When did you start to hate big law? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Outside of the pay, is the job otherwise really that intolerable?

I'm very green. Have a vision in my head that I'll graduate from law school and as I start big law, yes sure the hours will suck. However I envision myself in an office in the best city in the world. Working on high profile matters. Listening to podcasts, doing work, eating food. Not having to worry about money for the first time in my life. I think to myself it can't be that bad but TLS seems to disagree at every turn.

So I'm genuinely interested: when did big law start to suck for you?

[The Lsat Airbender]

First time your weekend gets blown up, you'll laugh it off, maybe even take a bit of perverse pride in it.

Second or third time, you'll start to hate the job and seriously contemplate quitting. This happens to almost everyone sometime in the first year.

[hangtime813]

Many times the biglaw environment is toxic due to the people, deadlines, demands, etc. The money, prestige, offices, food, etc., all lose their luster after spending all night and day working in a rough environment.

[RedNewJersey]

***
Have a vision in my head that I'll graduate from law school and as I start big law, yes sure the hours will suck. However I envision myself in an office in the best city in the world. Working on high profile matters. Listening to podcasts, doing work, eating food. ...

This made me laugh. All the things I can't have anywhere else--like money, a premier city, and podcasts!

Seriously though, it's just the time commitment and unpredictability. I would actually like my job a lot if it were 40-50 hours per week on a set schedule. It gets you after a year or two when you realize you are not just "putting off" your hobbies or friends or activities until next weekend because you're "so busy this week"--this is your life. You are the guy who doesn't do anything except work and is tired and stressed all the time. That's you now.

[Anonymous User]

Many times the biglaw environment is toxic due to the people, deadlines, demands, etc. The money, prestige, offices, food, etc., all lose their luster after spending all night and day working in a rough environment.

This. I too had had the same mindset as OP, i.e. I'll be living life on some type of max setting where I'm working on "high profile cases," hitting the gym every day, in the greatest city in the world, making cash, going to amazing restaurants, etc.

But the fatigue started setting in for me around the end of year two from the constant grind. It is really easy to say "yes sure the hours will suck" like it is some minor inconvenience that you grow accustomed to, like a door that squeaks when it opens or occasional train delays on the subway. But it is so persistent and pervasive, after years it grows into something much more nefarious. As others have said, the first few weekends that get blown up you laugh it off, but it starts to become routine, and you realize you're tied to your phone, that you can't enjoy the restaurants and the gym and the podcasts because they are always under threat of work demands, or there is always the overarching feeling that your leisure time is limited because work is waiting, or that the more time you spend not working the harder your life is going to be once you get back to work. You'll learn to resign yourself to the "sorry I know its [Friday night, Easter, Superbowl Sunday] but can you do this asap..." emails that are 100% coming, and think about the purpose of life when all you do is work.

And here is another pro-tip, 95% of the work isn't "sexy". Even if the matter itself is "high profile," this isn't like an episode of Suits where great looking people in ten thousand dollar suits wrap up cases and deals in an hour in some thrilling and eloquent dialogue. You are in front of a computer screen for 70 hours a week, checking commas, proofreading the same documents over and over again, agonizing over things that feel insignificant.

All that being said, the money is nice and the knowledge you gain from experience is undeniable. I came from a lower middle class family where money for groceries, rent, etc was often an issue. There is a comfort in knowing you can swipe your credit card and not think twice.

[nealric]

I never got to the point of hating biglaw, but after some soul searching when I needed to relocate at the end of year 3, I decided it wasn't what I wanted long term. My practice area didn't have too many firedrills or unexpected weekend blowups- it was just a grind.

[Anonymous User]

Outside of the pay, is the job otherwise really that intolerable?

I'm very green. Have a vision in my head that I'll graduate from law school and as I start big law, yes sure the hours will suck. However I envision myself in an office in the best city in the world. Working on high profile matters. Listening to podcasts, doing work, eating food. Not having to worry about money for the first time in my life. I think to myself it can't be that bad but TLS seems to disagree at every turn.

So I'm genuinely interested: when did big law start to suck for you?

I will give one piece of advise now I'm more than two years in. You shouldn't go in thinking the hours won't suck. They can suck more than you can even realize. It's not hours on end doing fun, engaging stuff. It's basically being somebody's bitch for 10+ hours to do rote work which makes you wonder why you even had to go to law school in the first place.

