What's Happening to Incompetent Corporate Associates These Days? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Can someone please translate into plain English what “good attitude” means?

When someone gives you tons of shitty assignments and admin work that nobody wants to do, say "will do!" and pretend they aren't shitty assignments that nobody wants to do. Welcome to life as a junior, it sucks here.

[Anonymous User]

Can someone please translate into plain English what “good attitude” means?

When someone gives you tons of shitty assignments and admin work that nobody wants to do, say "will do!" and pretend they aren't shitty assignments that nobody wants to do. Welcome to life as a junior, it sucks here.

Oh ok, that's easy enough. I really don't mind doing sig pages for 205k! Was just getting worried that it meant something more.

Are there people who just...refuse to do stuff? Maybe OP has a point after all..

[Anonymous User]

Can someone please translate into plain English what “good attitude” means?

When someone gives you tons of shitty assignments and admin work that nobody wants to do, say "will do!" and pretend they aren't shitty assignments that nobody wants to do. Welcome to life as a junior, it sucks here.

That’s probably true for first years, expectations are really low.

At some point though it also becomes about showing an interest in the subject matter of your practice (whether real or feigned).

[Anonymous User]

Can someone please translate into plain English what “good attitude” means?

When someone gives you tons of shitty assignments and admin work that nobody wants to do, say "will do!" and pretend they aren't shitty assignments that nobody wants to do. Welcome to life as a junior, it sucks here.

Oh ok, that's easy enough. I really don't mind doing sig pages for 205k! Was just getting worried that it meant something more.

Are there people who just...refuse to do stuff? Maybe OP has a point after all..

Heard of a few cases of people who’ve been asked to move on from my V10 in the first couple of years. One person sent out signature pages to all the signatories on an earlier deal (without checking the parties to the current deal, many of whom were different), missed a closing completely by strolling in at noon when they were told to be there at 8 (and then when the senior asked what happened, just said “I was monitoring emails and it seemed like you had it all under control”), gave a partner another partner’s comments to mark up, and was rumored to be doing cocaine at his desk.
Another person turned down work just before moving offices (not firms) and yelled at the partner for asking him to do it, and was hauled up in front of the firm’s admin partner for screaming obscenities at the IT team in a voicemail.

I’m sure there are other cases, but my experience is that not much is expected competence-wise in the first couple of years at most firms.

[showusyourtorts]

Incompetent senior associate here. What's happening is, I'm clearing $500k while working less than better, more in-demand associates.

Underrated response. Cheers.

[Anonymous User]

Can someone please translate into plain English what “good attitude” means?

When someone gives you tons of shitty assignments and admin work that nobody wants to do, say "will do!" and pretend they aren't shitty assignments that nobody wants to do. Welcome to life as a junior, it sucks here.

Oh ok, that's easy enough. I really don't mind doing sig pages for 205k! Was just getting worried that it meant something more.

Are there people who just...refuse to do stuff? Maybe OP has a point after all..

I refuse to do stuff if I'm otherwise too busy/already at 8 for the day or reasonably could get to 8 hours that day. I usually start working pre-6am and this allows me to have some of my life back in the afternoon. Many people would probably say that I'm not a team player for that. Whateves. FWIW I'm a 2d year in a niche group with decently staffed teams. Hasn't been a problem yet. If you're busy you're busy and no amount of good attitude fixes blowing deadlines and inconveniencing people relying on you so...you know...it is what it is.

As a junior, reading between the lines, if OP is continuously experiencing "completely incompetent juniors" it may be that OP has a bad reputation as a manager and people don't want to work with OP so they deliver less quality work on OP's assignments out of sheer necessity. If juniors are incredibly busy, and I assume most corporate juniors are incredibly busy, and they're being asked to deliver work for someone who treats them not so well (not kind to them, never says thank you, bad management style, maybe controlling or kind of verbally rude), odds are that associate is going to get that senior's work done in a mediocre or incompetent way just to avoid working with that senior or midlevel in the future. Sometimes it just happens subconsciously as it's not really natural to want to prioritize a person who makes you feel bad.

[Anonymous User]

My M&A team has a first year with great "can do!" attitude that I dimly recall having myself being a first year. We also have a lateral who came over from another firm and isn't super familiar with M&A but has a couple years experience. The first year is much better to have on your team just because of the raw commitment, even without any relevant experience. I'm sure the lateral was already burnt out before moving, but is either too degraded by biglaw to perform (misses deadlines, pushes back on assignments frequently, does a bad job half the time) or is planning to quit as soon as bonus hits. I'm just waiting to collect bonus before I jump in-house, so I'm not even being a good mid-level anymore and trying to get the best out of them.

I work very closely with two senior associates on most deals. I've been genuinely afraid one of them will quit throughout the last year and I'd have to help pick up the slack. Now I'm basically going to do the same to them. Has everyone else been eyeing your team and quietly praying they don't quit before you do?

[Anonymous User]

Can someone please translate into plain English what “good attitude” means?

When someone gives you tons of shitty assignments and admin work that nobody wants to do, say "will do!" and pretend they aren't shitty assignments that nobody wants to do. Welcome to life as a junior, it sucks here.

Oh ok, that's easy enough. I really don't mind doing sig pages for 205k! Was just getting worried that it meant something more.

Are there people who just...refuse to do stuff? Maybe OP has a point after all..

