Does Y @ sticker ever make sense over CCN full rides for maximizing ROI? Forum

[jotarokujo]

"Benefits for your kids" or "what it could mean for my kids" is downright fantastical. I'm sorry to prod, but are you first-generation (to elite universities and/or law school generally)? Because it's not clear at all what you're talking about unless you have some kind of deep-set insecurity about your parents' preftige. Especially since we're talking about the marginal benefits for the progeny of YLS grads that don't exist for the offspring of other T6 grads (who tend to work the same jobs, make the same money, and travel in the same social circles).

Never mind that we're weighing these purported benefits against the seven-figure bequest you could make to your kids by saving the $200k in your 20's. Ask anyone on the street if they'd rather have a million-dollar trust fund or be able to say "my dad attended Yale Law".

(And lol @ the presumptuousness of "if only I'd gone to HYS, I'd be clerking for SCOTUS")

i think you're right on all of the main points but i don't think it's right that t6 grads "tend to work the same jobs" and "travel in the same social circles" as folks from Y/S. the composition of the student body is pretty different at yale law school and CCN - a lot more privileged upbringings, more people who went to top high schools and undergrads, and more people not going into biglaw. folks who did get into both y/s and ccn but ended up at ccn are specifically people who do not have huge family family wealth, whereas those who picked y/s more likely are. and i've found that the family wealth at yls and sls is much higher than that of the student body of any undergrad, which im not sure is the case at ccn.

[The Lsat Airbender]

"Benefits for your kids" or "what it could mean for my kids" is downright fantastical. I'm sorry to prod, but are you first-generation (to elite universities and/or law school generally)? Because it's not clear at all what you're talking about unless you have some kind of deep-set insecurity about your parents' preftige. Especially since we're talking about the marginal benefits for the progeny of YLS grads that don't exist for the offspring of other T6 grads (who tend to work the same jobs, make the same money, and travel in the same social circles).

Never mind that we're weighing these purported benefits against the seven-figure bequest you could make to your kids by saving the $200k in your 20's. Ask anyone on the street if they'd rather have a million-dollar trust fund or be able to say "my dad attended Yale Law".

(And lol @ the presumptuousness of "if only I'd gone to HYS, I'd be clerking for SCOTUS")

i think you're right on all of the main points but i don't think it's right that t6 grads "tend to work the same jobs" and "travel in the same social circles" as folks from Y/S. the composition of the student body is pretty different at yale law school and CCN - a lot more privileged upbringings, more people who went to top high schools and undergrads, and more people not going into biglaw. folks who did get into both y/s and ccn but ended up at ccn are specifically people who do not have huge family family wealth, whereas those who picked y/s more likely are. and i've found that the family wealth at yls and sls is much higher than that of the student body of any undergrad, which im not sure is the case at ccn.

Perhaps. But that just reinforces my priors that a lot of the "special outcomes" out of Y(/S) have more to do with the sorts of people who attend those schools than a causal relationship between attendance and success (on all points, marginally relative to HCCN).

[Anonymous User]

"Benefits for your kids" or "what it could mean for my kids" is downright fantastical. I'm sorry to prod, but are you first-generation (to elite universities and/or law school generally)? Because it's not clear at all what you're talking about unless you have some kind of deep-set insecurity about your parents' preftige. Especially since we're talking about the marginal benefits for the progeny of YLS grads that don't exist for the offspring of other T6 grads (who tend to work the same jobs, make the same money, and travel in the same social circles).

Never mind that we're weighing these purported benefits against the seven-figure bequest you could make to your kids by saving the $200k in your 20's. Ask anyone on the street if they'd rather have a million-dollar trust fund or be able to say "my dad attended Yale Law".

(And lol @ the presumptuousness of "if only I'd gone to HYS, I'd be clerking for SCOTUS")

i think you're right on all of the main points but i don't think it's right that t6 grads "tend to work the same jobs" and "travel in the same social circles" as folks from Y/S. the composition of the student body is pretty different at yale law school and CCN - a lot more privileged upbringings, more people who went to top high schools and undergrads, and more people not going into biglaw. folks who did get into both y/s and ccn but ended up at ccn are specifically people who do not have huge family family wealth, whereas those who picked y/s more likely are. and i've found that the family wealth at yls and sls is much higher than that of the student body of any undergrad, which im not sure is the case at ccn.

