Better to go Big Law or Specialty Shops forL&E? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Apologies for typos. Typing on phone. Is it better for junior (or any level associates) to go work in Big Law or a L&E only shop like Ogletree, Littler, Jackson Lewis? I’ve heard Big Law L&E associate just research and don’t do much else like take a deposition until 5th or 6th year? Can I get insights on pros and cons of each?

[Anonymous User]

There are tens of thousands of reasons to choose big law, if you care about money.

[The Lsat Airbender]

Define "better". What are your career goals? Plenty of reasonable people pick one over the other in both directions.

[Anonymous User]

I guess better in the sense of good work-life balance while making decent money and getting the training necessary to be a good L&E attorney. Like I mentioned, I'm concerned about Big Law and not getting training beyond just writing memos and such until I get super senior (assuming I even make it that far since I hear they cut people each year?)

[tyroneslothrop1]

Biglaw is the better option. The difference is comp is enormous, e.g., a 5th year in biglaw probably earns 75 - 100K more than a 5th year at Littler. There's also no guarantee the lifestyle will be any better at a specialty shop. While, on average, you'll get more early experience at a specialty shop - because the cases are smaller and less is at stake - you'll have plenty of time to get experience over your 40 year career. You can always lateral from big law to specialty shop.

[Anonymous User]

Thank you! As far as years though, how many years in Big Law would one need to spend before becoming marketable? Like if we had to break it down by year (e.g., 1st years learn memos, 2nd years learn discovery, 3rd years learn depos) what would that look like?

[Anonymous User]

I can’t speak to L&E work in big law (I switched/focused my practice area after switching) but I was at one of Ogletree/Littler/Jackson Lewis before switching to a V50. I would go big law.

In my experience, the speciality shops are really starting to becoming very EPLI/Insurance defense heavy. You will get a ton of experience very quickly - folks in my office were sitting second chair in trial and arbitration within the first 18 months of working at the firm. Lots of client contact, and you’ll probably be defending depositions within a year, and maybe taking some deps within 2. But as another user pointed out, the vast majority of your work will be single plaintiff and low value (<$50-100k) matters (or wage and hour class action work).

Also, the work life balance is really not that different at all considering the pay difference. I know littler just raised salaries (and idk what the new rates are) but I received a roughly $50k raise when I switched from the speciality shop to Big Law (not including bonus, which some speciality L&E shops do not give to juniors).

All of that being said, speciality shops will give you a really good shot at making partner (but from what I understand, non-equity partners at the speciality firm I was with were making ~$250k) and/or going in house as an employment lawyer. But The in house point is probably moot, because working for a few years doing L&E at (for example) Morgan Lewis will probably set you up for in house just as well if not better.

Apologies for typos, on mobile.

[ChickenSalad]

Base salary is obviously very different but bonuses make the difference *huge.* If you do 5 years in each, you are probably 500k ahead in biglaw (in part because of mid-level bonuses).

Lifestyle is probably the same at both places. L&E shops have low hourly rates but that generally means volume and single plaintiff cases. Big law is always going to be a lot of hours.

I'm sure that associates at L&E shops get a lot of experience early, more so than biglaw. (biglaw associates typically do pro bono to get that experience early, which counts for billable credit. That's less consistent though and it's hard to get depo experience in pro bono). You still do a lot of brief writing in big law, even early. Don't count on depositions

In terms of exit options, doing biglaw L&E is at least as helpful in going in house as Littler/Ogletree/etc. and probably better

[Anonymous User]

OP here - thank you both so much for that insight!

For the anon who went from a L&E boutique to Big Law, are you seeing a lot longer/unpredictable hours/non-billable expectations/just general stress? I've heard you are expected to be available 24/7 and do a lot of non-billable stuff in addition to just doing billable work and that it wears folks down quickly, but that people can get more regular M-F 9-5pm at the boutiques?

ChickenSalad - Do you have insight on the worklife balance piece comparing L&E boutique with Big Law? I've heard many Big Law horror stories (many here and many in person) and am naturally concerned about it. I have friend who work in insurance defense and they never talk about non-billables. They seem to just knock out their billable work and go home and rarely work nights and seem to never work weekends. I realize insurance defense is completely different than Big Law, but it does sound nice to not be strung up 24/7 (at least that's the impression I keep getting about Big Law)

Is it hard to secure a job outside of Big Law if you get pushed out of Big Law before you get senior enough to take depos and really handle the cases?