However, also don't make it worse than it is. One struggle of biglaw is that people can't give themselves a break. They feel guilty they're not doing work when it's a slow time. They constantly seek out more to do because they feel they might lose their job otherwise or won't meet their hours. I, by all accounts, have had a relatively easy time in biglaw compared to many of my peers. But large contingents of my time I didn't want to enjoy my life, because I had drilled in me all of law school that "the work can come at any moment, you better be prepared!" So often time I just sat at my desk, browsing the Internet on the off-chance something would come in.

It took me a while to be at peace with this fact that, whilst true, also means that the slow period could be several months. And if you don't protect you free time and do the things you want to do in that time, nobody else will do it for you. And when that busy time inevitably hits you'll at least be able to say "It's okay, I had a great time these last three weeks. I didn't waste it at my desk waiting for work."

[Anonymous User]

when you start setting your alarm to wake up at 3am (or earlier) in order to get all the work done. It's the unreasonable deadlines that kill.

[Anonymous User]

When I had a kid.

[legalpotato]

I liked it for the first year +. Then as a 2nd year I had 4 300 hour months in a row and that is what did me in. I think I would have lasted a bit longer if not for that streak.

[Anonymous User]

Outside of the pay, is the job otherwise really that intolerable?

I'm very green. Have a vision in my head that I'll graduate from law school and as I start big law, yes sure the hours will suck. However I envision myself in an office in the best city in the world. Working on high profile matters. Listening to podcasts, doing work, eating food. Not having to worry about money for the first time in my life. I think to myself it can't be that bad but TLS seems to disagree at every turn.

So I'm genuinely interested: when did big law start to suck for you?

To give a different perspective - not everyone hates it. I certainly do not. I get paid A LOT of money to sit around answering emails. As someone who came from a household where money was always a concern and stressed the shit out of my parents, it's kind of a joke to me that people find this stressful. The worst that can happen is you get yelled at. Even that is extremely rare at my firm. That's nothing compared to the stress and hours of wondering whether you'll be able to make a mortgage payment this month.

The complaints everyone has are real - it is a lot of hours and it does blow up plans unpredictably at times. However, it gets more predictable and you'll learn to not make plans on weekends where you know things are going to be insane.

Edit: Also, to give some unsolicited advice - you have to be a morning person. If you're not one, become one. I know a lot of people will say that's bullshit, people have different habits/nightowls exist, etc. etc. The only time that is truly yours is early morning. 9am-midnight the job owns you. So if you're waking up at 8:30-9:30 and going to bed at 1am, then you'll feel like you're always on the clock. If you can manage to wake up at 6am, you'll get solid "me-time" every day. You can use that time to run errands, cook, workout, etc. and it's pretty much always undisturbed. It'll go a long way to your mental health and keeping you relaxed.

[Definitely Not North]

Based on your reaction to getting the offer, this is probably the best thing that could have ever happened to you. I encourage you to enjoy the summer and take accept their offer as nothing in the world will cure you of your prestige obsession quicker than some time at S&C.

During orientation, they'll give you an S&C shoulderbag and you'll wear it with the S&C logo facing outward so any other commuters in the know can see it and you'll just know that they're either impressed or envious. And that will make you happy and proud. And then you'll try to figure out the best way to ensure that you're sworn in as soon as possible after receiving your bar results because then you'll get the box full of business cards that say "Sullivan & Cromwell LLP" with your actual name underneath. You'll be giddy at the thought of casually passing one (mid-conversation) to some acquaintance from undergrad you've lost touch with.

You'll start working and you'll notice that there are an awful lot of "Farewell" emails and someone will tell you that the farewell emails can only contain 4 names at a time per firm policy because the partners decided sometime in 2004 that emails indicating 6 or 7 people were leaving the firm in a two week period might cause some unhelpful whispering. You'll talk to a midlevel associate who is super-psyched to work at S&C and you'll find out that he (not a lot of shes) lateralled from some firm that frankly you would never have considered working for (too TTT for you). When you get back to your office, this will trouble you a bit, you'll wonder if your own escutcheon is being blemished by the presence of this type of person (i.e., non-elite) at your S&C. But that feeling will pass as you'll find plenty of other like-minded first years who equally relish the prestige as you you head for a drink at Ulysses (shoulderbag logo facing outward).

Then you'll get staffed on your first big deal and you'll work late night after late night and then on the weekend and on to the next weekend and then on to the weekend when you had planned to go to a friend's wedding. And you won't go because the work has to get done and you have dues to pay (or so you'll be told). You'll get a little bit upset about this turn of events, but the arrival of those business cards will soften the blow.