I refuse to do stuff if I'm otherwise too busy/already at 8 for the day or reasonably could get to 8 hours that day. I usually start working pre-6am and this allows me to have some of my life back in the afternoon. Many people would probably say that I'm not a team player for that. Whateves. FWIW I'm a 2d year in a niche group with decently staffed teams. Hasn't been a problem yet. If you're busy you're busy and no amount of good attitude fixes blowing deadlines and inconveniencing people relying on you so...you know...it is what it is.

As a junior, reading between the lines, if OP is continuously experiencing "completely incompetent juniors" it may be that OP has a bad reputation as a manager and people don't want to work with OP so they deliver less quality work on OP's assignments out of sheer necessity. If juniors are incredibly busy, and I assume most corporate juniors are incredibly busy, and they're being asked to deliver work for someone who treats them not so well (not kind to them, never says thank you, bad management style, maybe controlling or kind of verbally rude), odds are that associate is going to get that senior's work done in a mediocre or incompetent way just to avoid working with that senior or midlevel in the future. Sometimes it just happens subconsciously as it's not really natural to want to prioritize a person who makes you feel bad.

If this person is not in my group, they sound exactly like someone in my group who is universally recognized as not pulling their weight but surviving b/c my group needs bodies.

The hot market for associates has really filtered down to juniors I think, they have less give a shit now in my experience. A little fear of being fired if you don't pull your weight is a good motivator for people and it is mostly gone now.

[Anonymous User]

Can someone please translate into plain English what “good attitude” means?

When someone gives you tons of shitty assignments and admin work that nobody wants to do, say "will do!" and pretend they aren't shitty assignments that nobody wants to do. Welcome to life as a junior, it sucks here.

Oh ok, that's easy enough. I really don't mind doing sig pages for 205k! Was just getting worried that it meant something more.

Are there people who just...refuse to do stuff? Maybe OP has a point after all..

I refuse to do stuff if I'm otherwise too busy/already at 8 for the day or reasonably could get to 8 hours that day. I usually start working pre-6am and this allows me to have some of my life back in the afternoon. Many people would probably say that I'm not a team player for that. Whateves. FWIW I'm a 2d year in a niche group with decently staffed teams. Hasn't been a problem yet. If you're busy you're busy and no amount of good attitude fixes blowing deadlines and inconveniencing people relying on you so...you know...it is what it is.

As a junior, reading between the lines, if OP is continuously experiencing "completely incompetent juniors" it may be that OP has a bad reputation as a manager and people don't want to work with OP so they deliver less quality work on OP's assignments out of sheer necessity. If juniors are incredibly busy, and I assume most corporate juniors are incredibly busy, and they're being asked to deliver work for someone who treats them not so well (not kind to them, never says thank you, bad management style, maybe controlling or kind of verbally rude), odds are that associate is going to get that senior's work done in a mediocre or incompetent way just to avoid working with that senior or midlevel in the future. Sometimes it just happens subconsciously as it's not really natural to want to prioritize a person who makes you feel bad.

If this person is not in my group, they sound exactly like someone in my group who is universally recognized as not pulling their weight but surviving b/c my group needs bodies.

The hot market for associates has really filtered down to juniors I think, they have less give a shit now in my experience. A little fear of being fired if you don't pull your weight is a good motivator for people and it is mostly gone now.

All signs point to the market remaining hot but the people treating their biglaw job like the above are the first ones that are gonna be fired if it ever meaningfully slows down. At which point finding a new job may be next to impossible. I have a hate the game not the player attitude but personally wouldn’t want to gamble my career on the market staying hot forever.

[Anonymous User]

Can someone please translate into plain English what “good attitude” means?

When someone gives you tons of shitty assignments and admin work that nobody wants to do, say "will do!" and pretend they aren't shitty assignments that nobody wants to do. Welcome to life as a junior, it sucks here.

Oh ok, that's easy enough. I really don't mind doing sig pages for 205k! Was just getting worried that it meant something more.

Are there people who just...refuse to do stuff? Maybe OP has a point after all..

I refuse to do stuff if I'm otherwise too busy/already at 8 for the day or reasonably could get to 8 hours that day. I usually start working pre-6am and this allows me to have some of my life back in the afternoon. Many people would probably say that I'm not a team player for that. Whateves. FWIW I'm a 2d year in a niche group with decently staffed teams. Hasn't been a problem yet. If you're busy you're busy and no amount of good attitude fixes blowing deadlines and inconveniencing people relying on you so...you know...it is what it is.

As a junior, reading between the lines, if OP is continuously experiencing "completely incompetent juniors" it may be that OP has a bad reputation as a manager and people don't want to work with OP so they deliver less quality work on OP's assignments out of sheer necessity. If juniors are incredibly busy, and I assume most corporate juniors are incredibly busy, and they're being asked to deliver work for someone who treats them not so well (not kind to them, never says thank you, bad management style, maybe controlling or kind of verbally rude), odds are that associate is going to get that senior's work done in a mediocre or incompetent way just to avoid working with that senior or midlevel in the future. Sometimes it just happens subconsciously as it's not really natural to want to prioritize a person who makes you feel bad.

If this person is not in my group, they sound exactly like someone in my group who is universally recognized as not pulling their weight but surviving b/c my group needs bodies.

The hot market for associates has really filtered down to juniors I think, they have less give a shit now in my experience. A little fear of being fired if you don't pull your weight is a good motivator for people and it is mostly gone now.

All signs point to the market remaining hot but the people treating their biglaw job like the above are the first ones that are gonna be fired if it ever meaningfully slows down. At which point finding a new job may be next to impossible. I have a hate the game not the player attitude but personally wouldn’t want to gamble my career on the market staying hot forever.