Do people get pushed out of Big Law at like the senior years? Like 5th or 6th year? One of my friends who went to law school ahead of me said his class year got pushed out except for a small core group and the firms did that by not giving them enough work so their performance dropped?

[Anonymous User]

Start in BigLaw, but try to find a group that focuses on L&E litigation/counseling rather than predominantly L&E transactional work (ask your interviewers to give you percentages of how much litigation/counseling/transactional work they do). Assuming you get a litigation-based L&E position, then you can always transition to a boutique later. But if you start at a boutique now, you would not necessarily be able to trade up. In my city (not in California or NYC), Littler ALWAYS has an opening for a mid-level associate, but it’s rare to see BigLaw L&E openings. It won’t be a big deal if you have less deposition experience. The pay difference is huge, so go for the money while you can.

In my BigLaw L&E group, it’s very difficult to make partner, so I’ll likely have to move to a boutique in the next couple years (I’m currently an 8th/9th year). Poor performers get let go after a few years, but good and even average associates often stick around until they get pushed out around year 10 or so if they aren’t going to make partner.

[Anonymous User]

Start in BigLaw, but try to find a group that focuses on L&E litigation/counseling rather than predominantly L&E transactional work (ask your interviewers to give you percentages of how much litigation/counseling/transactional work they do). Assuming you get a litigation-based L&E position, then you can always transition to a boutique later. But if you start at a boutique now, you would not necessarily be able to trade up. In my city (not in California or NYC), Littler ALWAYS has an opening for a mid-level associate, but it’s rare to see BigLaw L&E openings. It won’t be a big deal if you have less deposition experience. The pay difference is huge, so go for the money while you can.

In my BigLaw L&E group, it’s very difficult to make partner, so I’ll likely have to move to a boutique in the next couple years (I’m currently an 8th/9th year). Poor performers get let go after a few years, but good and even average associates often stick around until they get pushed out around year 10 or so if they aren’t going to make partner.

This is really helpful, thanks! Do you recommend looking into any particular firms that have that balance? (I'm assuming the litigation/counseling balance is better than pure transactional/counseling) Wow 8th/9th year. You've been in Big law that long? How do you put up with the 24/7 that people talk about? I feel like I'd lose my mind if I didn't have evenings and weekends to myself without worrying about a "ding dong" email and project situation. Is it better for you to move and become a partner or would you stay in Big Law and not be "partner"?

Also, would you mind sharing some examples of types of things you do in your practice?

[ChickenSalad]

OP here - thank you both so much for that insight!

For the anon who went from a L&E boutique to Big Law, are you seeing a lot longer/unpredictable hours/non-billable expectations/just general stress? I've heard you are expected to be available 24/7 and do a lot of non-billable stuff in addition to just doing billable work and that it wears folks down quickly, but that people can get more regular M-F 9-5pm at the boutiques?

ChickenSalad - Do you have insight on the worklife balance piece comparing L&E boutique with Big Law? I've heard many Big Law horror stories (many here and many in person) and am naturally concerned about it. I have friend who work in insurance defense and they never talk about non-billables. They seem to just knock out their billable work and go home and rarely work nights and seem to never work weekends. I realize insurance defense is completely different than Big Law, but it does sound nice to not be strung up 24/7 (at least that's the impression I keep getting about Big Law)

Is it hard to secure a job outside of Big Law if you get pushed out of Big Law before you get senior enough to take depos and really handle the cases?

Do people get pushed out of Big Law at like the senior years? Like 5th or 6th year? One of my friends who went to law school ahead of me said his class year got pushed out except for a small core group and the firms did that by not giving them enough work so their performance dropped?

Big law hours are what they are. You get used to it. You're paid 200k+ as a first year big law associate with no experience because of the hours. Insurance defense is a different type of grind and I found it dull and uninteresting (this was several years ago when i last did it). The larger cases are more interesting and more sophisticated. It's also kind of cool to see your cases in the paper, even if you're not really involved at a high level.

