DC Biglaw Tax Forum

[Anonymous User]

Curious about what the quality of work, hours, work culture, QOL, etc. are at the different biglaw tax groups in DC. Anyone have any intel they'd be willing to share?

[Anonymous User]

I’ve had some experience. Posting anonymous because I don’t want to put myself.

The DC tax landscape is interesting. You some groups that generate their own business and others that (to me) seem more controversy focused. Skadden is probably the largest group. The one complaint I’ve heard from Skadden is you can get siloed pretty quickly because the group is so large. Fried Frank, Jones Day, Baker, and V&E also have decent-sized groups in DC.

There are also DC tax boutiques which can offer BigLaw money (or close to it) with, arguably, better quality of life. They tend to be selective but are worth looking into if you are tax. These are Caplin & Drysde; Ivins, Phillips & Barker; and Miller & Chevalier.

Overall, it is going to depend on what you see yourself doing and where you want to go. DC is an interesting place to practice tax because you are so close to policy. You won’t only do policy but it is fun to be somewhere where tax policy is really felt. Lots of groups seem to dabble in “DC” tax work which can occasionally involve administrative and legislative lobbying. I’ve enjoyed practicing here.

[Anonymous User]

I'm at Eversheds Sutherland, and we have a decent-sized tax group in DC. QOL depends on which subgroup you are in, although this past year was incredibly busy for a lot of people. I think even the culture depends on which subgroup you are in or which partners you report to - I'm happy in my subgroup but looking at others, I'm not sure I would be as happy working here if I had to work with them. Comp appears to be market, although I think the bonus requirement is a little higher than most firms have to be bonus eligible (2050).

[Anonymous User]

Thank you both for the insights.

Skadden is probably the largest group. The one complaint I’ve heard from Skadden is you can get siloed pretty quickly because the group is so large.

That's interesting, I would have thought that a larger group would provide more opportunities to try different things as a junior. I'm not sure if I want to do transactional/planning or controversy yet, so am hoping for someplace that's good at both. Also hoping for someplace that pays market, so probably the boutiques are out.

Any firms in particular to avoid? It's hard to get a sense of things when most threads are about corporate groups.

[Anonymous User]

Worked at one of the boutique firms and know people who worked at both types of firms as well.

Controversy/litigation work and policy work is going to be more prevalent at the boutiques (although Morgan Lewis does a lot of litigation and I think Steptoe is growing out its practice based on recent hires).

I’ve heard that a some Skadden tax associates (and other biglaw tax associates) do deal work and not much else. Not fun when you choose DC over NY and end up not doing much policy work.

Based on my convos with people at the firms, Baker McKenzie is the biggest sweatshop and you should avoid going there if you have another offer.

Also, unless you’re dead set on doing controversy and policy, I’d be hesitant to go to Miller & Chevalier and, to a lesser extent, Ivins. Miller pays below market (I’ve heard the associate scale caps out at around $325k and bonuses are black box and you only get an opportunity for market bonuses at 2300+ hours) and Ivins doesn’t pay bonuses. Caplin also pays below market, but I’ve heard that it gives sizable bonuses.

[Anonymous User]

Thank you both for the insights.

Skadden is probably the largest group. The one complaint I’ve heard from Skadden is you can get siloed pretty quickly because the group is so large.

That's interesting, I would have thought that a larger group would provide more opportunities to try different things as a junior. I'm not sure if I want to do transactional/planning or controversy yet, so am hoping for someplace that's good at both. Also hoping for someplace that pays market, so probably the boutiques are out.

Any firms in particular to avoid? It's hard to get a sense of things when most threads are about corporate groups.

Sometimes getting big means you need to people to fill slots and specialize. That’s not from personal experience, just an associate I met while networking in DC Tax.

For posterity, I’m going to say that I’d disagree with the poster just before me. I agree that a boutique might not be the right answer for everyone. However, I’m at one and, in my view, the slight pay cut I’ve taken is more than made up for in hours and quality of life. I like my job and my coworkers and it feels sustainable and somewhere I can be long term. At least for me, my all-in comp is not too far below market all-in comp. Plus, the work is cool.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks for all the perspectives, I appreciate them all.

