Does Y @ sticker ever make sense over CCN full rides for maximizing ROI? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I've pored over a multitude of threads espousing the value of Y over CCN for "unicorn" PI, some BigFed, etc. however, what advantages, if any, does Y provide over CCN for a career in the private sector? Ideally, prestigious biglaw (not NYC) -> prestigious in-house.

Assuming Yale is sticker (~300k) and full-rides at any of CCN.

What I'm thinking is if another recession hits like 2008, the Yalies may be the last to be fired/first to be hired over anyone from CCN. Plus, maybe qualifying for in-house jobs you don't necessarily have the experience for but the pedigree gets you a shot?

Am I an idiot?

(anon so I am not outed to adcomms based on post history)

[Anonymous User]

Don't be an idiot. Take the money and run.

[Robot]

…yes, you are an idiot. No offense, but the idea that firms would fire their Columbia grads before their Yale grads because the latter went to Yale is something only a 0L could think. Even if a firm were to begin the layoffs with associates with the weakest pedigrees—which, to be clear, would be insane—grades would matter much more than school among the T6s.

[Anonymous User]

…yes, you are an idiot. No offense, but the idea that firms would fire their Columbia grads before their Yale grads because the latter went to Yale is something only a 0L could think. Even if a firm were to begin the layoffs with associates with the weakest pedigrees—which, to be clear, would be insane—grades would matter much more than school among the T6s.

but then the yale guy/gal would have an easier time getting another job, yes?

[ExpOriental]

Given your apparent fixation on prestige, just go to Yale. You will always regret not going, and telling people "I got into Yale but took a full ride at Columbia instead" isn't going to scratch the same itch.

Oh, and yes, you are an idiot.

[blair.waldorf]

…yes, you are an idiot. No offense, but the idea that firms would fire their Columbia grads before their Yale grads because the latter went to Yale is something only a 0L could think. Even if a firm were to begin the layoffs with associates with the weakest pedigrees—which, to be clear, would be insane—grades would matter much more than school among the T6s.

I have heard of this happening before. I don't think Yale versus Columbia would move the needle, but Yale versus a TT might.

[Anonymous User]

If it helps I'm a 3L at CLS who took a Hammy over Yale and w/r/t to clerkships, it was prolly a mistake but financially it was incredibly liberating. If you're going for feeder clerkships, it's going to be wayyyy easier from Y than CLS with great grades.

[Anonymous User]

Y and CCN are basically interchangeable with respect to most career outcomes -- though it sounds like you are most interested in tippy-top positions where Y might carry a slight edge. I could see a rationale for choosing Yale at sticker if you/your family has a net worth >$10M and wouldn't miss a few hundred thousand dollars.

[Anonymous User]

I've pored over a multitude of threads espousing the value of Y over CCN for "unicorn" PI, some BigFed, etc. however, what advantages, if any, does Y provide over CCN for a career in the private sector? Ideally, prestigious biglaw (not NYC) -> prestigious in-house.

Assuming Yale is sticker (~300k) and full-rides at any of CCN.

What I'm thinking is if another recession hits like 2008, the Yalies may be the last to be fired/first to be hired over anyone from CCN. Plus, maybe qualifying for in-house jobs you don't necessarily have the experience for but the pedigree gets you a shot?

Am I an idiot?

(anon so I am not outed to adcomms based on post history)

Some of the previous posters were too harsh. You're not an idiot. That said, Yale over CCN makes no sense financially. Note that I'm not arguing Yale never has a positive ROI. Its value could exceed sticker for the handful of students at the very top and very bottom of the class. At the very top, it gets many more SCOTUS clerks. At the bottom, it protects against striking out of biglaw. Either result could arguably be worth $300k+. However, we're talking about <10% of the class. For everyone else, Yale's marginal ROI is close to $0. Probability weighting these outcomes indicates Yale may be worth $30k more than CCN, not $300k.

[Anonymous User]

Nice offers! Don’t think it’s dumb to wonder given Yale prestige. Am a 6th year thats been pretty involved in recruiting at some of those white shoe shops (think DPW, CSM, S&C) and don’t think Yale provides any advantage for garden variety BigLaw. If you’re dead set on clerking, academia or AUSA then Yale will help. Smaller class and culture of faculty making an effort to groom students. And ofc prestige (and its cumulative effect re Yale network).

But do I think that’s worth 300K of loans? Nope. You can achieve all those things from CCN - especially Chicago (even more so if you’re a conservative Fed Soc type).

As someone who just finished paying off loans, I’d live in Chicago/NY over borrowing 300K to live in New Haven any day.

[Anonymous User]

I cannot emphasize how insane it would be to take Yale at sticker over a full ride at CCN. It would be insane. The only reason I would even contemplate doing this would be if you were dead set on doing academia--and you should be absolutely definite about that desire if you're letting that make the decision for you. Even then, Chicago in particular does quite well as far as academic placement for its top performers. You will be doing your finances such a disservice to pay out of pocket for law school when you could go to such phenomenal schools (CCN) without paying a penny.

Also, regarding your argument about recession protection, the only scenario where I could see this mattering would be an extremely time-dependent situation where you are brought into a firm and within your first 12 months there's a massive downturn. Yes, then theoretically they might use the e.g., Yale vs. NYU distinction as a sorting mechanism. But everything beyond that first 12 month "getting to know you" period will turn on your performance and reputation not on where you went to law school.

Getting a full ride to CCN is extremely special. I'd strongly encourage you to consider it.

[Anonymous User]

If you’re dead set on clerking, academia or AUSA then Yale will help.