Juniors shouldn't get pushed out in their first 2-3 years. I haven't seen that personally unless the firm is struggling or there is something wrong with the associate (i.e. he or she can't work with others or is shockingly incompetent). The expectations for juniors are really low. As for experience and being able to lateral, years 3-5 are the most marketable and that's the easiest time to make a move.

In my experience, people leave on their own, though that could be in part because they are gently shown the door or see the signs. But when the firm tells you that you need to look somewhere else, they often keep you on board for 2-3 months, pay you during that time, keep you on the website, and you're winding down so you aren't picking up new work. It's about as gentle as it can be unless you're getting terminated for cause.

On big law firms being "up or out," I don't think that's as much of a thing anymore. (Famous last words from a senior associate at the end of the year before reviews). I work with a lot of associates who are well past their 8th year. If you're a good lawyer and you're making a lot of money for the firm, you can stay a long time from what I can tell.

I said it before but I should stress that the difference in money between big law and the L&E shops is very real. The starting salaries at Littler/Ogletree/etc. seem close enough to first year biglaw. It's 30-40k less in your first year and you're right that isn't a huge difference- it's not enough of a reason to pick one over the other. But salary compresses quickly and raises are 5k a year at L&E shops, maybe 10k. So while a 5th year L&E associate may make 195k and a bonus of 15-20k, a biglaw fifth year is making 305k and a bonus of 80k (not counting the covid bonuses). By late mid-level and senior associate years, the salary is almost twice as much than L&E shops. In terms of paying off student loans, making a down payment on a house, saving for retirement, etc., it's very very real.

Personally, given the type of work, the pay difference, etc., I can't imagine taking an L&E shop over big law. But other people have different goals. If you want depo experience and case management responsibility at an earlier time in your career, L&E shops are a good place to go.

[Anonymous User]

Thank you! I really appreciate this insight. It sounds like it takes a while to develop a "full" set of skills in Big Law. What if I get booted in 2 years or less (or any time before I get to the "full" set of skills I would otherwise develop at a L&E boutique? Does that mean it'll be harder for me to find a job in anything outside of Big Law or even within Big Law?

Finally, how much non-billable stuff do people have to do? Are the bonuses actually attainable or is it only for the big practice groups like commercial litigation and corporate transactions?

[Anonymous User]

I worked at an L&E specialty firm for a few years and would take big law in a heartbeat. Associates worked roughly the same as any big law firm (average was about 1950-2200) but we all got paid dramatically less. I'm talking six figures less. You'll get more substantive experience, but you'll also be expected to churn out work on dozens of cases. They are increasingly becoming EPLI only mills. So on top of everything else, you have to deal with insurance carriers, which is the most boring, tedious nonsense. Overall my experience was pretty garbage. I have no respect for my former firm. It's a mill with a constant revolving door for a reason.

[Anonymous User]

I worked at an L&E specialty firm for a few years and would take big law in a heartbeat. Associates worked roughly the same as any big law firm (average was about 1950-2200) but we all got paid dramatically less. I'm talking six figures less. You'll get more substantive experience, but you'll also be expected to churn out work on dozens of cases. They are increasingly becoming EPLI only mills. So on top of everything else, you have to deal with insurance carriers, which is the most boring, tedious nonsense. Overall my experience was pretty garbage. I have no respect for my former firm. It's a mill with a constant revolving door for a reason.

So you're in big law now? Still L&E? What's the experience like? Do you mind sharing which L&E firm you worked for (if it won't out yourself of course)? More importantly, were you expected to be on-call at nights and weekends? Or were you able to keep a fairly 9-5pm M-F schedule? I have a friend who worked for an EPLI mill and she said she never works weekends and just does billable work so never worrying about non-billable work. On the otherhand, I have a friend in Big Law L&E but says they just do advice and counsel and are expected to reply/be available every day (including weekends and evenings) and that it's a mess. They are a smaller department though. I think they have like 6 people in their office that practices L&E and then about same number across the other offices.

[Lacepiece23]

Biglaw is the better option. The difference is comp is enormous, e.g., a 5th year in biglaw probably earns 75 - 100K more than a 5th year at Littler. There's also no guarantee the lifestyle will be any better at a specialty shop. While, on average, you'll get more early experience at a specialty shop - because the cases are smaller and less is at stake - you'll have plenty of time to get experience over your 40 year career. You can always lateral from big law to specialty shop.