I'm curious about the hours and quality of life difference between boutiques and biglaw -- I'm not even really sure what counts as "good" or "bad" hours in tax, 2200? 2400? I understand that tax lawyers have more nonbillable commitments (presumably reading Tax Notes, getting up to speed on the latest proposed legislation or new regs, and the like) but don't really know what that plus billables means from a numbers perspective. And are there other ways in which the quality of life differs? Weekend work, quality of cases/deals, fire drills (to the extent that's a thing in tax)?

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks for all the perspectives, I appreciate them all.

I'm curious about the hours and quality of life difference between boutiques and biglaw -- I'm not even really sure what counts as "good" or "bad" hours in tax, 2200? 2400? I understand that tax lawyers have more nonbillable commitments (presumably reading Tax Notes, getting up to speed on the latest proposed legislation or new regs, and the like) but don't really know what that plus billables means from a numbers perspective. And are there other ways in which the quality of life differs? Weekend work, quality of cases/deals, fire drills (to the extent that's a thing in tax)?

Personally, a lot of my getting up to speed on new regs and legislation ends up being billable since you won’t really think about the intricacies of something like qualified small business stock investments until your client asks you about them.

That being said, I still do a lot of non billable reading on tax materials. Definitely more than any corporate associate.

Hours are honestly not great in tax but far fewer all nighters compared to corporate.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks for all the perspectives, I appreciate them all.

I'm curious about the hours and quality of life difference between boutiques and biglaw -- I'm not even really sure what counts as "good" or "bad" hours in tax, 2200? 2400? I understand that tax lawyers have more nonbillable commitments (presumably reading Tax Notes, getting up to speed on the latest proposed legislation or new regs, and the like) but don't really know what that plus billables means from a numbers perspective. And are there other ways in which the quality of life differs? Weekend work, quality of cases/deals, fire drills (to the extent that's a thing in tax)?

Personally, a lot of my getting up to speed on new regs and legislation ends up being billable since you won’t really think about the intricacies of something like qualified small business stock investments until your client asks you about them.

That being said, I still do a lot of non billable reading on tax materials. Definitely more than any corporate associate.

Hours are honestly not great in tax but far fewer all nighters compared to corporate.

I think the amount of nonbillable work can be really brutal - particularly if you are working for a firm that has an hours minimum for bonuses. Working at midnight on a client matter that overall counts towards my billable target and bonus is fine (that's big law), but working at midnight on a client alert related to a new regulation where my hours don't count towards anything is awful. Compared to my M&A colleagues, I end up working the same hours but a good 400 of mine aren't billable, but are still actual work (it's more tiring to read regulations than, say, sit on a diligence call for 4 hours). Overall I don't think the tax lifestyle is that bad (I've never pulled an all-nighter in 8 years), but it's still big law.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks for all the perspectives, I appreciate them all.

I'm curious about the hours and quality of life difference between boutiques and biglaw -- I'm not even really sure what counts as "good" or "bad" hours in tax, 2200? 2400? I understand that tax lawyers have more nonbillable commitments (presumably reading Tax Notes, getting up to speed on the latest proposed legislation or new regs, and the like) but don't really know what that plus billables means from a numbers perspective. And are there other ways in which the quality of life differs? Weekend work, quality of cases/deals, fire drills (to the extent that's a thing in tax)?

Boutique anon. Target is somewhere in the 1800-1900 range and it seems like that is what most people aim for. I work a pretty solid 9 or so hours a day but rarely work on anything after I leave the office and very rarely work weekends.

Not a lot of fire drills, my work tends to have a pretty predictable flow and long-ish time horizons. Some weeks I work more Monday-Thursday so I can leave earlier on Friday. Obviously, things happen on occasion (miscommunication or nature of the project) that can cause a fire drill or accelerate a deadline but I find that to be the exception, not the rule.

I don’t really pay attention to non-billable stuff (it’s not clear to me that my firm treats the hours differently) but keeping up with developments on a surface level isn’t too time consuming, I usually do it on my way into work.