it only on $215k? The annual limit this year for comp is $305k.

That's just the rule - I'm not sure how they came up with the limit. It applies to counsel and certain business service professionals.

There's an ERISA rule for highly compensated employees where basically the entire 401k system blows up if the employer gives too much money to its highest paid employees. Might be related

[Anonymous User]

At my V10, counsel comp ranges from $500k to $800k or so, with the average falling in the higher end of that range. Income partner comp ranges from the top of the counsel range up to $2M or so with the average in the $1-$1.5M range.