Mid law salary negotiation Forum

[Anonymous User]

I am contemplating moving from my v10 to a mid law firm in hometown. I know they don’t pay cravath but they have asked me what I would hope for as salary.

I’m thinking I start with I am slated to make x at v10 this year. Given cost of living, billing rates, hours etc, I understand it may be a different scale (kind of playing stupid) but for my initial request I’d like to math that minus 10% for col. so as a 5th year, 270k. I know there bonuses are also smaller but don’t want to push it.

Will I get laughed out of the room and looked at as an idiot? Or should I at least try.

[Anonymous User]

As a data point for your consideration, I was offered a midlaw salary in the midwest as a 6th year in the 140s-150s k. And that was just a year ago. That was their initial offer, and I did not attempt to negotiate, so YMMV.

I would say whatever your expectation is, the rule of thumb is to divide it by half and you're usually in the ballpark of having it realistically perceived in the market.

[Anonymous User]

I am contemplating moving from my v10 to a mid law firm in hometown. I know they don’t pay cravath but they have asked me what I would hope for as salary.

I’m thinking I start with I am slated to make x at v10 this year. Given cost of living, billing rates, hours etc, I understand it may be a different scale (kind of playing stupid) but for my initial request I’d like to math that minus 10% for col. so as a 5th year, 270k. I know there bonuses are also smaller but don’t want to push it.

Will I get laughed out of the room and looked at as an idiot? Or should I at least try.

I think your math is a little too charitable here. It’s mid law—the profit margins are not 90% of Cravath (nor probably 50% for that matter). Usually there’s nothing wrong with asking, but I think your proposed offer is so high that they might just say “this person is expecting the moon and we wont be able to keep him/her happy.”

For reference, I interviewed (as an 8th year) with a mid law firm over the summer, would have been leaving a strong AmLaw 100 firm in a large, secondary market (making close to NYC market, well in excess of $300k plus significant bonus). The mid law firm was successful and busy and had some money to hire folks, and my goal was an offer at $200k. And that was a tough ask for them. While i think i could have gotten them to $200k (but no higher) I ultimately decided if it was that painful for them, it was going to be a tough road going forward.

If I were you, I’d figure out what a big law associate makes in your proposed market (if there are any such firms) and then multiply it by .65 to figure out what your realistic salary might be. You might go up 15% from there as your opening offer. I think that will be a number well below $270k.

Not meant to be a dig at mid law. The benefits of mid law in comparison to working at a v10 are many, and given the better odds of making partner, some of those benefits are ultimately financial. But I would be blown away to see a genuine mid law firm pay a 5th year anything close to $270k. Others may disagree or have better facts than me.

[Anonymous User]

This firm has about 150 lawyers and is pretty highly regarded. I guess I just set a number I can live with and if they take it great, otherwise I’ll have to keep looking….

[Anonymous User]

This firm has about 150 lawyers and is pretty highly regarded. I guess I just set a number I can live with and if they take it great, otherwise I’ll have to keep looking….

Makes sense. Certainly not worth anyone’s time to throw out offers you would not be happy with. Good luck!

[Anonymous User]

This firm has about 150 lawyers and is pretty highly regarded. I guess I just set a number I can live with and if they take it great, otherwise I’ll have to keep looking….

Are they largest firm in your market?

Alternatively go to one of the market paying biglaw firms that are remote if you can't take the comp hit and try to move over to hometown firm at a counsel level.

[CanadianWolf]

I am contemplating moving from my v10 to a mid law firm in hometown. I know they don’t pay cravath but they have asked me what I would hope for as salary.

I’m thinking I start with I am slated to make x at v10 this year. Given cost of living, billing rates, hours etc, I understand it may be a different scale (kind of playing stupid) but for my initial request I’d like to math that minus 10% for col. so as a 5th year, 270k. I know there bonuses are also smaller but don’t want to push it.

Will I get laughed out of the room and looked at as an idiot? Or should I at least try.

Yes, you would be laughed out of the room.

Consider approaching this in a different manner. Focus on the associate to partner ratio and the likelihood of becoming a partner in your new firm.

Have you researched the compensation at any level ? What does this firm pay first year associates ? What amount of billable hours do they expect ?

As a fifth year, my guess would be that the compensation is about $150,000 to $160,000 plus a small bonus.

[Anonymous User]

I am contemplating moving from my v10 to a mid law firm in hometown. I know they don’t pay cravath but they have asked me what I would hope for as salary.

I’m thinking I start with I am slated to make x at v10 this year. Given cost of living, billing rates, hours etc, I understand it may be a different scale (kind of playing stupid) but for my initial request I’d like to math that minus 10% for col. so as a 5th year, 270k. I know there bonuses are also smaller but don’t want to push it.

Will I get laughed out of the room and looked at as an idiot? Or should I at least try.

Yes, you would be laughed out of the room.

Consider approaching this in a different manner. Focus on the associate to partner ratio and the likelihood of becoming a partner in your new firm.

