What's Happening to Incompetent Corporate Associates These Days? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I've been working with a completely incompetent 1st year associate on a deal recently, and it occurred to me that I can't recall the last time my firm fired a corporate associate. Prior to Covid, they would push out 1-2 junior associates a year for complete incompetence, and then encourage a larger number to leave by just depriving them of work and making it clear to them that they were bottom of the barrel. Obviously the latter isn't happening now, but I don't think the former is happening either.

What's happening to incompetent corporate associates these days? Do they just get strung along so they can help reduce work load for others until a culling becomes feasible again? Are any firms still firing / pushing out associates?

[jotarokujo]

I've been working with a completely incompetent 1st year associate on a deal recently, and it occurred to me that I can't recall the last time my firm fired a corporate associate. Prior to Covid, they would push out 1-2 junior associates a year for complete incompetence, and then encourage a larger number to leave by just depriving them of work and making it clear to them that they were bottom of the barrel. Obviously the latter isn't happening now, but I don't think the former is happening either.

What's happening to incompetent corporate associates these days? Do they just get strung along so they can help reduce work load for others until a culling becomes feasible again? Are any firms still firing / pushing out associates?

i think feedback has been decreased during covid. no empirics to support this but that's my intuition. plus first years this year may have started late this year at your firm, as they did at most firms, so rather than having ~14 months experience, they only have 10 or 11 months of experience right now, the first few months of which they probably didnt learn much because of onboarding. so if you subtract 3 months of onboarding, it's like 10 months of experience vs 7. so this years 1st years are objectively going to be less competent

[legalpotato]

They are getting large bonuses and then complaining about the bonuses on TLS.

Make no mistake, biglaw will have its revenge. I suspect there will be some pretty brutal layoffs or stealths once things slow down. But for now, live it up!

[LBJ's Hair]

2 months of experience or 14? I wouldn't trust someone 2 months in to do signature pages tbh

[jotarokujo]

2 months of experience or 14? I wouldn't trust someone 2 months in to do signature pages tbh

i'd assume 14 if they're talking about incompetence. unless they think should be experienced just from law school clinics

[AureliusCapital]

You are learning more and getting more responsibility so everyone else seems useless and dumb. Don't forget where you came from.

[Anonymous User]

Jeez, I hope you're not the asshole senior I work with who doesn't respond to emails or answer questions. The person is a first year, give them a damn break.

[AlbertParsons]

Lmaooo. Seriously. I mean I accept we stubs are incompetent but what do folks expect. I feel like I’ve struggled on assignments because seniors/partners don’t give clear instructions and don’t respond to emails.

[Anonymous User]

I've been working with a completely incompetent 1st year associate on a deal recently

I feel like some context is needed before anyone gives you the benefit of the doubt.

[Anonymous User]

I've been working with a completely incompetent 1st year associate on a deal recently

I feel like some context is needed before anyone gives you the benefit of the doubt.

Why? Is it somehow not believable that a first year is incompetent?

[Anonymous User]

Why? Is it somehow not believable that a first year is incompetent?

Until "incompetent" is defined, probably, given that first-years are entry-level positions in a technical field for which their "technical" education provides little guidance.

[Anonymous User]

OP do you find that all juniors are incompetent? Perhaps they are particularly busy when you specifically need them?

[Anonymous User]

Not limited to corporate associates. Working with litigation associates who have done next to no work, ignored emails and calls, etc. for several months while others are crushed. How does this happen?

[Anonymous User]

Why? Is it somehow not believable that a first year is incompetent?

Until "incompetent" is defined, probably, given that first-years are entry-level positions in a technical field for which their "technical" education provides little guidance.

Well given that we’re all speaking English, we can assume OP used “incompetent” to means what it usually means? Sorry to offend the junior population on here, but plenty of first years are obviously and immediately “inadequate to or unsuitable for [the] particular purpose [of being a biglaw associate]”. Doesn’t make them bad people, just statistically lots of them are not good at their jobs.

[Anonymous User]

OP do you find that all juniors are incompetent? Perhaps they are particularly busy when you specifically need them?

Nobody expects 1st years to know anything substantive, but there are some you work with that are incompetent at basic skills like communication or problem solving that have nothing to do with the subject matter.