^I’m mostly agreeing with everything this poster said, and this is really nitpicking, but I don’t think AUSA should be lumped in there with clerking and academia. I just cannot conceive of Yale carrying greater weight than CCN when getting the job will depend more on a candidate’s post grad experience anyway, and I don’t think a Yale degree is remotely required to get the kinds of jobs that feed into USAOs. (This is *especially* the case for USAOs other than SDNY/EDNY/NDCA/CDCA/EDVA, which actually hire people from a pretty wide range of backgrounds, but even at the top offices I don’t think a Yale degree adds anything material.)

Like, maybe if you’re talking about the SG’s office or other very elite main justice gigs, but not USAOs particularly.

(Yale probably does help a little for clerking. I’m convinced that its dominance in academia is more self-selection than anything else, though if you are hellbent on academia and believe that you will succeed better with the culture/faculty/student body at Yale, that’s sort of justifiable to me. You absolutely can get academia from CCN, to the extent anyone can get academia, which requires publishing in good law reviews rather than a specific school.)

I think economically there’s almost no reason to do Yale at sticker over CCN with money. If I wanted biglaw I’d definitely go CCN with money. But it would be tempting to take Y if I were hellbent on academia or maybe the tip toppiest of PI (though I think N with money would be hard to pass up. Except for the living in NYC part, for me, not my thing), especially given its excellent LRAP.

Also, if I thought I would work in a job covered by PSLF, I’d probably be more comfortable taking on debt than if I wanted biglaw. Biglaw usually means paying off all your debt, and since you probably want biglaw at least in part for the money, minimize that debt. If you were comparing schools with radically different biglaw outcomes, that would be one thing, but you’re not.

[Anonymous User]

Personally I think it’s insane, but Yale is filled with people who made the same choice.

If you’re conservative and don’t mind your classmates trying to get you fired/protesting your existence, it’s a better decision since feeder clerkships become much easier to get.

[Robot]

To be clear, my “idiot” judgment was mostly specific to OP wanting to do transactional biglaw, then in-house. If you just want to use loan forgiveness to do public interest, or are absolutely dead-set on academia come what may, it would be a different calculus. (Though I think I’ve seen Leiter data showing YLS doesn’t even overperform for academia when you adjust for its abnormally high number of students who go on the academic market, and Chicago specifically is comparable to YLS for non-SCOTUS clerkships and elite lit.)

[Anonymous User]

I took a maxed-need-based assistance at HLS over a full ride at CCN. Financially it definitely wasn’t worth it, but at least it was a closer call than sticker at Yale and full ride at CCN.

I would do it again, though, because I’m vain and would have always wished I’d gone to Harvard. I also was afraid I would suck at law school so thought the fact I could finish bottom of class and still get a job and my grades would be more opaque was worth 100k of debt to me. Not financially sound, but honest assessment. So the like 100k in debt was worth it to me at the time, and I’d prob do it again, but eyes wide open it was bad financial decision making certainly. In corporate biglaw, I would think CCN probably has an advantage over Yale if anything (Yalies are seen as weird striver types by some in the generic shops, even if people don’t openly admit this to them, and there’s just less of an alum base overall).

But not an absolutely insane question from a 0L perspective. But definitely had a very clear unambiguous answer re whether it makes financial sense.

[Jchance]

If you absolutely know you want academia and money is no object (generation wealth).

[Anonymous User]

I didn’t get into HYS but got a full ride from CCN. Was meh in law school (very middle of the pack) and ended up at one of WLKR/CSM. Paid off my living loans in one year. If the end goal is biglaw, there’s no question that CCN is the better choice.

[ExpOriental]

I didn’t get into HYS but got a full ride from CCN. Was meh in law school (very middle of the pack) and ended up at one of WLKR/CSM. Paid off my living loans in one year. If the end goal is biglaw, there’s no question that CCN is the better choice.

lmao

[Anonymous User]

I didn’t get into HYS but got a full ride from CCN. Was meh in law school (very middle of the pack) and ended up at one of WLKR/CSM. Paid off my living loans in one year. If the end goal is biglaw, there’s no question that CCN is the better choice.

you could've just said cravath

[Anonymous User]

Pretty sure my previous firm fired a YLS junior because they were a bit insufferable about their degree and felt they were above menial junior tasks. This was not a firm that routinely fired juniors. It sounds like you're heading down this path of "YLS is amazing and everything will be handed to me on a silver platter" but if you can try to disabuse yourself of that notion, you'll be a lot better off after you graduate.

[Anonymous User]

There is literally zero financial reason to go to Yale if you want BL. It confers zero advantages, even at tippy-top firms like Wachtell.

If you want to go to Yale, go to Yale. But I can assure you that starting a BL career with no debt is really the only play unless you are already extremely wealthy. Investing money ASAP pays off big time over your career.

[jsnow212]

Taking the CCN scholarship is the right move here. You're not an idiot for thinking about it (since, if there is a single thing you would seriously consider over CCN full-ride, it's Y). But, like everyone said, it's the right move.

[malibustacy]

OP very likely has offers from none of these schools, and we're getting worked up over some 0L fantasy.

See what Davis Polk is doing to us?

[Anonymous User]

The answer to OP's question just depends on what OP means by ROI. Yale will, in the long run, open more doors for you than CCN. That's just a fact. Lawyers (especially very on-the-internet lawyers that post a lot on TLS) sometimes get myopic about the reality of the real world, networking, branding, and the value of optionality. And you've got time to pay off debt.

But, yes the conventional wisdom on this site and this thread is correct that IF you want to go into traditional Big Law, then take the money at CCN. Just know what down-the-road marginal possibilities you are giving up when you do that.

[JiveTurkey]

OP very likely has offers from none of these schools, and we're getting worked up over some 0L fantasy.

See what Davis Polk is doing to us?

Yeah I sort of get that impression based on the language of the post as well