OP from above replying to both you and the commenter before.

Why would I care if I get fired when the market slows down? Big law OPERATES on the mentality that not everyone will want to make partner and that some people will self-select off of that track in order to leave around years 3-5. That is PRECISELY what I will be doing. In order to make partner you have to make third year, fourth year, senior associate, etc. I can't think of anything worse than making senior associate for my mental well-being.

It's, in my opinion, kind of fucked up that people consistently tell you: "this job isn't for everyone, not everyone's going to make it, not everyone can be partner," and when you ACT on those comments by protecting your personal life, by ensuring that your mental health is cared for to the best of your ability (in the middle of the collapse of our society and its institutions) then you're the problem, you don't pull your weight and you should fear being fired, etc.

The lifestyle that midyears and senior associates are modeling for me looks unbearable and I haven't seen a single one who looks happy or has told me: "I'm happy doing this job." In fact, almost every midlevel that I talk to hates this job but feels stuck in it. Why would I bust my ass to experience that, when I could work as hard as I am able to mentally and physically at this time (which, doing 8/hrs a day every day is working full time?) and no more? Why would I actively immiserate myself for more when what I'm doing has me surviving just fine at my job? When doing what I'm doing allows me time to see the people that I love and spend time with them that I will never get back once it's passed? When I could develop my interpersonal relationships, get married, have a fucking life that isn't sitting in front of a nightmare laptop day in and day out so that some midyear associate thinks I'm a worthwhile hire? Society's changing. Work is not all there is to life.

You're 100% right, I don't fear being fired. I don't at all. If I were fired in 2 years for not making hours, not killing myself to help midyears who aren't nice to me or treat me poorly, etc. then I would find another job because at the end of the day it's just a job and there are a lot of them. If I were fired tomorrow, then I would live off my savings and find a different job. If that upsets you then I'm sorry but I think you need to take a step back from this job to see the sense in it. I've suffered a lot in my life and I didn't get anything for it. There are no extra points given out in life for stress and suffering and hardship. Even if the market slows down for big law associates, we will always need teachers. We will always need local farmers. We will always need soldiers. We will always need government employees. Big law associates can be replaced and those who are can find other jobs to do that actually make them happy.

What's so wrong with that?

Edit* when people say that "you're not pulling your weight," if you're already working full-time for your job that's toxic as hell. What they mean is "you're not pulling someone else's weight," or "you're notpulling your weight and then some.

Pulling my weight is working 8 hours a day, per my contract's availability. That is what I agreed to do. If my job had put in my offer letter: you will be required to work 24-7 then that would be a different story, wouldn't it? But, my job explicitly states that my pay is for the hours between 9:00 am - 5:30 pm 5/days a week. Anything beyond that is bonus time that I will choose to volunteer or turn down to the best of my ability (and I don't want a bonus). Sometimes I have to give up that time and that's what it is. I accept that. But I'm sure as shit not going to volunteer it so I can work full-time+ and be a nice little protestant with my great sterling work ethic (which gets me nothing long-term but more misery). I am doing exactly what I promised to do. 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. Anything beyond that is voluntary or you should put it in the contract explicitly and see how many people stop taking these jobs. Big law's hiring strategy is to pick up as many young, straight through JD idiots showing up for work willing to grind their spirits so deeply into the stone they're dead behind the eyes by year 3 & letting them do that to you is stupid.

Labor is a negotiation and you lose every single one if you're not willing to walk away.

[Anonymous User]

. We will always need local farmers. We will always need soldiers. We will always need government employees.

First, we don't need local farmers...

Is your plan to join the army or be a mailman?

I think what you're missing is that getting fired in a recession is pretty bad, because that's when everybody else is getting fired. That's what unemployment is. It's actually not always easy to find another job. The labor market doesn't clear. If you actually don't want to be in biglaw forever, now is probably the best possible time to get out.

[Anonymous User]

. We will always need local farmers. We will always need soldiers. We will always need government employees.

First, we don't need local farmers...

Is your plan to join the army or be a mailman?

I think what you're missing is that getting fired in a recession is pretty bad, because that's when everybody else is getting fired. That's what unemployment is. It's actually not always easy to find another job. The labor market doesn't clear. If you actually don't want to be in biglaw forever, now is probably the best possible time to get out.

I am 100% willing to be a farmer or a mailwoman. I am 100% willing to join JAG. I almost did join JAG. I am 100% willing to buy land and farm locally, sustaining with solar to cut my costs, so that my community can eat something that isn't processed to shit by corn syrup conglomerates. I am 100% willing to become a high school civics teacher in a low cost of living area where there are not a lot of teachers clamoring for those jobs.

Why wouldn't I be willing to take those jobs? Is there something about those jobs that's beneath us?

Also lmao re: "not needing local farmers" in the middle of the supply chain crisis where meat and food costs are literally rising month over month because demand is so high while climate change literally destroys crop yields the world over.

[jotarokujo]

. We will always need local farmers. We will always need soldiers. We will always need government employees.

First, we don't need local farmers...

Is your plan to join the army or be a mailman?

I think what you're missing is that getting fired in a recession is pretty bad, because that's when everybody else is getting fired. That's what unemployment is. It's actually not always easy to find another job. The labor market doesn't clear. If you actually don't want to be in biglaw forever, now is probably the best possible time to get out.

