Business Class / Private Forum

[Anonymous User]

Shamelessly interested in whether anyone has stories from big law (or in-house) in which they’ve had the privilege of flying business/first or perhaps even private? Or know of partners who do?

Also generally curious about travel policies for the top firms - I vaguely recall someone mentioning to me that their V10 springs for business on redeye flights.

[Anonymous User]

Shamelessly interested in whether anyone has stories from big law (or in-house) in which they’ve had the privilege of flying business/first or perhaps even private? Or know of partners who do?

Also generally curious about travel policies for the top firms - I vaguely recall someone mentioning to me that their V10 springs for business on redeye flights.

V10, senior associate.

I mean, I've occasionally gotten upgrades because of my airline status. My firm pays for business class for international travel (that seems pretty standard), so I've taken advantage of that a (very small handful) of times. A handful of times first class has been the only seat available on a flight, so I was able to get it. I've paid the upgrade fee a handful of times (I always pay for at least the extra legroom out of pocket, I just can't deal with flying without that, because I'm tall).

As far as I can tell, the firm doesn't cover first class for partners but, of course, a lot of partners always fly first because that's where they're at financially. A lot of partners travel so frequently that they are at a level of frequent flyer status that they regularly get upgraded.

Biglaw partners (outside of the true kings of the hill rainmakers) don't make enough money to fly private But there have been a handful of "fly back home from the negotiation on the client's corporate jet" situations with partners that I'm aware of.

This is all pre-COVID of course. Far and away the best part of COVID has been not having to travel for work, at least to me. Business travel sucks. Don't glamorize it. It is the sheer worst.

[Anonymous User]

Shamelessly interested in whether anyone has stories from big law (or in-house) in which they’ve had the privilege of flying business/first or perhaps even private? Or know of partners who do?

Also generally curious about travel policies for the top firms - I vaguely recall someone mentioning to me that their V10 springs for business on redeye flights.

V10, senior associate.

I mean, I've occasionally gotten upgrades because of my airline status. My firm pays for business class for international travel (that seems pretty standard), so I've taken advantage of that a (very small handful) of times. A handful of times first class has been the only seat available on a flight, so I was able to get it. I've paid the upgrade fee a handful of times (I always pay for at least the extra legroom out of pocket, I just can't deal with flying without that, because I'm tall).

As far as I can tell, the firm doesn't cover first class for partners but, of course, a lot of partners always fly first because that's where they're at financially. A lot of partners travel so frequently that they are at a level of frequent flyer status that they regularly get upgraded.

Biglaw partners (outside of the true kings of the hill rainmakers) don't make enough money to fly private But there have been a handful of "fly back home from the negotiation on the client's corporate jet" situations with partners that I'm aware of.

This is all pre-COVID of course. Far and away the best part of COVID has been not having to travel for work, at least to me. Business travel sucks. Don't glamorize it. It is the sheer worst.

Can I offer a slightly dif perspective? And this is coming from someone who did over 100k miles for business travel in 2019. Frequent, constant travel definitely sucks and I don't miss the grind of it. But do I find myself occasionally pining for one of those trips where you can get away from the fam for a couple days, fly business class both ways, have expensed meals with your team at good restaurants, sleep in a comfortable bed in a nice hotel? COVID has made me realize it wasn't the worst thing in the world on an occasional basis. Again, I'll take WFH over having to be at the airport every week, 100%. But having done WFH for 2 years, I could use *a* business trip and I think there are plenty more like me.

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland pays for business on redeyes and international flights. I think Williams & Connolly pays for business on all work travel.

I do miss occasional work travel now but I also think I’m being over-nostalgic, because it’s never when you want it to be, or where you want to go, and you don’t have a chance to do interesting things in the new city. All the United seats feel the same, all the Marriott restaurant chicken salads taste the same.

[Anonymous User]

Why would biglaw partners need associates to fly private? Do private equity associates fly private or is that just the BSDs? What delusional post is this? If DPW offer business and Latham does First are you picking Latham? Does your average c suite executive fly private?

[Anonymous User]

What practice groups most require traveling? Any corporate?

[Anonymous User]

Why would biglaw partners need associates to fly private? Do private equity associates fly private or is that just the BSDs? What delusional post is this? If DPW offer business and Latham does First are you picking Latham? Does your average c suite executive fly private?

