Latest Intel on NC Firms Forum

[Fozzyfuzzy]

I’m thinking about leaving NY biglaw to move to North Carolina. No real preference on Charlotte vs the triangle. Can anyone give me the latest intel on NC firms (both biglaw satellites and the NC-based firms) as I start to more closely evaluate the move? Any info on firm prestige, culture, hours, comp, etc. would be much appreciated!

[Fozzyfuzzy]

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[Anonymous User]

A bit of broad question that's tough to answer without any more specifics. RTP and Charlotte are two pretty different legal markets (as well as cities). Charlotte is largely driven by the banks, so both local and satellite firms tend to be finance-skewed. RTP a little bit more tech/IP-based. However, both cities are growing rapidly, so not easy to paint with a broad-brush, but you're practice are may influence which of the two cities makes more sense. Comp is a little all over the place, though many of the firms are moving closer to a NY-scale (so cost-adjusted, it can be a pretty good gig).

[Lesion of Doom]

Historically, top students at UNC And Wake (some from Duke) fight over jobs at the top regionals like Robinson Bradshaw (Charlotte) and Smith Anderson (Raleigh). And granted my information is dated, but last I heard they would start at around 145k

But with satellites increasingly offering NYC scale, that’s undoubtedly applying pressure on the regionals. I wonder how current students are thinking about it.

There’s still a clearer path to partnership at regionals from what I understand and maybe slightly better QoL, though.

As noted above, I would first take stock of whether you like Charlotte or RTP better. They are very different.

[Anonymous User]

I've worked at both a NY biglaw satellite and a regional (think Moore & Van Allen, Parker Poe, etc.) in Charlotte. The biglaw satellite paid NY market, but work was fairly niche and work life balance arguably sucked. The regional paid very close to NY market (about 10k ish less for my class year), was a lot less demanding, and the work was actually more interesting.

[Anonymous User]

I've worked at both a NY biglaw satellite and a regional (think Moore & Van Allen, Parker Poe, etc.) in Charlotte. The biglaw satellite paid NY market, but work was fairly niche and work life balance arguably sucked. The regional paid very close to NY market (about 10k ish less for my class year), was a lot less demanding, and the work was actually more interesting.

Curious when this was? I'd be shocked if MVA etc. are within $10k-ish of current NYC market all-in comp, especially for midlevel and up. My understanding is that regional firms have a more compressed scale.

[Anonymous User]

I've worked at both a NY biglaw satellite and a regional (think Moore & Van Allen, Parker Poe, etc.) in Charlotte. The biglaw satellite paid NY market, but work was fairly niche and work life balance arguably sucked. The regional paid very close to NY market (about 10k ish less for my class year), was a lot less demanding, and the work was actually more interesting.

Curious when this was? I'd be shocked if MVA etc. are within $10k-ish of current NYC market all-in comp, especially for midlevel and up. My understanding is that regional firms have a more compressed scale.

I know the regionals have moved up, but last I checked the pay discrepancy at the upper-mid-to-senior levels was well into the six figure range (if not 2-3x or more). I moved back to an NY-market paying satellite pre-pandemic.

Lifestyle is substantially worse at the satellite, but my lifestyle at the regional was substantially worse than that of my in-house counterparts, and, in my experience, associate positions at the regional firms are closer to in-house pay than NY-market pay.

It is an odd market, the old thread (the "Definitive List" one) is still a pretty apt summary of the major players and the two distinct markets, but both Charlotte and the Triangle are growing rapidly, remote work is an option now and I would expect for new players to enter the market rapidly in the new year and beyond assuming no new developments with the pandemic.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a 6th year at one of these regionals and base pay right now is 305k (it recently went up). A bit lower than NY but not material especially factoring in cost of living. Bonus is lower than NY for sure, but slightly better hours.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a 6th year at one of these regionals and base pay right now is 305k (it recently went up). A bit lower than NY but not material especially factoring in cost of living. Bonus is lower than NY for sure, but slightly better hours.

Right, but the bonus counts in comp comparison. Weird to say the difference isn't material because the base is close when NYC market bonus for a 6th year is $149,200 (assuming same end of year bonus as last year). And again, we're talking about firms paying NYC market in Charlotte so cost of living doesn't really factor in here.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a 6th year at one of these regionals and base pay right now is 305k (it recently went up). A bit lower than NY but not material especially factoring in cost of living. Bonus is lower than NY for sure, but slightly better hours.