I am 100% willing to be a farmer or a mailwoman. I am 100% willing to join JAG. I almost did join JAG. I am 100% willing to buy land and farm locally, sustaining with solar to cut my costs, so that my community can eat something that isn't processed to shit by corn syrup conglomerates. I am 100% willing to become a high school civics teacher in a low cost of living area where there are not a lot of teachers clamoring for those jobs.

Why wouldn't I be willing to take those jobs? Is there something about those jobs that's beneath us?

Also lmao re: "not needing local farmers" in the middle of the supply chain crisis where meat and food costs are literally rising month over month because demand is so high while climate change literally destroys crop yields the world over.

fair enough. just wondering in case there are some 0Ls lurking, why go to law school if you're not interested in the law? why not do what you're actually interested in. if you wanted to make money why not do finance or tech out of undergrad? that way you could have avoided the pain of law school and biglaw

[Anonymous User]

. We will always need local farmers. We will always need soldiers. We will always need government employees.

First, we don't need local farmers...

Is your plan to join the army or be a mailman?

I think what you're missing is that getting fired in a recession is pretty bad, because that's when everybody else is getting fired. That's what unemployment is. It's actually not always easy to find another job. The labor market doesn't clear. If you actually don't want to be in biglaw forever, now is probably the best possible time to get out.

I am 100% willing to be a farmer or a mailwoman. I am 100% willing to join JAG. I almost did join JAG. I am 100% willing to buy land and farm locally, sustaining with solar to cut my costs, so that my community can eat something that isn't processed to shit by corn syrup conglomerates. I am 100% willing to become a high school civics teacher in a low cost of living area where there are not a lot of teachers clamoring for those jobs.

Why wouldn't I be willing to take those jobs? Is there something about those jobs that's beneath us?

Also lmao re: "not needing local farmers" in the middle of the supply chain crisis where meat and food costs are literally rising month over month because demand is so high while climate change literally destroys crop yields the world over.

fair enough. just wondering in case there are some 0Ls lurking, why go to law school if you're not interested in the law? why not do what you're actually interested in. if you wanted to make money why not do finance or tech out of undergrad? that way you could have avoided the pain of law school and biglaw

Trust me, going to law school is one of the biggest regrets of my life. I am extremely, extremely interested in the law. But being a lawyer has almost nothing to do with that, especially in BL. It's paper-pushing and profit-maximizing to the extent that your mental health will suffer. 40% of lawyers have substance abuse problems and I doubt we should be asking if it's "just because they aren't interested in the law," or "made a mistake going to law school." Every single day I wish that I'd stopped at my bachelor's. But, you know, the truth is, 4 years ago there was no global pandemic, there was no work-from-home, there was no threat to safety in returning to the office. There was time you could be offline (commuting, dinner, etc.) not just a long intractable push toward maximizing literally every second of your life for your firm's profit.

Truthfully, I think I could've survived a lot longer in big law if I was still the person that started law school or took the summer associate position. But so much has changed and it feels like I've been enlightened to see exactly how much of your life you will lose to these jobs never to get them back. Each day that I work over 10 hours I think to myself: "well that day is gone forever." I maybe never would've thought that way in 2019. But with aging and trauma comes more experience and maybe the wisdom to have better personal judgment regarding your own self-imposed expectations. I no longer seek perfection, just time to be in the now.

I don't think anyone who wants to be in the rat race fully is wrong for doing that, whatsoever! I hope all of the midlevels and seniors love their jobs and have happy lives. But, I do think that expecting everyone to be equally as gung-ho about a job when that job environment objectively treats its employees in poor ways is blatantly too much. It's odd that once people suffer through their junior years they endorse that suffering by imposing it on others even though they hated it themselves.

I am not a victim, I am a volunteer. But, facts are that I can't take my poor choice to go to law school back, only retool to use my degree in a way that helps my community thrive. Just gotta pay my debt down a bit so I stand a chance at feeling truly free & happy. My dream is to wake up and never feel that gut tightening that I feel on Sunday evening or Monday morning again. I hope that for all of you as well. I don't regret how much smarter, empathetic, and hard-working my degree taught me to be. I hope I can use the skills from it in my life to leave a better life for my future kids and their cohort. But, if there are 0Ls reading: I absolutely would not go to law school if I were given a do-over.

[Anonymous User]

Can someone please translate into plain English what “good attitude” means?

When someone gives you tons of shitty assignments and admin work that nobody wants to do, say "will do!" and pretend they aren't shitty assignments that nobody wants to do. Welcome to life as a junior, it sucks here.

Oh ok, that's easy enough. I really don't mind doing sig pages for 205k! Was just getting worried that it meant something more.

Are there people who just...refuse to do stuff? Maybe OP has a point after all..

I refuse to do stuff if I'm otherwise too busy/already at 8 for the day or reasonably could get to 8 hours that day. I usually start working pre-6am and this allows me to have some of my life back in the afternoon. Many people would probably say that I'm not a team player for that. Whateves. FWIW I'm a 2d year in a niche group with decently staffed teams. Hasn't been a problem yet. If you're busy you're busy and no amount of good attitude fixes blowing deadlines and inconveniencing people relying on you so...you know...it is what it is.

As a junior, reading between the lines, if OP is continuously experiencing "completely incompetent juniors" it may be that OP has a bad reputation as a manager and people don't want to work with OP so they deliver less quality work on OP's assignments out of sheer necessity. If juniors are incredibly busy, and I assume most corporate juniors are incredibly busy, and they're being asked to deliver work for someone who treats them not so well (not kind to them, never says thank you, bad management style, maybe controlling or kind of verbally rude), odds are that associate is going to get that senior's work done in a mediocre or incompetent way just to avoid working with that senior or midlevel in the future. Sometimes it just happens subconsciously as it's not really natural to want to prioritize a person who makes you feel bad.