It’s way more than 75k, pick biglaw.

[Anonymous User]

Biglaw is the better option. The difference is comp is enormous, e.g., a 5th year in biglaw probably earns 75 - 100K more than a 5th year at Littler. There's also no guarantee the lifestyle will be any better at a specialty shop. While, on average, you'll get more early experience at a specialty shop - because the cases are smaller and less is at stake - you'll have plenty of time to get experience over your 40 year career. You can always lateral from big law to specialty shop.

It’s way more than 75k, pick biglaw.

Worth the lifestyle difference? Anyone recommend any L&E practice groups in the Bay Area or So Cal? (The two areas I'm considering)

[Anonymous User]

I worked at an L&E specialty firm for a few years and would take big law in a heartbeat. Associates worked roughly the same as any big law firm (average was about 1950-2200) but we all got paid dramatically less. I'm talking six figures less. You'll get more substantive experience, but you'll also be expected to churn out work on dozens of cases. They are increasingly becoming EPLI only mills. So on top of everything else, you have to deal with insurance carriers, which is the most boring, tedious nonsense. Overall my experience was pretty garbage. I have no respect for my former firm. It's a mill with a constant revolving door for a reason.

So you're in big law now? Still L&E? What's the experience like? Do you mind sharing which L&E firm you worked for (if it won't out yourself of course)? More importantly, were you expected to be on-call at nights and weekends? Or were you able to keep a fairly 9-5pm M-F schedule? I have a friend who worked for an EPLI mill and she said she never works weekends and just does billable work so never worrying about non-billable work. On the otherhand, I have a friend in Big Law L&E but says they just do advice and counsel and are expected to reply/be available every day (including weekends and evenings) and that it's a mess. They are a smaller department though. I think they have like 6 people in their office that practices L&E and then about same number across the other offices.

I did not work insane hours like some friends at my firm and other firms, but I worked most evenings and almost always on weekends, albeit not full days most of the time. It really depended on the case and the partner. I had only a couple 280-300 hour months because of trials. As for being on call, yes, I felt on call 24/7. Again, it varied with partners, but you were expected to be willing and able to drop everything and work on stuff at night and weekends. But L&E litigation is generally pretty predictable so there weren't a whole lot of fire drills. They were usually caused by partners having poor time management and not giving a shit if they were ruining your evening or weekend.

[takeyamockingbird]

Worth the lifestyle difference? Anyone recommend any L&E practice groups in the Bay Area or So Cal? (The two areas I'm considering)

Off the top of my head: Baker McKenzie, Morgan Lewis, Paul Hastings, Proskauer, Sheppard Mullin.

[Anonymous User]

biglaw and its not close. like others said, the other shops are starting to develop reps as insurance defense mills essentially with gutter rates.

i'd prefer a strong local and reputable midlaw that has a strong l&e pratice over the littlers and jackson lewis types.

[Anonymous User]

biglaw and its not close. like others said, the other shops are starting to develop reps as insurance defense mills essentially with gutter rates.

i'd prefer a strong local and reputable midlaw that has a strong l&e pratice over the littlers and jackson lewis types.

Would you happen to know any in San Francisco Bay Area?

[Anonymous User]

Worth the lifestyle difference? Anyone recommend any L&E practice groups in the Bay Area or So Cal? (The two areas I'm considering)

Off the top of my head: Baker McKenzie, Morgan Lewis, Paul Hastings, Proskauer, Sheppard Mullin.

Greenberg Traurig has a solid CA practice. So does Orrick.

[Anonymous User]

Worth the lifestyle difference? Anyone recommend any L&E practice groups in the Bay Area or So Cal? (The two areas I'm considering)

Off the top of my head: Baker McKenzie, Morgan Lewis, Paul Hastings, Proskauer, Sheppard Mullin.

Greenberg Traurig has a solid CA practice. So does Orrick.

Thanks! When we say solid, I assume we mean they have a big and established practice, but of these groups in the San Francisco Bay Area, do you all have insight on which teams operate more work-life balance like regular Monday to Friday 8-5pm idea without the expectation of 24/7 standby on evenings and weekends?

[Anonymous User]

I think you have unrealistic expectations for hours.