Right, but the bonus counts in comp comparison. Weird to say the difference isn't material because the base is close when NYC market bonus for a 6th year is $149,200 (assuming same end of year bonus as last year). And again, we're talking about firms paying NYC market in Charlotte so cost of living doesn't really factor in here.

Same Anon as quoted - I am not disagreeing with ya, just answering OP’s question. I will say, I have not heard of that level of bonus for NY satellites in NC. From what I’ve heard, the base pay for these satellites is market, but bonus tend not to be. I could be wrong, these are just anecdotes from friends. Also, if helpful for OP’s process, I can say from experience that you have (significantly) more more longevity at a regional than at these satellites.

[Anonymous User]

Same Anon as quoted - I am not disagreeing with ya, just answering OP’s question. I will say, I have not heard of that level of bonus for NY satellites in NC. From what I’ve heard, the base pay for these satellites is market, but bonus tend not to be. I could be wrong, these are just anecdotes from friends. Also, if helpful for OP’s process, I can say from experience that you have (significantly) more more longevity at a regional than at these satellites.

Different anon. CWT Charlotte, at least, is paying full NYC bonuses on top of NYC base.

[Lesion of Doom]

Seems like it will be compensation offered by the satellites vs the slightly(?) improved work-life balance, improved partnership prospects and connection to the community (which can matter in NC).

[Anonymous User]

Same Anon as quoted - I am not disagreeing with ya, just answering OP’s question. I will say, I have not heard of that level of bonus for NY satellites in NC. From what I’ve heard, the base pay for these satellites is market, but bonus tend not to be. I could be wrong, these are just anecdotes from friends. Also, if helpful for OP’s process, I can say from experience that you have (significantly) more more longevity at a regional than at these satellites.

I worked at CWT Charlotte for several years and have a couple friends still there. They pay full NYC market base + bonus (and if you bill 2,200+ you get an extra 20% on top of market bonus). True a lot of people do not last that long. Multiple people in my class left for one of the big regional firms, so that's probably still on the table if you go to one of the NYC market paying firms. For the record, my billables usually came in between 2,000 and 2,100 (although I know there are others who came in quite a bit higher).

[Anonymous User]

True a lot of people do not last that long.

Yeah CWT Charlotte burns through associates at a rate that I think would make even a lot of NYC offices blush. Particularly some of the smaller groups. The associates who survive more than a few years there are machines.

ETA: I think the reason for this is that CWT does NYC work at NYC billing rates out of the Charlotte office, except the firm's general expenses are way lower (rent, etc.) because it's NC, so they can really boost their margins by absolutely crushing the Charlotte associates.

[Anonymous User]

True a lot of people do not last that long.

Yeah CWT Charlotte burns through associates at a rate that I think would make even a lot of NYC offices blush. Particularly some of the smaller groups. The associates who survive more than a few years there are machines.

ETA: I think the reason for this is that CWT does NYC work at NYC billing rates out of the Charlotte office, except the firm's general expenses are way lower (rent, etc.) because it's NC, so they can really boost their margins by absolutely crushing the Charlotte associates.

That rationale doesn't make sense at all. They'd be better off keeping the Charlotte associates given the better margins, and they would need relatively more hours from the NYC associates to make them as profitable. If it's even true that Charlotte associates on average work more (which I'm not sure it is), then I think the most likely explanations are (1) the NYC office is much larger, and I often suspected that it's easier to slip through the cracks there and coast for a few years, and (2) because NYC has more of a lit presence. I highly doubt that the firm is intentionally grinding Charlotte associates more than NYC associates.

[Anonymous User]

Same Anon as quoted - I am not disagreeing with ya, just answering OP’s question. I will say, I have not heard of that level of bonus for NY satellites in NC. From what I’ve heard, the base pay for these satellites is market, but bonus tend not to be. I could be wrong, these are just anecdotes from friends. Also, if helpful for OP’s process, I can say from experience that you have (significantly) more more longevity at a regional than at these satellites.

Different anon. CWT Charlotte, at least, is paying full NYC bonuses on top of NYC base.

Anon from earlier who used to work at a non-MVA regional - my non-CWT Charlotte satellite comp is full NYC bonuses - 6th years are making around 500 all in with all of the special bonuses etc. It's a non-negligible difference, but glad to hear that senior pay is going up for regionals (though imagine that's more MVA-level than Parker Poe-level).