How much can your grades drop before you lose a biglaw offer? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Current 2L who did unexpectedly poorly this semester. My GPA dropped (I received a mix of Bs and B+s), and I'm now in the top 1/3 of my class at a T25.

I have a biglaw SA offer in a very small, competitive market. What are the chances that they no-offer me now? I'm currently being slotted for litigation; am I likely to be moved to a different team because of this?

Honest advice is appreciated. I'm pretty devastated right now.

ETA: I know the general advice is that you're fine so long as you don't fail, but that typically seems to address large class sizes in NYC offices. I'm worried that this doesn't hold true in small satellite offices, like the one I'll be working in.

[Anonymous User]

First, if you're worried about the firm withdrawing their offer before the beginning of the summer associateship due to one semester of low grades, I'd have to consider that highly unlikely. I don't work in a small market, but I've never heard of such a thing before, including from colleagues that went to secondary markets from my law school and phoned in 2L and 3L.

But in my opinion the biggest question is does this firm traditionally give offers to 100% of their summers?

If your firm does not traditionally 100% offer, then unfortunately I'd have to think that grades may make some difference in their consideration of which summers they will invite back full-time. I would assume, however, that grades play only a part (and I'd guess a small part) in the decision of who gets a full-time offer -- the summer's work product during the SA, the firm's financial condition, departmental allocation needs, connections made, etc., I would all expect to loom more largely in that decision. Hopefully a secondary/tertiary market person comes along in this thread to give more directly applicable advice, but at the very least remember that you have another semester here to improve your grades and a full summer to show your worth before the firm ultimately decides whether to give you a full-time offer.

In the NYC biglaw context (which is the context with which I'm most well-versed) I know many students that had their grades dip significantly across 2L and 3L and still got job offers at the end of the summer without even a mention of their falling grades. These were at NYC firms that traditionally 100% offer their classes. If your firm does traditionally give 100% offers, I wouldn't sweat the grade dip -- again, this is based on NYC biglaw experience, but in that case it takes something really egregious to get no-offered or cold-offered. If your firm traditionally gives 100% offers, I'd expect the same to hold true there.

[Anonymous User]

First, if you're worried about the firm withdrawing their offer before the beginning of the summer associateship due to one semester of low grades, I'd have to consider that highly unlikely. I don't work in a small market, but I've never heard of such a thing before, including from colleagues that went to secondary markets from my law school and phoned in 2L and 3L.

But in my opinion the biggest question is does this firm traditionally give offers to 100% of their summers?

If your firm does not traditionally 100% offer, then unfortunately I'd have to think that grades may make some difference in their consideration of which summers they will invite back full-time. I would assume, however, that grades play only a part (and I'd guess a small part) in the decision of who gets a full-time offer -- the summer's work product during the SA, the firm's financial condition, departmental allocation needs, connections made, etc., I would all expect to loom more largely in that decision. Hopefully a secondary/tertiary market person comes along in this thread to give more directly applicable advice, but at the very least remember that you have another semester here to improve your grades and a full summer to show your worth before the firm ultimately decides whether to give you a full-time offer.

In the NYC biglaw context (which is the context with which I'm most well-versed) I know many students that had their grades dip significantly across 2L and 3L and still got job offers at the end of the summer without even a mention of their falling grades. These were at NYC firms that traditionally 100% offer their classes. If your firm does traditionally give 100% offers, I wouldn't sweat the grade dip -- again, this is based on NYC biglaw experience, but in that case it takes something really egregious to get no-offered or cold-offered. If your firm traditionally gives 100% offers, I'd expect the same to hold true there.

This is really helpful, thank you. My firm does traditionally offer 100% of its summers; I guess I'm just panicking. I haven't had grades this low for all of law school, and I hadn't phoned in or anything (just had a random rough semester). I'm hoping to turn it around in Spring, but it's hard to know for sure how things will go.

Thanks again for the kindness.

[Anonymous User]

Current 2L who did unexpectedly poorly this semester. My GPA dropped (I received a mix of Bs and B+s), and I'm now in the top 1/3 of my class at a T25.