If this person is not in my group, they sound exactly like someone in my group who is universally recognized as not pulling their weight but surviving b/c my group needs bodies.

The hot market for associates has really filtered down to juniors I think, they have less give a shit now in my experience. A little fear of being fired if you don't pull your weight is a good motivator for people and it is mostly gone now.

All signs point to the market remaining hot but the people treating their biglaw job like the above are the first ones that are gonna be fired if it ever meaningfully slows down. At which point finding a new job may be next to impossible. I have a hate the game not the player attitude but personally wouldn’t want to gamble my career on the market staying hot forever.

OP from above replying to both you and the commenter before.

Why would I care if I get fired when the market slows down? Big law OPERATES on the mentality that not everyone will want to make partner and that some people will self-select off of that track in order to leave around years 3-5. That is PRECISELY what I will be doing. In order to make partner you have to make third year, fourth year, senior associate, etc. I can't think of anything worse than making senior associate for my mental well-being.

It's, in my opinion, kind of fucked up that people consistently tell you: "this job isn't for everyone, not everyone's going to make it, not everyone can be partner," and when you ACT on those comments by protecting your personal life, by ensuring that your mental health is cared for to the best of your ability (in the middle of the collapse of our society and its institutions) then you're the problem, you don't pull your weight and you should fear being fired, etc.

The lifestyle that midyears and senior associates are modeling for me looks unbearable and I haven't seen a single one who looks happy or has told me: "I'm happy doing this job." In fact, almost every midlevel that I talk to hates this job but feels stuck in it. Why would I bust my ass to experience that, when I could work as hard as I am able to mentally and physically at this time (which, doing 8/hrs a day every day is working full time?) and no more? Why would I actively immiserate myself for more when what I'm doing has me surviving just fine at my job? When doing what I'm doing allows me time to see the people that I love and spend time with them that I will never get back once it's passed? When I could develop my interpersonal relationships, get married, have a fucking life that isn't sitting in front of a nightmare laptop day in and day out so that some midyear associate thinks I'm a worthwhile hire? Society's changing. Work is not all there is to life.

You're 100% right, I don't fear being fired. I don't at all. If I were fired in 2 years for not making hours, not killing myself to help midyears who aren't nice to me or treat me poorly, etc. then I would find another job because at the end of the day it's just a job and there are a lot of them. If I were fired tomorrow, then I would live off my savings and find a different job. If that upsets you then I'm sorry but I think you need to take a step back from this job to see the sense in it. I've suffered a lot in my life and I didn't get anything for it. There are no extra points given out in life for stress and suffering and hardship. Even if the market slows down for big law associates, we will always need teachers. We will always need local farmers. We will always need soldiers. We will always need government employees. Big law associates can be replaced and those who are can find other jobs to do that actually make them happy.

What's so wrong with that?

Edit* when people say that "you're not pulling your weight," if you're already working full-time for your job that's toxic as hell. What they mean is "you're not pulling someone else's weight," or "you're notpulling your weight and then some.

Pulling my weight is working 8 hours a day, per my contract's availability. That is what I agreed to do. If my job had put in my offer letter: you will be required to work 24-7 then that would be a different story, wouldn't it? But, my job explicitly states that my pay is for the hours between 9:00 am - 5:30 pm 5/days a week. Anything beyond that is bonus time that I will choose to volunteer or turn down to the best of my ability (and I don't want a bonus). Sometimes I have to give up that time and that's what it is. I accept that. But I'm sure as shit not going to volunteer it so I can work full-time+ and be a nice little protestant with my great sterling work ethic (which gets me nothing long-term but more misery). I am doing exactly what I promised to do. 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. Anything beyond that is voluntary or you should put it in the contract explicitly and see how many people stop taking these jobs. Big law's hiring strategy is to pick up as many young, straight through JD idiots showing up for work willing to grind their spirits so deeply into the stone they're dead behind the eyes by year 3 & letting them do that to you is stupid.

Labor is a negotiation and you lose every single one if you're not willing to walk away.

Solid post. Agree 100%. The mental abuse, manipulation of "reality" and extreme gaslighting does not help.

[Anonymous User]

. We will always need local farmers. We will always need soldiers. We will always need government employees.

First, we don't need local farmers...

Is your plan to join the army or be a mailman?

I think what you're missing is that getting fired in a recession is pretty bad, because that's when everybody else is getting fired. That's what unemployment is. It's actually not always easy to find another job. The labor market doesn't clear. If you actually don't want to be in biglaw forever, now is probably the best possible time to get out.

I am 100% willing to be a farmer or a mailwoman. I am 100% willing to join JAG. I almost did join JAG. I am 100% willing to buy land and farm locally, sustaining with solar to cut my costs, so that my community can eat something that isn't processed to shit by corn syrup conglomerates. I am 100% willing to become a high school civics teacher in a low cost of living area where there are not a lot of teachers clamoring for those jobs.

Why wouldn't I be willing to take those jobs? Is there something about those jobs that's beneath us?