Perhaps. But that just reinforces my priors that a lot of the "special outcomes" out of Y(/S) have more to do with the sorts of people who attend those schools than a causal relationship between attendance and success (on all points, marginally relative to HCCN).

Yeah, people at my Y/S really aren't interested in "normie" options (though many will take them). More people considering going to their hometown and taking a paycut to jumpstart a political career, more people into academia, etc. Obviously I don't know HCCN that well, but I presume they (maybe minus H) are far more biglaw-focused.

Edit: should note that I picked Y/S over decent money at a t6 because I am explicitly interested in going a non-traditional route (politics) and I didn't see the t6 helping me nearly as much as Y/S.

[Anonymous User]

There is no job that a Penn student could get that a Chicago student couldn't (assuming the same GPA/controlled factors). If there is a hindrance to Chicago students realizing their goals, it is due to their autism.

This comment is both underrated and correct.

[Anonymous User]

There is no job that a Penn student could get that a Chicago student couldn't (assuming the same GPA/controlled factors). If there is a hindrance to Chicago students realizing their goals, it is due to their autism.

This comment is both underrated and correct.

True at all levels. I loved my time at the UofC, but I'm also an autist of the highest order.

[Anonymous User]

deleted

[Saami]

Given your apparent fixation on prestige, just go to Yale. You will always regret not going, and telling people "I got into Yale but took a full ride at Columbia instead" isn't going to scratch the same itch.

Oh, and yes, you are an idiot.

DON'T DO THIS. I was also fixated on prestige when I was going through the admissions process, and almost turned down the Hamilton Fellowship at Columbia to attend Harvard at a little over half price. Even when I initially chose Columbia, I regretted my decision at first because I couldn't get the prestige nonsense out of my head. Now that I'm graduated, I have the perspective to realize that attending Harvard wouldn't have made me happier. If anything, I could have ended up in a worse place than I am (just based on chance), and the debt would have have definitely taken its mental toll and strained my marriage.

You're not an idiot, OP. I went through the same lambasting you did when I posted similar threads four years ago. There's just a lot of salty people online.

Edit: By the way, I by all accounts had an even bigger incentive to turn down my full ride. I had been given a $33k grant by Harvard for my 1L year, and I was interested in legal academia, so Harvard was a very tantalizing choice. Meanwhile, today I'm debt-free, working in a "unicorn" PI fellowship in my field of interest, have federal clerkship interviews lined up despite mediocre grades, and my first law review article I wrote just got an offer for publication by a T25 flagship. I don't say this stuff to humblebrag, but only to point out that things will work out. You don't need a Harvard or Yale degree to achieve the success you want; that's just 0L thinking. The CCN schools are all fantastic and will open the door to any opportunity you desire if you put in the effort.

[Anonymous User]

I confronted a similar decision to yours, OP: attend Harvard/Stanford at full price or take a full-tuition scholarship at another T14. After much handwringing, I did the latter. I don't think it's had any impact on my career; I was still able to clerk for a federal appellate judge, and I still landed a job at a preftigious boutique working on high-level matters with people from Harvard, Yale, etc.

$300k of non-dischargeable debt is no joke. Plus there's a non-zero chance that you will hate Yale. I have two close friends from college who went to Yale for law school. Neither of them enjoyed the experience. I even know of someone (from clerking) who was belittled by her big-name Yale professor--in front of her entire small section--for having attended a public undergrad.

Unless you're really, really set on legal academia--which would be an unrealistic aspiration at this point anyway--I'd take the money.

P.S. I'm extremely skeptical that a hypothetical law firm in the midst of a hypothetical recession would give a shit about where you went to law school. It's all about the quality and quantity of your work at that point.

[Anonymous User]

I confronted a similar decision to yours, OP: attend Harvard/Stanford at full price or take a full-tuition scholarship at another T14. After much handwringing, I did the latter. I don't think it's had any impact on my career; I was still able to clerk for a federal appellate judge, and I still landed a job at a preftigious boutique working on high-level matters with people from Harvard, Yale, etc.