I have a biglaw SA offer in a very small, competitive market. What are the chances that they no-offer me now? I'm currently being slotted for litigation; am I likely to be moved to a different team because of this?

Honest advice is appreciated. I'm pretty devastated right now.

ETA: I know the general advice is that you're fine so long as you don't fail, but that typically seems to address large class sizes in NYC offices. I'm worried that this doesn't hold true in small satellite offices, like the one I'll be working in.

Bs and B+s would not merit being no-offered. I was in biglaw in D.C. and never heard of a summer being no-offered for a drop in 2L grades. Don't beat yourself up.

[Anonymous User]

First, if you're worried about the firm withdrawing their offer before the beginning of the summer associateship due to one semester of low grades, I'd have to consider that highly unlikely. I don't work in a small market, but I've never heard of such a thing before, including from colleagues that went to secondary markets from my law school and phoned in 2L and 3L.

But in my opinion the biggest question is does this firm traditionally give offers to 100% of their summers?

If your firm does not traditionally 100% offer, then unfortunately I'd have to think that grades may make some difference in their consideration of which summers they will invite back full-time. I would assume, however, that grades play only a part (and I'd guess a small part) in the decision of who gets a full-time offer -- the summer's work product during the SA, the firm's financial condition, departmental allocation needs, connections made, etc., I would all expect to loom more largely in that decision. Hopefully a secondary/tertiary market person comes along in this thread to give more directly applicable advice, but at the very least remember that you have another semester here to improve your grades and a full summer to show your worth before the firm ultimately decides whether to give you a full-time offer.

In the NYC biglaw context (which is the context with which I'm most well-versed) I know many students that had their grades dip significantly across 2L and 3L and still got job offers at the end of the summer without even a mention of their falling grades. These were at NYC firms that traditionally 100% offer their classes. If your firm does traditionally give 100% offers, I wouldn't sweat the grade dip -- again, this is based on NYC biglaw experience, but in that case it takes something really egregious to get no-offered or cold-offered. If your firm traditionally gives 100% offers, I'd expect the same to hold true there.

This is really helpful, thank you. My firm does traditionally offer 100% of its summers; I guess I'm just panicking. I haven't had grades this low for all of law school, and I hadn't phoned in or anything (just had a random rough semester). I'm hoping to turn it around in Spring, but it's hard to know for sure how things will go.

Thanks again for the kindness.

Happy to help. The panic is understandable — no one likes scores lower than they expected and it makes sense to assume they’d come with consequences. But if your firm 100% offers, then I feel comfortable endorsing the rumors as true: your 2L and 3L grades really do not matter. Work hard during the summer, be friendly, be eager, be excited, don’t get too drunk at the social events — this should be more than enough to secure the full-time offer at a firm that usually offers 100%.

Also, here’s a reminder to give yourself a pat on the back for your performance during the far-more-important 1L year: landing a biglaw job in a small, competitive market from a non-T14 is an accomplishment worthy of praise.

[Anonymous User]

Current 2L who did unexpectedly poorly this semester. My GPA dropped (I received a mix of Bs and B+s), and I'm now in the top 1/3 of my class at a T25.

I have a biglaw SA offer in a very small, competitive market. What are the chances that they no-offer me now? I'm currently being slotted for litigation; am I likely to be moved to a different team because of this?

Honest advice is appreciated. I'm pretty devastated right now.

ETA: I know the general advice is that you're fine so long as you don't fail, but that typically seems to address large class sizes in NYC offices. I'm worried that this doesn't hold true in small satellite offices, like the one I'll be working in.

Bs and B+s would not merit being no-offered. I was in biglaw in D.C. and never heard of a summer being no-offered for a drop in 2L grades. Don't beat yourself up.

Thank you for sharing, it's appreciated.

First, if you're worried about the firm withdrawing their offer before the beginning of the summer associateship due to one semester of low grades, I'd have to consider that highly unlikely. I don't work in a small market, but I've never heard of such a thing before, including from colleagues that went to secondary markets from my law school and phoned in 2L and 3L.

But in my opinion the biggest question is does this firm traditionally give offers to 100% of their summers?