Also lmao re: "not needing local farmers" in the middle of the supply chain crisis where meat and food costs are literally rising month over month because demand is so high while climate change literally destroys crop yields the world over.

fair enough. just wondering in case there are some 0Ls lurking, why go to law school if you're not interested in the law? why not do what you're actually interested in. if you wanted to make money why not do finance or tech out of undergrad? that way you could have avoided the pain of law school and biglaw

Trust me, going to law school is one of the biggest regrets of my life. I am extremely, extremely interested in the law. But being a lawyer has almost nothing to do with that, especially in BL. It's paper-pushing and profit-maximizing to the extent that your mental health will suffer. 40% of lawyers have substance abuse problems and I doubt we should be asking if it's "just because they aren't interested in the law," or "made a mistake going to law school." Every single day I wish that I'd stopped at my bachelor's. But, you know, the truth is, 4 years ago there was no global pandemic, there was no work-from-home, there was no threat to safety in returning to the office. There was time you could be offline (commuting, dinner, etc.) not just a long intractable push toward maximizing literally every second of your life for your firm's profit.

Truthfully, I think I could've survived a lot longer in big law if I was still the person that started law school or took the summer associate position. But so much has changed and it feels like I've been enlightened to see exactly how much of your life you will lose to these jobs never to get them back. Each day that I work over 10 hours I think to myself: "well that day is gone forever." I maybe never would've thought that way in 2019. But with aging and trauma comes more experience and maybe the wisdom to have better personal judgment regarding your own self-imposed expectations. I no longer seek perfection, just time to be in the now.

I don't think anyone who wants to be in the rat race fully is wrong for doing that, whatsoever! I hope all of the midlevels and seniors love their jobs and have happy lives. But, I do think that expecting everyone to be equally as gung-ho about a job when that job environment objectively treats its employees in poor ways is blatantly too much. It's odd that once people suffer through their junior years they endorse that suffering by imposing it on others even though they hated it themselves.

I am not a victim, I am a volunteer. But, facts are that I can't take my poor choice to go to law school back, only retool to use my degree in a way that helps my community thrive. Just gotta pay my debt down a bit so I stand a chance at feeling truly free & happy. My dream is to wake up and never feel that gut tightening that I feel on Sunday evening or Monday morning again. I hope that for all of you as well. I don't regret how much smarter, empathetic, and hard-working my degree taught me to be. I hope I can use the skills from it in my life to leave a better life for my future kids and their cohort. But, if there are 0Ls reading: I absolutely would not go to law school if I were given a do-over.

If you refuse to work more than 8 hours a day as a junior getting paid almost 250k, you should be fired. Ideally the associates who are currently having to do your job would be able to split your paycheck but alas.

[Anonymous User]

. We will always need local farmers. We will always need soldiers. We will always need government employees.

First, we don't need local farmers...

Is your plan to join the army or be a mailman?

I think what you're missing is that getting fired in a recession is pretty bad, because that's when everybody else is getting fired. That's what unemployment is. It's actually not always easy to find another job. The labor market doesn't clear. If you actually don't want to be in biglaw forever, now is probably the best possible time to get out.

I am 100% willing to be a farmer or a mailwoman. I am 100% willing to join JAG. I almost did join JAG. I am 100% willing to buy land and farm locally, sustaining with solar to cut my costs, so that my community can eat something that isn't processed to shit by corn syrup conglomerates. I am 100% willing to become a high school civics teacher in a low cost of living area where there are not a lot of teachers clamoring for those jobs.

Why wouldn't I be willing to take those jobs? Is there something about those jobs that's beneath us?

Also lmao re: "not needing local farmers" in the middle of the supply chain crisis where meat and food costs are literally rising month over month because demand is so high while climate change literally destroys crop yields the world over.

fair enough. just wondering in case there are some 0Ls lurking, why go to law school if you're not interested in the law? why not do what you're actually interested in. if you wanted to make money why not do finance or tech out of undergrad? that way you could have avoided the pain of law school and biglaw

Trust me, going to law school is one of the biggest regrets of my life. I am extremely, extremely interested in the law. But being a lawyer has almost nothing to do with that, especially in BL. It's paper-pushing and profit-maximizing to the extent that your mental health will suffer. 40% of lawyers have substance abuse problems and I doubt we should be asking if it's "just because they aren't interested in the law," or "made a mistake going to law school." Every single day I wish that I'd stopped at my bachelor's. But, you know, the truth is, 4 years ago there was no global pandemic, there was no work-from-home, there was no threat to safety in returning to the office. There was time you could be offline (commuting, dinner, etc.) not just a long intractable push toward maximizing literally every second of your life for your firm's profit.

Truthfully, I think I could've survived a lot longer in big law if I was still the person that started law school or took the summer associate position. But so much has changed and it feels like I've been enlightened to see exactly how much of your life you will lose to these jobs never to get them back. Each day that I work over 10 hours I think to myself: "well that day is gone forever." I maybe never would've thought that way in 2019. But with aging and trauma comes more experience and maybe the wisdom to have better personal judgment regarding your own self-imposed expectations. I no longer seek perfection, just time to be in the now.

I don't think anyone who wants to be in the rat race fully is wrong for doing that, whatsoever! I hope all of the midlevels and seniors love their jobs and have happy lives. But, I do think that expecting everyone to be equally as gung-ho about a job when that job environment objectively treats its employees in poor ways is blatantly too much. It's odd that once people suffer through their junior years they endorse that suffering by imposing it on others even though they hated it themselves.

I am not a victim, I am a volunteer. But, facts are that I can't take my poor choice to go to law school back, only retool to use my degree in a way that helps my community thrive. Just gotta pay my debt down a bit so I stand a chance at feeling truly free & happy. My dream is to wake up and never feel that gut tightening that I feel on Sunday evening or Monday morning again. I hope that for all of you as well. I don't regret how much smarter, empathetic, and hard-working my degree taught me to be. I hope I can use the skills from it in my life to leave a better life for my future kids and their cohort. But, if there are 0Ls reading: I absolutely would not go to law school if I were given a do-over.