Only time I’ve had experience with private was needing to go to a general meeting that was in a town that was three connections away, despite being in the south. A “BSD” partner with whom I work was musing, when looking at the NetJets holiday gift he’d been sent, that private only makes sense on domestic flights. Reasoning was that international flights are going to be long, so extra time in the airport is no big deal, but that’s not the case on shorter haul flights.

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland pays for business on redeyes and international flights. I think Williams & Connolly pays for business on all work travel.

I do miss occasional work travel now but I also think I’m being over-nostalgic, because it’s never when you want it to be, or where you want to go, and you don’t have a chance to do interesting things in the new city. All the United seats feel the same, all the Marriott restaurant chicken salads taste the same.

Correct W&C is the one firm I know of that pays business on all flights. I'm at one of the other big DC firms, and we follow the seemingly standard of business on international, coach on domestic. And I'll echo that the partners "you'd expect" to upgrade to business out of pocket do so, though I know some very wealthy but very frugal partners who would never dare.

I had some business travel in 2021 and could take it or leave it. A lot of the destinations (for litigation at least) just kinda suck. My favorite work travel is honestly NE corridor travel where you can easily hop on the Amtrak, go to cities you already know but don't always visit, see people you know, get fantastic free meals, and not feel exhausted just from the travel.

[CharlesWhoo]

What practice areas require more traveling than others? Asking because I actually love traveling and can put up with flying three times a week... Any advice?

[temp69420]

It's worth noting that upgrading to first domestically is in general not that expensive. You'll often see prices of $50-$100 per hour of flying time. For example, I used to do Chicago to San Francisco a lot and $200 to upgrade one way was typical (there's an analysis on FlyerTalk that somebody did once showing that on United about $50 per hour was the baseline across many city pairs; maybe changed post-covid, though).

If you really want to fly business/first internationally, start playing the mileage game. Just with miles from work travel and credit cards, I've had a bunch of great trips in international first (Lufthansa, ANA, Emirates, United back when they had 3-class first on the 747).

I know some people who have flown on a client's jet a lot. Where you're most likely to see it is if there are a bunch of people all going to a fourth-tier or below city (i.e. a place you've never heard of). At that point it often becomes more cost efficient for the client to fly private than the alternatives.

The point above about not flying private internationally is right. It also has to do with the insane cost of flights that long. You can get a little baby jet for domestic stuff, but overseas you need something big, which massively increases the cost. Lufthansa, for example, has a product where they'll do private connections to their international flights. I.e. fly first to Frankfurt then private to your final destination. Delta does something similar in the US.

I've actually always been surprised that more partners don't fly private. If you're pulling down $15-20M per year, you can afford it. Even if you don't want to pay for a jet, a helicopter to JFK makes a lot more sense than driving.

[Anonymous User]

WLRK pays business class for all travel.

[Anonymous User]

What practice areas require more traveling than others? Asking because I actually love traveling and can put up with flying three times a week... Any advice?

In the past I've seen white collar associates travel a lot. Whether it's to Springfield, Illinois to interview some rando client employee, or to China to see what illegal stuff exactly your client is doing in that factory, or to a bank vault in Switzerland to review documents that are not allowed to leave the country.

Even though all of those things seem like they'd have to be done in-person, I've seen WC travel drop off just as much as every other practice since Covid, so who knows.

I still know plenty of people though who are gone for 3+ weeks for trial, whether civil or WC. Most courts have returned to in-person, and there's no such thing as a remote jury trial afaik.

[Anonymous User]

I don't know what my firm's policy is, but I've always flown first or business for business travel (both international and domestic). As far as I know, it's just been up to the partners - if the engagement terms don't allow business class, the partners either write off the extra cost or work something out where the client pays for what a refundable economy ticket would be - which is often almost the same as business. Also, we have a partner who - so the stories go - did some work for a big Middle Eastern airline once long ago, so now when we buy business class on that airline it gets upgraded to first if you do it through his assistant. Don't ask; I don't know the details - I just know that I flew first on that airline once to Dubai and it was ridiculous. I actually preferred flying business back to the U.S. on a different airline, because having the chef personally introduce himself in first and having a flight attendant who probably had a total of four customers whom she waited on hand and foot was just too much; it just felt too weird compared to the more impersonal but still luxurious business class experience.