Some of it is a k-jd thing but some people just never get it. It is very obvious almost immediately.

[Anonymous User]

I've been working with a completely incompetent 1st year associate on a deal recently

I feel like some context is needed before anyone gives you the benefit of the doubt.

Why? Is it somehow not believable that a first year is incompetent?

Well, the OP said the associate was “completely” incompetent, and not just simply incompetent. There is a greater expectation that associates are the latter rather than the former, given the learning curve and ramp up period, which is why I think additional detail would be helpful.

[LBJ's Hair]

OP do you find that all juniors are incompetent? Perhaps they are particularly busy when you specifically need them?

Nobody expects 1st years to know anything substantive, but there are some you work with that are incompetent at basic skills like communication or problem solving that have nothing to do with the subject matter.

Some of it is a k-jd thing but some people just never get it. It is very obvious almost immediately.

I get there's a range, but most first years are bad. they learn. welcome to being a mid, you manage people who think EDGAR is a person

if it's malicious different story (blowing you off deliberately etc), but even basic attention-to-detail, email responsiveness, lack of substantive knowledge...all stuff people end up picking up by doing professional services, not by sitting in a classroom

it's frustrating, and not saying there are never awesome juniors. occasionally you get the ex-McKinsey person who's phenomenal from the get-go. would assume most people have never worked in a law firm-like envmt though and there will be hiccups along the way

[Sad248]

Lmaooo. Seriously. I mean I accept we stubs are incompetent but what do folks expect. I feel like I’ve struggled on assignments because seniors/partners don’t give clear instructions and don’t respond to emails.

A few years in, I think this is the main issue in biglaw. Yes, juniors don't really know stuff, but it can all be addressed by clear assignments. Law isn't rocket science, it's ultimately pretty simple stuff and we aren't asking juniors to try and persuade SCOTUS to overrule precedent. Most of the time (and I've done so myself as well, while delegating) the assignment delegated down is just unbelievably unclear. I definitely put in a few dozen hours a year because I had to redo assignments had to figure out what the hell the associate/partner wanted on my own.

[Anonymous User]

Lmaooo. Seriously. I mean I accept we stubs are incompetent but what do folks expect. I feel like I’ve struggled on assignments because seniors/partners don’t give clear instructions and don’t respond to emails.

A few years in, I think this is the main issue in biglaw. Yes, juniors don't really know stuff, but it can all be addressed by clear assignments. Law isn't rocket science, it's ultimately pretty simple stuff and we aren't asking juniors to try and persuade SCOTUS to overrule precedent. Most of the time (and I've done so myself as well, while delegating) the assignment delegated down is just unbelievably unclear. I definitely put in a few dozen hours a year because I had to redo assignments had to figure out what the hell the associate/partner wanted on my own.

I am a junior and I couldn’t agree more. Do things get better sooner or later?

[Lesion of Doom]

Stubs are dealing not only with a foreign work experience but also the stress of stepping into very busy practices where no one has time to train them. And doing so remotely. I sucked my entire first year and that was in the office.

All I ask is that they are responsive and have a good attitude. Some will progress and some won't, and associates both competent and incompetent will continue quitting in droves over the next 12 months.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Incompetent senior associate here. What's happening is, I'm clearing $500k while working less than better, more in-demand associates.

[Anonymous User]

Can someone please translate into plain English what “good attitude” means?

[lawlo]

At what point do incompetent juniors get pushed out after their first year? Looking at LinkedIn, you'd think you'd see more obvious cases but most people seem to land another big law job when they move.

[Anonymous User]

At what point do incompetent juniors get pushed out after their first year? Looking at LinkedIn, you'd think you'd see more obvious cases but most people seem to land another big law job when they move.

In this market, those laterals are likely for signing bonus, not being pushed out.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

At what point do incompetent juniors get pushed out after their first year? Looking at LinkedIn, you'd think you'd see more obvious cases but most people seem to land another big law job when they move.

It shouldn't really be any harder for anyone pushed out to find another Biglaw job than a similarly situated "star" associate, because firms have no way of really gauging your performance at your last firm (unless they actually bother to call your references, which they rarely do, and even when they do people will usually just say "X was fine" because they don't like admitting they employed a shitty associate for as long as they did).