You'll meet more and more laterals from firms that you would never work for (some you've never even heard of). You'll note in the farewell emails that some of the junior and midlevel associates leaving S&C are going to those very same firms. Survival of the fittest you'll say. But late at night, when the air conditioning clicks down from a barely perceptible hissing sound to complete silence, these things will bother you. But you'll tell yourself you're just tired and frustrated and anyway you have work to do.

You'll have lunch with Rodge and he'll tell you that business is good and that he's listening to associates' concerns about quality of life issues. You'll notice that some of the senior associates visibly roll their eyes at each other when this comes up, but you won't mind that much because, really, what other firm's managing partner regulalry has lunch with associates to hear their concerns (and takes notes!)

A few months will pass, a few marathon deals will happen, you'll have to re-schedule a vacation but you'll tell yourself that that is to be expected.

About a year in, a couple of your classmates will crack and start talking about how much the job sucks. They'll very likely have gone to Yale Law School. You'll joke that they couldn't hack it when they leave the firm for a clerkship, or an academic position or to go to a firm in another city.

Things will go on in this pattern and you'll notice the fact that you're working a lot harder than your friends who went to "peer" firms. At first you'll be proud of this and brag about it, but after a while you'll find yourself downplaying it. At least when you have the time to get out and socialize with your law school friends.

Something will happen: a partner will scream at you, a senior associate gunning for partner will blame you for her mistake, the partner will tell you that the trip to Europe your spouse meticulously planned just won't be able to happen (he'll be really sorry and will tell you a funny story about the exotic vacation he missed or cut short). Doesn't matter what, but you'll get really pissed and you'll start to take some of the 4 or 5 calls from headhunters that you'll receive every day at that point (vultures spell blood). They'll give you the names of firms that you laughed on in the days when you posted on the TLS board, but you'll find yourself looking into them. The headhunter will encourage to just listen to their offer and you'll consider doing so. But you won't leave because then you'd have to give up your business cards. And stop wearing the shoulder bag. And the bonus is only x months away so you'll start thinking about it then.

Until one day you won't be able to take it any more and you'll find yourself arranging to meet with people from a lightly regarded firm for a position in their New York office. And you'll worry that the TLS crowd will see you.

And you don't believe any of this will happen, but I suggest you print this out and keep it in the top desk of your drawer so late at night when you're feeling sorry for yourself, you can add to the list of reasons to be miserable this fact: someone told you this was going to happen and you thought that person was crazy.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Wow. Thank you all for the very candid replies. A few of you pointed out in so many words that I'm being naive. I think you're probably right. I definitely don't expect big law to be like "Suits" (to my credit I've never watched it) but I do absolutely have this rosy (flawed) picture of how the money I'll make will somehow just make all of the downsides easy to deal with. This comes from my having grown up always having to wonder if I'll have to skip my next meal. I think for that reason I'm underestimating the downsides of the big law grind. I appreciate the advice and perspectives here and they are serving as a reality check.

[Anonymous User]

OP here again. Holy shit. The S&C story by thesealocust. It's art. And it's terrifying.

[Anonymous User]

OP here again. Holy shit. The S&C story by thesealocust. It's art. The And it's terrifying.

Still can't believe that TheSeaLocust had the time to study enough to rank #1 at UVA in between his constant shitposting back in the day

[dabigchina]

On my second day, when the asshole partner pulled me out of training, forced me to do an an all-nighter, and then yelled at me because my work product wasn't good enough.

Fun times.

[Anonymous User]

On the one year anniversary of my first day I got coffee with an associate from the intake before me (so it probably would have been around their second anniversary) and I asked if they knew at one year that it obviously wasn't going to work out in biglaw. We agreed that it was painfully obvious by that point, and then you're just riding it out for money/debt, path dependency, fear of the unknown, etc.

[nealric]

OP here again. Holy shit. The S&C story by thesealocust. It's art. The And it's terrifying.

Still can't believe that TheSeaLocust had the time to study enough to rank #1 at UVA in between his constant shitposting back in the day

I don't think TheSeaLocust wrote it. That S&C post actually dates back to circa 2006/7 on the xoxohth forum (when it actually had some law content and wasn't just a bunch of racist/incel content and weird flame wars).

[nealric]

Edit: Also, to give some unsolicited advice - you have to be a morning person. If you're not one, become one. I know a lot of people will say that's bullshit, people have different habits/nightowls exist, etc. etc. The only time that is truly yours is early morning. 9am-midnight the job owns you. So if you're waking up at 8:30-9:30 and going to bed at 1am, then you'll feel like you're always on the clock. If you can manage to wake up at 6am, you'll get solid "me-time" every day. You can use that time to run errands, cook, workout, etc. and it's pretty much always undisturbed. It'll go a long way to your mental health and keeping you relaxed.