[Wanderingdrock]

What practice areas require more traveling than others? Asking because I actually love traveling and can put up with flying three times a week... Any advice?

White collar investigations, by far. As the post above says, travel has dropped a lot for all practice areas, and there is some question as to how much business travel clients will want to pay for now that we've shown we can do our jobs remotely, but travel is beginning to pick back up in this area. We lost a lot in witness interviews by not being face-to-face; we need to do site visits to see how things really work; etc.

[hdr]

Most firms won't pay for associates to fly business except on international trips, when it's the norm. Some firms like W&C are exceptions. Partners typically always fly business/first.

I've never heard of attorneys flying private except in a client's plane. On one matter I worked on, attorneys needed to travel to two different rural locations, and it was far more efficient for the client to fly the company jet directly between the two. It wasn't luxurious though.

Agree white collar can involve lots of travel but you need to be in a group that has international clients. Antitrust can also be good if the group does cartel work (many antitrust groups do not).

[nealric]

My F500 company’s travel policy is coach for domestic or non-overseas international (I.e. Mexico) and Business for overseas. I fly overseas 2-3 times a year. Makes a big difference when you need to work right off the plane.

We used to have a couple of private jets. Policy for that was a VP and above could call the jet. Typically it happened for trips where commercial service was relatively poor or flying private could cut serious time off a trip. The C-suite would sometimes take the Gulfstream to Europe but frankly I’d actually prefer a larger plane for a trip longer than 3-4 hours. Flown on it before. It’s nice, but the main benefit is just time- you cut quite a bit of travel time out when you don’t have security or waiting for departure.

For law firms, it would be pretty rare for anybody to fly private unless a client gave them a ride. Most law firms are coach for non-overseas trips. Clients tend to try to avoid paying for travel when they can avoid it.

[LBJ's Hair]

the other big advantage with private (beyond the direct flight) is it'll fly around your schedule. so if you're bouncing around on a roadshow, get delayed or want to run meeting long, etc, it's not like you're completely fucked

[Anonymous User]

I didn’t experience it, but when our billionaire client’s deposition ran long and caused all the lawyers to miss their flights, the client took everyone back home in his private jet.

Same client also used his private residences to host meetings and one atty got lost in the size of the home

[Anonymous User]

What practice areas require more traveling than others? Asking because I actually love traveling and can put up with flying three times a week... Any advice?

In the past I've seen white collar associates travel a lot. Whether it's to Springfield, Illinois to interview some rando client employee, or to China to see what illegal stuff exactly your client is doing in that factory, or to a bank vault in Switzerland to review documents that are not allowed to leave the country.

Even though all of those things seem like they'd have to be done in-person, I've seen WC travel drop off just as much as every other practice since Covid, so who knows.

I still know plenty of people though who are gone for 3+ weeks for trial, whether civil or WC. Most courts have returned to in-person, and there's no such thing as a remote jury trial afaik.

Second both these observations I.e., white collar work requires much more travel than your average biglaw group but also COVID has significantly slowed that down like for everyone else.

One more point to add: because of the extremely sensitive nature of a lot of white collar work I generally expect travel in that practice area to largely rebound once we’re through the worst of COVID.

[Anonymous User]

Why would biglaw partners need associates to fly private? Do private equity associates fly private or is that just the BSDs? What delusional post is this? If DPW offer business and Latham does First are you picking Latham? Does your average c suite executive fly private?

I know PE Associates who fly private... through jetshare programs their fund hires. I haven't met any who fly true private, though I assume there are a few rainmakers that do.

[Anonymous User]

But do I find myself occasionally pining for one of those trips where you can get away from the fam for a couple days, fly business class both ways, have expensed meals with your team at good restaurants, sleep in a comfortable bed in a nice hotel?

Counterpoint--buy an expensive, comfortable bed for your bedroom. Well worth the investment.

I got to fly private once for a work trip. It was on the client's jet for a day trip from Tulsa to Dallas for a meeting with a regulator (with the client). It absolutely ruined commercial flights for me, at least for the next couple of years. I drove my car right up next to the hangar, boarded in 3 seconds, and we were in the air 10 minutes later. We left at 9AM and were back by 3PM, with like 2 total travel hours.