$300k of non-dischargeable debt is no joke. Plus there's a non-zero chance that you will hate Yale. I have two close friends from college who went to Yale for law school. Neither of them enjoyed the experience. I even know of someone (from clerking) who was belittled by her big-name Yale professor--in front of her entire small section--for having attended a public undergrad.

Unless you're really, really set on legal academia--which would be an unrealistic aspiration at this point anyway--I'd take the money.

P.S. I'm extremely skeptical that a hypothetical law firm in the midst of a hypothetical recession would give a shit about where you went to law school. It's all about the quality and quantity of your work at that point.

Lol is this Akhil Amar or is there another famous YLS prof who does this

[Anonymous User]

im a penn grad and the managing partner just came into my office, tore my degree off the wall and told me to get the fuck out

[Anonymous User]

Edit: forgot to answer OP's original question. I would take CCN full ride over all of HYS if ROI was my only concern. But unlike many others itt, I think the choice largely comes down to your personal circumstances and taking a full ride over YLS is not necessarily the best option.

Wanted to make a case for HLS as well depending on what type of outcome / field you are looking for.

If you are looking purely for the best outcome in law within the US, Y/S would probably give you a very slight leg up compared to H. If you want to go into business, politics or international (and maybe even pursue corporate law in the US) H probably confers a very minor advantage. I have probably seen more HLS graduates in HF/PE/BB IB/MBB (and possibly as unicorn founders) than YSCCN combined.

There might even be fields / places where HLS would confer a meaningful advantage over Y/S. I once met a Korean senior partner (and a major rainmaker) at a V10 and his whole team was HLS - he told us that he landed one of the biggest Korean conglomerates because Koreans loved HLS and those families are all trying to send their kids to Harvard. If you look at where the children of the most important political / business families in Asia have gone to undergrad on LinkedIn, 75% of them probably went to Harvard College. Of course, in a lot of countries, HLS is probably living off the halo of Harvard College. I used South Korea as the example because according to my Korean classmates, HLS carried its own weight independent of Harvard College over there (which isn't necessarily the case in places like China or India - but still, Harvard College is a very strong brand to be associated).

Of course, whatever relative advantage each of HYS has over the other two would be so miniscule that it by-and-far depends on the individual. I.e. there shouldn't be any opportunity you won't get from HLS that you would at Y/S and vice versa. I also wouldn't say that Y is stronger than S in California even though there are more YLS alums on the California Supreme Court (although it's a pretty embarrassing record for SLS I presume). The true disadvantage of H is the large number of mediocre students as a function of its size versus Y/S so it is much harder to stand out from the mushy middle at H. However, you are not compelled to pursue elite defence-side corporate litigation or big fed lit / appeal (both of which are still possible for a median student at HLS even if probably slightly easier for medians at Y/S) and there are many fields where HLS's size and reach are good things if you find a way to take advantage of them.

[CanadianWolf]

OP's question concerned Yale at sticker ($300,000) versus CCN for free.

One word answer: Recession.

Curious as to how many admitted to Yale Law School without at least one full tuition scholarship to a T-14 or T-10.

Curious as to how many Yale Law students pay full retail price.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

OP's question concerned Yale at sticker ($300,000) versus CCN for free.

One word answer: Recession.

Curious as to how many admitted to Yale Law School without at least one full tuition scholarship to a T-14 or T-10.

Curious as to how many Yale Law students pay full retail price.

The last question has a definite answer: 27%, per their 509. And given their scholarships, that's largely the families who can afford it. So the $135k average debt at graduation is lower than their peers. (Why it's still that high with a school that rich remains a mystery.)

[Anonymous User]

I didn’t get into HYS but got a full ride from CCN. Was meh in law school (very middle of the pack) and ended up at one of WLKR/CSM. Paid off my living loans in one year. If the end goal is biglaw, there’s no question that CCN is the better choice.

"WLKR/CSM" reminds me of the old "Yale/Columbia" meme from many years ago on this forum. (Interestingly, this thread is also about Yale/Columbia.)