If you refuse to work more than 8 hours a day as a junior getting paid almost 250k, you should be fired. Ideally the associates who are currently having to do your job would be able to split your paycheck but alas.

But 8 hours a day (assuming we are talking about billables and the OP is willing to do 8 hours a day every single weekday except of course vacation days) would be around 2000 hours a year? That’s not a low number. I just don’t see why he/she should be fired?

[Anonymous User]

I'm skeptical about the ability to get 8 hours every day, no more no less. Especially when you get a reputation as a slacker. Also can't really see how you can just turn everything off at 2pm until the next morning. Even in a normal job that's not possible. It hey, if this person cracked the code, more power to them, for the next few months at least.

Also not convinced an organic farm is feasible backup plan.

[The Lsat Airbender]

Also not convinced an organic farm is feasible backup plan.

nah I'm sure subsistence farming is totally an upgrade from V100 in terms of lifestyle and dignity

[Anonymous User]

So I guess the answer to the title of this thread is “hang out on TLS threads whining about having to work more than 8 hrs a day, and posting about their alternative plans for organic farming”.

[Anonymous User]

I'm skeptical about the ability to get 8 hours every day, no more no less. Especially when you get a reputation as a slacker. Also can't really see how you can just turn everything off at 2pm until the next morning. Even in a normal job that's not possible. It hey, if this person cracked the code, more power to them, for the next few months at least.

Also not convinced an organic farm is feasible backup plan.

I did not say I only worked 8 hours a day. I said I turned down extra work if I am already reaching 8 and do not volunteer for work that is beyond the normal work day. You can feel free to act like that's unreasonable but it is an expectation most people have for their jobs -- having some time to themselves.

I like how all of you are ignoring the options to become teachers or work for the government that I mentioned as though I said my only plan was exclusively to farm. Do you want to make fun of JAG or teaching high school and then applying for forgiveness after? Like those are unrealistic options to big law? Many people who farm land locally also own that same land. That sounds like a better deal than a 600 sq foot condo in a city now teeming with infections.

To me, it reads like all the commenters want to justify your choices to remain unhappy with your single lifetimes on earth and you are choosing to do this by making fun of or ignoring the options to do perfectly respectable professions that may not make 6 figures. :/ womp womp. You are all so enlightened and not at all classist. It definitely doesn't sound like you all look down on the people who serve you or help make society run in "less prestigious jobs." I bet you're all really fun people to be around in real life.

[Anonymous User]

I'm skeptical about the ability to get 8 hours every day, no more no less. Especially when you get a reputation as a slacker. Also can't really see how you can just turn everything off at 2pm until the next morning. Even in a normal job that's not possible. It hey, if this person cracked the code, more power to them, for the next few months at least.

Also not convinced an organic farm is feasible backup plan.

I did not say I only worked 8 hours a day. I said I turned down extra work if I am already reaching 8 and do not volunteer for work that is beyond the normal work day. You can feel free to act like that's unreasonable but it is an expectation most people have for their jobs -- having some time to themselves.

I like how all of you are ignoring the options to become teachers or work for the government that I mentioned as though I said my only plan was exclusively to farm. Do you want to make fun of JAG or teaching high school and then applying for forgiveness after? Like those are unrealistic options to big law? Many people who farm land locally also own that same land. That sounds like a better deal than a 600 sq foot condo in a city now teeming with infections.

To me, it reads like all the commenters want to justify your choices to remain unhappy with your single lifetimes on earth and you are choosing to do this by making fun of or ignoring the options to do perfectly respectable professions that may not make 6 figures. :/ womp womp. You are all so enlightened and not at all classist. It definitely doesn't sound like you all look down on the people who serve you or help make society run in "less prestigious jobs." I bet you're all really fun people to be around in real life.

How many hours a day do you work then? How much do you bill weekly/monthly/annually? Just curious to get a better picture of your story.

I didn't comment on the jag/teacher options because they are fine options. I'm not sure where you're getting classism from me but whatever.

[Anonymous User]

I'm skeptical about the ability to get 8 hours every day, no more no less. Especially when you get a reputation as a slacker. Also can't really see how you can just turn everything off at 2pm until the next morning. Even in a normal job that's not possible. It hey, if this person cracked the code, more power to them, for the next few months at least.

Also not convinced an organic farm is feasible backup plan.

I did not say I only worked 8 hours a day. I said I turned down extra work if I am already reaching 8 and do not volunteer for work that is beyond the normal work day. You can feel free to act like that's unreasonable but it is an expectation most people have for their jobs -- having some time to themselves.

I like how all of you are ignoring the options to become teachers or work for the government that I mentioned as though I said my only plan was exclusively to farm. Do you want to make fun of JAG or teaching high school and then applying for forgiveness after? Like those are unrealistic options to big law? Many people who farm land locally also own that same land. That sounds like a better deal than a 600 sq foot condo in a city now teeming with infections.

To me, it reads like all the commenters want to justify your choices to remain unhappy with your single lifetimes on earth and you are choosing to do this by making fun of or ignoring the options to do perfectly respectable professions that may not make 6 figures. :/ womp womp. You are all so enlightened and not at all classist. It definitely doesn't sound like you all look down on the people who serve you or help make society run in "less prestigious jobs." I bet you're all really fun people to be around in real life.