[TatteredDignity]

But do I find myself occasionally pining for one of those trips where you can get away from the fam for a couple days, fly business class both ways, have expensed meals with your team at good restaurants, sleep in a comfortable bed in a nice hotel?

Counterpoint--buy an expensive, comfortable bed for your bedroom. Well worth the investment.

I got to fly private once for a work trip. It was on the client's jet for a day trip from Tulsa to Dallas for a meeting with a regulator (with the client). It absolutely ruined commercial flights for me, at least for the next couple of years. I drove my car right up next to the hangar, boarded in 3 seconds, and we were in the air 10 minutes later. We left at 9AM and were back by 3PM, with like 2 total travel hours.

accidental anon.

[Anonymous User]

I worked in corporate at a v50 firm and never heard of associates getting flown around for business reasons, except for super, super rare occasions. I can understand white collar traveling for actual interviews and stuff, but corporate there is quite literally no need in my mind. You can close a deal from your couch with a laptop and a phone.

I have heard of PE firm associates flying around, but that would be for like actual, on-site due diligence work in rural Missouri or some random town that no one enjoyed because the owners didn't have digital files and paper copies would be stored in some backrooms across 4 locations. Plus a thoroughly decent majority of PE firms mandate max business level travel since investors won't let them expense private travel as a fund expense.

[Anonymous User]

I worked on a large, life-ruining white collar matter for a few years at a V100 firm and flew to Europe 1-2x a month for a 2-3 year stretch, typically for a week or two at a time. I almost always flew business class (which is very nice) but flew first maybe four or five times. As nice as international business class is, international first is a whole different level of luxury, at least on some airlines. (For example, I flew first on Lufthansa once. They had a Porsche pick me up on the tarmac from my connecting flight, had an expedited customs process in Munich, and served Krug and caviar on my flight back to the US.)

If you are a white-collar specialist (particularly in an international-focused area like FCPA investigations), I would strongly encourage you to get smart about credit card points, hotel points, and airline miles. It can literally net you tens of thousands of dollars in cash back, free flights, hotel rooms, upgrades, and other perks. I worked with a couple of people on this matter who acted like gaming points and miles was beneath them, and they left an enormous amount of money on the table.

I have since moved into a more vanilla litigation practice, where I occasionally take short-haul flights for depositions and court hearings and such (or did before 2020, at least) but have never flown business or first.

[Anonymous User]

I worked on a large, life-ruining white collar matter for a few years at a V100 firm and flew to Europe 1-2x a month for a 2-3 year stretch, typically for a week or two at a time. I almost always flew business class (which is very nice) but flew first maybe four or five times. As nice as international business class is, international first is a whole different level of luxury, at least on some airlines. (For example, I flew first on Lufthansa once. They had a Porsche pick me up on the tarmac from my connecting flight, had an expedited customs process in Munich, and served Krug and caviar on my flight back to the US.)

If you are a white-collar specialist (particularly in an international-focused area like FCPA investigations), I would strongly encourage you to get smart about credit card points, hotel points, and airline miles. It can literally net you tens of thousands of dollars in cash back, free flights, hotel rooms, upgrades, and other perks. I worked with a couple of people on this matter who acted like gaming points and miles was beneath them, and they left an enormous amount of money on the table.

I have since moved into a more vanilla litigation practice, where I occasionally take short-haul flights for depositions and court hearings and such (or did before 2020, at least) but have never flown business or first.

Lufthansa First looks/sounds awesome. I'm in civil litigation, which of course means domestic work and therefore no business class, but from what I've seen of my friends in WC, I definitely wouldn't make the trade to do that sort of work just for the international travel - "life-ruining" sounds about right. And honestly, a depo here and for a couple nights and a 2-hour flight is fine, especially when you get to stay the extra night in town after the depo and chill before the flight the next morning, but I have not enjoyed the 2+ week trials I've had. The locations haven't exactly been glamorous, they're exhausting as hell, and just not worth the Marriott points.

And there's another area where white collar can be miserable. I know WC people who have done 10+ week trials, and maybe they've been allowed to go home to see their families over a weekend once or twice during that stretch. No thanks.