Sleep deprivation is a big problem in biglaw. Unless you are one of those rare birds that can swing 5 hours of sleep a night, waking up at 6am after going to bed at 1 because you were working until midnight isn't really an option.

[tlsguy2020]

doing work

I don't hate biglaw. But frankly, no matter how high-profile the matter, much of the work is just really boring. Some of my longest days aren't those where I'm slammed. But just where I'm too bored to focus properly.

[Anonymous User]

Edit: Also, to give some unsolicited advice - you have to be a morning person. If you're not one, become one. I know a lot of people will say that's bullshit, people have different habits/nightowls exist, etc. etc. The only time that is truly yours is early morning. 9am-midnight the job owns you. So if you're waking up at 8:30-9:30 and going to bed at 1am, then you'll feel like you're always on the clock. If you can manage to wake up at 6am, you'll get solid "me-time" every day. You can use that time to run errands, cook, workout, etc. and it's pretty much always undisturbed. It'll go a long way to your mental health and keeping you relaxed.

Sleep deprivation is a big problem in biglaw. Unless you are one of those rare birds that can swing 5 hours of sleep a night, waking up at 6am after going to bed at 1 because you were working until midnight isn't really an option.

OP of that comment - sorry, I can totally understand reading my post as meaning "learn to operate on 5 hours of sleep". That's not what I meant. I meant that sleep however many hours as you can, and if you have the ability to do so, it's better to wake up early than to stay up late. My first year, I got into a habit of finishing up around 9-10pm, and then staying up until 1 or 2am because that was the only "me-time" I got. It was significantly better for me to shift my schedule to sleep early and wake up early to get that me-time.

Personally, I rarely work past 10pm when we don't have a deadline at this point, I rather just sleep early and work early because I find that late night working, after putting in a 10 hour day already, is extremely inefficient. Agreed that lack of sleep is an issue in biglaw and most of us probably do need more sleep than we get anyway.

[Anonymous User]

I hated it two weeks in, and I came from a bg where the first year salary (160K at the time) was literally life changing money. I told myself that my parents, extended family, etc. all worked way harder to have less and worry about money constantly. My worry about money became less about paying bills and more about figuring out how I could jump ship and still make $$$ - I was still obsessed with achieving the security that the money represented to me bc I understood biglaw was temporary. No one in my personal life really understood the way I didn't have set working hours or the ability to say no to more work once I was staffed on something. End result: I still hated it, and felt guilty for hating it because it was so "easy" compared to many jobs.

If you can genuinely not give a shit about how you're perceived and start setting boundaries early, it's a better job. Unfortunately I was not that person - on a lean team I always felt that if I wasn't giving 200% it was one of my friends who was being asked to do 300%. This is a toxic mentality, but it's very common in biglaw IMO.

I needed therapy, but all the time that I wasn't working I was using to desperately hang on to my relationships, catch up on sleep, and eventually, job searching.

The good news is, not everyone feels this way about the job. But I did, and I ended up leaving biglaw very early in my third year to go in-house where I'm *much* happier (still have personal stuff to work on re: my mentality around money and work but I suspect that not uncommon for people from low-income backgrounds).

[Anonymous User]

To provide an alternate point of view, I HATED biglaw starting about 6 months in through about the 18 month mark (and this was before the current insanity so my hours were more reasonable back then). Wanted to leave and was exploring what I could do instead. I'm now a very busy midlevel working 500 more hours/year than I did back then and enjoy my job most days. Of course there are rough patches, but the huge paychecks take care of those. The rest of the time it is pretty interesting work with people I like.

I'm in a very small group in a specialized corporate practice so YMMV if in general PE/M&A or if you work with assholes.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

However I envision myself in an office in the best city in the world.

Did it ever occur to you that on a personal level, it won't really matter where you are if you spend every waking moment in a skyscraper?

I had a lot of coworkers who moved to NYC thinking they'd leave the office and head straight to Knicks games and the opera and Paraguayan-Armenian fusion restaurants. Most nights, they're so physically and mentally exhausted that all they wanted to do was lie on the couch and put some background Netflix on while they passed out praying for a meteor or First Republic to go bankrupt. They paid a premium for apartments on Broadway and they might as well have been in some farmhouse in a cornfield.

[Anonymous User]

Around 3 months into my first year.