How many hours a day do you work then? How much do you bill weekly/monthly/annually? Just curious to get a better picture of your story.

I didn't comment on the jag/teacher options because they are fine options. I'm not sure where you're getting classism from me but whatever.

Not necessarily from you but it's just easier to quote the last responder. A bunch of the replies were obviously classist, in my opinion, and designed to exaggerate the "ludicrous" nature of working not for profit but for subsistence. There are long ancient sophistic traditions that have long eschewed the instinct to constantly compete for and acquire needless shit.

I often work in excess of 10+ hours a day which sometimes puts me at 6pm. However, when I am able to unplug after 8 and have handed in all my work I often do without even worrying if something comes in. When it does I handle it in the morning. It hasn't caused any issues.

In October I worked 250 hours. In November I worked around 150. In December I worked around 130 (so far). As I said, I am doing absolutely fine with my job and have had NO adverse effects. You can't always control how much you work but you can prune your work-life aggressively to ensure that you are absolutely not taking on any more than you are at capacity to take. I try to protect my off time with a very zealous effort. My goal is to average 8 hours a day. Do I always achieve it? No. If I did I probably wouldn't want to desperately leave this job and I will within the next 2 years.

[Anonymous User]

I'm skeptical about the ability to get 8 hours every day, no more no less. Especially when you get a reputation as a slacker. Also can't really see how you can just turn everything off at 2pm until the next morning. Even in a normal job that's not possible. It hey, if this person cracked the code, more power to them, for the next few months at least.

Also not convinced an organic farm is feasible backup plan.

I did not say I only worked 8 hours a day. I said I turned down extra work if I am already reaching 8 and do not volunteer for work that is beyond the normal work day. You can feel free to act like that's unreasonable but it is an expectation most people have for their jobs -- having some time to themselves.

I like how all of you are ignoring the options to become teachers or work for the government that I mentioned as though I said my only plan was exclusively to farm. Do you want to make fun of JAG or teaching high school and then applying for forgiveness after? Like those are unrealistic options to big law? Many people who farm land locally also own that same land. That sounds like a better deal than a 600 sq foot condo in a city now teeming with infections.

To me, it reads like all the commenters want to justify your choices to remain unhappy with your single lifetimes on earth and you are choosing to do this by making fun of or ignoring the options to do perfectly respectable professions that may not make 6 figures. :/ womp womp. You are all so enlightened and not at all classist. It definitely doesn't sound like you all look down on the people who serve you or help make society run in "less prestigious jobs." I bet you're all really fun people to be around in real life.

How many hours a day do you work then? How much do you bill weekly/monthly/annually? Just curious to get a better picture of your story.

I didn't comment on the jag/teacher options because they are fine options. I'm not sure where you're getting classism from me but whatever.

Not necessarily from you but it's just easier to quote the last responder. A bunch of the replies were obviously classist, in my opinion, and designed to exaggerate the "ludicrous" nature of working not for profit but for subsistence. There are long ancient sophistic traditions that have long eschewed the instinct to constantly compete for and acquire needless shit.

I often work in excess of 10+ hours a day which sometimes puts me at 6pm. However, when I am able to unplug after 8 and have handed in all my work I often do without even worrying if something comes in. When it does I handle it in the morning. It hasn't caused any issues.

In October I worked 250 hours. In November I worked around 150. In December I worked around 130 (so far). As I said, I am doing absolutely fine with my job and have had NO adverse effects. You can't always control how much you work but you can prune your work-life aggressively to ensure that you are absolutely not taking on any more than you are at capacity to take. I try to protect my off time with a very zealous effort. My goal is to average 8 hours a day. Do I always achieve it? No. If I did I probably wouldn't want to desperately leave this job and I will within the next 2 years.

That sounds VERY different from your OP. That averages to 2100 a year.

[Anonymous User]

I'm skeptical about the ability to get 8 hours every day, no more no less. Especially when you get a reputation as a slacker. Also can't really see how you can just turn everything off at 2pm until the next morning. Even in a normal job that's not possible. It hey, if this person cracked the code, more power to them, for the next few months at least.

Also not convinced an organic farm is feasible backup plan.

I did not say I only worked 8 hours a day. I said I turned down extra work if I am already reaching 8 and do not volunteer for work that is beyond the normal work day. You can feel free to act like that's unreasonable but it is an expectation most people have for their jobs -- having some time to themselves.

I like how all of you are ignoring the options to become teachers or work for the government that I mentioned as though I said my only plan was exclusively to farm. Do you want to make fun of JAG or teaching high school and then applying for forgiveness after? Like those are unrealistic options to big law? Many people who farm land locally also own that same land. That sounds like a better deal than a 600 sq foot condo in a city now teeming with infections.

To me, it reads like all the commenters want to justify your choices to remain unhappy with your single lifetimes on earth and you are choosing to do this by making fun of or ignoring the options to do perfectly respectable professions that may not make 6 figures. :/ womp womp. You are all so enlightened and not at all classist. It definitely doesn't sound like you all look down on the people who serve you or help make society run in "less prestigious jobs." I bet you're all really fun people to be around in real life.

I'm from a HCOL area, my family lives in a HCOL area, I don't want to leave this area and have to provide for my family. Don't get me wrong I'm not a biglaw lifer. I will do this job until an attractive inhouse position opens up that pays enough to cover my expenses and adequately save for retirement. All in all though being paid $400k+ as a 5th year to do this job isn't that bad and not worth complaining about.