If your firm does not traditionally 100% offer, then unfortunately I'd have to think that grades may make some difference in their consideration of which summers they will invite back full-time. I would assume, however, that grades play only a part (and I'd guess a small part) in the decision of who gets a full-time offer -- the summer's work product during the SA, the firm's financial condition, departmental allocation needs, connections made, etc., I would all expect to loom more largely in that decision. Hopefully a secondary/tertiary market person comes along in this thread to give more directly applicable advice, but at the very least remember that you have another semester here to improve your grades and a full summer to show your worth before the firm ultimately decides whether to give you a full-time offer.

In the NYC biglaw context (which is the context with which I'm most well-versed) I know many students that had their grades dip significantly across 2L and 3L and still got job offers at the end of the summer without even a mention of their falling grades. These were at NYC firms that traditionally 100% offer their classes. If your firm does traditionally give 100% offers, I wouldn't sweat the grade dip -- again, this is based on NYC biglaw experience, but in that case it takes something really egregious to get no-offered or cold-offered. If your firm traditionally gives 100% offers, I'd expect the same to hold true there.

This is really helpful, thank you. My firm does traditionally offer 100% of its summers; I guess I'm just panicking. I haven't had grades this low for all of law school, and I hadn't phoned in or anything (just had a random rough semester). I'm hoping to turn it around in Spring, but it's hard to know for sure how things will go.

Thanks again for the kindness.

Happy to help. The panic is understandable — no one likes scores lower than they expected and it makes sense to assume they’d come with consequences. But if your firm 100% offers, then I feel comfortable endorsing the rumors as true: your 2L and 3L grades really do not matter. Work hard during the summer, be friendly, be eager, be excited, don’t get too drunk at the social events — this should be more than enough to secure the full-time offer at a firm that usually offers 100%.

Also, here’s a reminder to give yourself a pat on the back for your performance during the far-more-important 1L year: landing a biglaw job in a small, competitive market from a non-T14 is an accomplishment worthy of praise.

You covered what I'm feeling exactly. Thanks for the support; it really means a lot.

[Anonymous User]

Think of it this way- hiring is REALLY expensive for firms. They need bodies.

Are your new, bad grades SO bad it suggests your earlier, good grades were a fluke? Or vice versa?

If your new grades make your earlier good grades seem like a fluke, you might be in trouble. Otherwise, you seem like a smart kid who got lazy, which they can still deal with.

[bwh8813]

Chance ares, no one will look at your grades. At least not critically. You'll have to provide a final transcript basically just to prove you graduated and likely only someone in recruiting/HR will look at it. If anything, it may have a bigger effect if looking to lateral or clerk.

[Anonymous User]

Think of it this way- hiring is REALLY expensive for firms. They need bodies.

Are your new, bad grades SO bad it suggests your earlier, good grades were a fluke? Or vice versa?

If your new grades make your earlier good grades seem like a fluke, you might be in trouble. Otherwise, you seem like a smart kid who got lazy, which they can still deal with.

I guess that's part of what I'm worried about. My 1L grades were consistent across fall and spring, but my grades this semester were a hearty drop (think As/A-s to Bs/B+s). I didn't slack off; just had a death in the family during the exam period and didn't perform at my best. I'm hoping to perform well again in 2L spring, but I'm still worried this will ruin their opinion of me. I don't want them to think I just got comfortable and gave up.

Chance ares, no one will look at your grades. At least not critically. You'll have to provide a final transcript basically just to prove you graduated and likely only someone in recruiting/HR will look at it. If anything, it may have a bigger effect if looking to lateral or clerk.

Thanks for this insight. I'm interested in clerking eventually, and I certainly want to get my grades back up to make that more possible.

[Prudent_Jurist]

If you had a death in the family during finals, OP, and someone asks about your 2L fall grades, then just tell them that you had a death in the family and didn’t perform at your best. Everyone will understand and forget about it.

[Anonymous User]

If you had a death in the family during finals, OP, and someone asks about your 2L fall grades, then just tell them that you had a death in the family and didn’t perform at your best. Everyone will understand and forget about it.

This is good to know, thank you. I had thought it was too personal or unprofessional to share.