Have you researched the compensation at any level ? What does this firm pay first year associates ? What amount of billable hours do they expect ?

As a fifth year, my guess would be that the compensation is about $150,000 to $160,000 plus a small bonus.

There are a few firms that pay cravath salary with smaller bonus.

[Anonymous User]

Do these firms paying 150 or whatever actually offer that mythical concept of work life balance? Or are people taking these jobs because they're eased out of biglaw.

[Anonymous User]

Do these firms paying 150 or whatever actually offer that mythical concept of work life balance? Or are people taking these jobs because they're eased out of biglaw.

I think people take these jobs because of location. Once (if) biglaw's move to the model of WFH everywhere, these midlaw firms are dead in the competition for talent.

[Anonymous User]

Do these firms paying 150 or whatever actually offer that mythical concept of work life balance? Or are people taking these jobs because they're eased out of biglaw.

The comp cut is greater than the hours cut, but they are lower too. And there is generally a much greater respect for evening hour unavailability as family time. There's just a totally different idea of what a 30-year-old's life looks like in NY or DC vs a place like Minneapolis or Birmingham and that is reflected in the culture and expectations.

I know some mid law gunners though who would fit right into biglaw culture, so that exists too. They are from Mid Market and they went to University of Mid Market Law and they've spent their whole career in that city, billing 2300 a year for a fraction of what they could have made at a V100. So it varies.

[Anonymous User]

Do these firms paying 150 or whatever actually offer that mythical concept of work life balance? Or are people taking these jobs because they're eased out of biglaw.

I think people take these jobs because of location. Once (if) biglaw's move to the model of WFH everywhere, these midlaw firms are dead in the competition for talent.

I think there's way too much variation in "midlaw" to make this kind of statement. Even if biglaw goes to WFH for everywhere, it's not likely to hire fewer associates/make more of them partners. I went to law school in a small legal market and my classmates who are in midlaw are all partners now, for instance. (I think it's also easier to make partner in the biglaw firms in this market than in, say, NYC or DC or the like, and some classmates are biglaw partners, too, although not all are, and I also don't know all the distinctions between levels of partner and so on, which I think are less likely to be a thing in the midlaw firms.)

I mean, I agree that secondary/tertiary market midlaw isn't likely to offer the mythical combo of perfect work/life balance and high pay, but I do think the lifestyle can be better than NYC etc. biglaw. There's just a lot of variation.

[Anonymous User]

Do these firms paying 150 or whatever actually offer that mythical concept of work life balance? Or are people taking these jobs because they're eased out of biglaw.

Yeah the work life balance is real. 9 – 5:30ish with occasional nights and weekends. First year pay was a lot below 150 but it's within "or whatever" range a few years later now. Very good partner prospects. Location and balance are the biggest draws; very few people are actually choosing between my or similar firms in town vs big market biglaw.

Bigger firms in town, both local-grown firms and satellite biglaw offices, have better pay (>150) and worse work life balance, but I'd imagine it's still much better balance than big market biglaw.

[Anonymous User]

Do these firms paying 150 or whatever actually offer that mythical concept of work life balance? Or are people taking these jobs because they're eased out of biglaw.

I think people take these jobs because of location. Once (if) biglaw's move to the model of WFH everywhere, these midlaw firms are dead in the competition for talent.

The main reason I’m considering mid law is because I want to be in this market and even if I could do remote big law, I feel like you basically remove any small chance of partnership you ever had if you are remote. Also in any downturn, those r the easy first cuts. I think I’d rather be midlaw making 350k-500k as equity partner then counsel at big law with the job insecurity making a bit more. Am I crazy?

[The Lsat Airbender]

Do these firms paying 150 or whatever actually offer that mythical concept of work life balance? Or are people taking these jobs because they're eased out of biglaw.

I think people take these jobs because of location. Once (if) biglaw's move to the model of WFH everywhere, these midlaw firms are dead in the competition for talent.

The main reason I’m considering mid law is because I want to be in this market and even if I could do remote big law, I feel like you basically remove any small chance of partnership you ever had if you are remote. Also in any downturn, those r the easy first cuts. I think I’d rather be midlaw making 350k-500k as equity partner then counsel at big law with the job insecurity making a bit more. Am I crazy?

You're crazy for seriously contemplating equity partnership as part of your cost/benefit analysis, but the conclusion about wanting to work in a "regional biglaw"/midlaw office in your preferred market is perfectly reasonable.

[Anonymous User]

Do these firms paying 150 or whatever actually offer that mythical concept of work life balance? Or are people taking these jobs because they're eased out of biglaw.

Yeah the work life balance is real. 9 – 5:30ish with occasional nights and weekends. First year pay was a lot below 150 but it's within "or whatever" range a few years later now. Very good partner prospects. Location and balance are the biggest draws; very few people are actually choosing between my or similar firms in town vs big market biglaw.

Bigger firms in town, both local-grown firms and satellite biglaw offices, have better pay (>150) and worse work life balance, but I'd imagine it's still much better balance than big market biglaw.

Nice, that's a reasonable tradeoff.

[umichman]

Do these firms paying 150 or whatever actually offer that mythical concept of work life balance? Or are people taking these jobs because they're eased out of biglaw.

I think people take these jobs because of location. Once (if) biglaw's move to the model of WFH everywhere, these midlaw firms are dead in the competition for talent.

The main reason I’m considering mid law is because I want to be in this market and even if I could do remote big law, I feel like you basically remove any small chance of partnership you ever had if you are remote. Also in any downturn, those r the easy first cuts. I think I’d rather be midlaw making 350k-500k as equity partner then counsel at big law with the job insecurity making a bit more. Am I crazy?

You're crazy for seriously contemplating equity partnership as part of your cost/benefit analysis, but the conclusion about wanting to work in a "regional biglaw"/midlaw office in your preferred market is perfectly reasonable.

Taking equity partnership at a midlaw firm as a fifth year is crazy? Something that one would be up for in 5 years? How is that crazy?

Taking equity into account as a first year is one thing, but eventually it has to become a consideration.

[Wubbles]

I don't think the average midlaw junior partner makes 350-500k unless we're talking about regional biglaw, in which case most of the relaxed hours ideation in here can be ignored.

[Anonymous User]

I don't think the average midlaw junior partner makes 350-500k unless we're talking about regional biglaw, in which case most of the relaxed hours ideation in here can be ignored.

I agree, I think junior partners at mid law look at 250-300k range.

[Anonymous User]

To be clear, I said as equity partner making 350-500, not a junior partner. Not sure where that came from. There is no way these 12+ year partners at firms with between 100-200 lawyers are making under 350.

[ChickenSalad]

To be clear, I said as equity partner making 350-500, not a junior partner. Not sure where that came from. There is no way these 12+ year partners at firms with between 100-200 lawyers are making under 350.

People don’t make equity partner just because they’re good lawyers. They make it because they have a huge book of business. At the regional big law firms that i know of (amlaw 100-200) you have to generate over a million dollars per year in collections to be eligible for equity partnership. And you have to do it for multiple years, not just a one off.

You’re moving to a different market so unless you have a realistic plan for developing client relationships and generating a huge book of business, yes it’s asinine to even consider equity partnership as a factor. Even if that market is your hometown.

[The Lsat Airbender]

To be clear, I said as equity partner making 350-500, not a junior partner. Not sure where that came from. There is no way these 12+ year partners at firms with between 100-200 lawyers are making under 350.

People don’t make equity partner just because they’re good lawyers. They make it because they have a huge book of business. At the regional big law firms that i know of (amlaw 100-200) you have to generate over a million dollars per year in collections to be eligible for equity partnership. And you have to do it for multiple years, not just a one off.

You’re moving to a different market so unless you have a realistic plan for developing client relationships and generating a huge book of business, yes it’s asinine to even consider equity partnership as a factor. Even if that market is your hometown.

This. Secondary markets have their virtues, but assuming you'll reach the acme of compensation there is nearly as silly as a NYC associate assuming they'll make $5MM as a V10 pathern (unless you're well-connected or otherwise an exception that proves the rule)

[Anonymous User]

There is no way these 12+ year partners at firms with between 100-200 lawyers are making under 350.

Why are you so sure about this? Once you're out of the major markets, a partner at these firms might bill at a lower rate than a first year in biglaw. And are billing far fewer hours, and need to generate their own business.

[2013]

There is no way these 12+ year partners at firms with between 100-200 lawyers are making under 350.

Why are you so sure about this? Once you're out of the major markets, a partner at these firms might bill at a lower rate than a first year in biglaw. And are billing far fewer hours, and need to generate their own business.

I once interviewed at a midsize law firm that billed out senior partners at $250/hr. That partner is not making $300k.

[Anonymous User]

To be clear, I said as equity partner making 350-500, not a junior partner. Not sure where that came from. There is no way these 12+ year partners at firms with between 100-200 lawyers are making under 350.

So at what point of ones careeer is someone allowed to consider equity partnership potential? Or is your position that nobody should ever think about this until they are equity partner which begs the question of how anybody ever becomes an equity partner anywhere.

People don’t make equity partner just because they’re good lawyers. They make it because they have a huge book of business. At the regional big law firms that i know of (amlaw 100-200) you have to generate over a million dollars per year in collections to be eligible for equity partnership. And you have to do it for multiple years, not just a one off.

You’re moving to a different market so unless you have a realistic plan for developing client relationships and generating a huge book of business, yes it’s asinine to even consider equity partnership as a factor. Even if that market is your hometown.

So At what point is someone allowed to think about equity partnership? Or you are saying nobody ever makes equity partner anyways so never think about it. Seems like a very short sighted viewpoint. Have you already been passed over for equity partner? Seems like you must have some experience and unique knowledge to be making such strong statements that no senior associates should consider whether they will make partner.