KE NSP Autonomy? Forum

[Anonymous User]

How much better is NSP than a 6/7/8th year associate at another top firm. I've read the debates on comp / ability to actually handle deals, more curious about NSP influence. Could an NSP up and move offices on their own accord, do they have complete control of which deals they do, do they have full control over staffing? Is it harder to fire an NSP than senior associate? My impression is largely yes to all these considerations, but that effectively many NSP's are tied at the hip to certain equity partners (at least if they want a hope of getting shares)...

[Anonymous User]

How much better is NSP than a 6/7/8th year associate at another top firm. I've read the debates on comp / ability to actually handle deals, more curious about NSP influence. Could an NSP up and move offices on their own accord, do they have complete control of which deals they do, do they have full control over staffing? Is it harder to fire an NSP than senior associate? My impression is largely yes to all these considerations, but that effectively many NSP's are tied at the hip to certain equity partners (at least if they want a hope of getting shares)...

I’m across K&E on a few deals, and the share partners treat the NSPs like senior associates, so I doubt they have too much autonomy regarding deals and the like.

[Anonymous User]

How much better is NSP than a 6/7/8th year associate at another top firm. I've read the debates on comp / ability to actually handle deals, more curious about NSP influence. Could an NSP up and move offices on their own accord, do they have complete control of which deals they do, do they have full control over staffing? Is it harder to fire an NSP than senior associate? My impression is largely yes to all these considerations, but that effectively many NSP's are tied at the hip to certain equity partners (at least if they want a hope of getting shares)...

I’m across K&E on a few deals, and the share partners treat the NSPs like senior associates, so I doubt they have too much autonomy regarding deals and the like.

How often do you encounter NSP's running their own deals vs. being under an SP? Or is there always oversight?

[Anonymous User]

Midlevel at KE here so I don't have much insight into how they are treated in comparison to senior associates at other firms I haven't worked at - but your point about them being tied at the hip to certain share partners is often very true. To make shares, they'll usually be encouraged to branch out a bit, but the top ones are often working on everything that Major Share Partner is involved with, too. NSP is often thought of as the worst job at the firm, worse than even first-year associate. NSPs often have lots of up, down, and out responsibilities to share partners, associates, and clients respectively, and the work just never stops coming in. Not sure how that compares to others' takes about senior associate elsewhere.

[Anonymous User]

I will say when I worked at KE my group always supported a larger group's projects/deals (attempting to be vague), and an SP was always attached to the project/deal. Generally, the NSP ran the project/deal from start to finish, and the SP only came into the fray if things got really messy. I also worked on some other matters where it was SPs and then a couple of associates. I honestly have no clue how SPs pick the projects they want to actively participate in, but it seemed like NSPs generally got a lot of freedom even with an SP attached. That being said, I agree that being an NSP is an awful job. It's a 4-6 year runway to shares with an extremely low likelihood of success, and you just got slaughtered by KE's workload. Making shares as an internal attorney at KE sounds awful. Go somewhere else more humane, make partner, and hope KE poaches you.

[Anonymous User]

I will say when I worked at KE my group always supported a larger group's projects/deals (attempting to be vague), and an SP was always attached to the project/deal. Generally, the NSP ran the project/deal from start to finish, and the SP only came into the fray if things got really messy. I also worked on some other matters where it was SPs and then a couple of associates. I honestly have no clue how SPs pick the projects they want to actively participate in, but it seemed like NSPs generally got a lot of freedom even with an SP attached. That being said, I agree that being an NSP is an awful job. It's a 4-6 year runway to shares with an extremely low likelihood of success, and you just got slaughtered by KE's workload. Making shares as an internal attorney at KE sounds awful. Go somewhere else more humane, make partner, and hope KE poaches you.

Is it actually worse than being an 8-12th year associate at one of the lockstep or modified lockstep V10s just trying to wait it out to become equity partner. Maybe it’s the exact same posture with some clever KE branding, but on balance do you think the title, increased comp potential, and potential autonomy make it worth it? Likewise, isn’t there a practically 0% chance KE will poach you for partner unless you get equity elsewhere. So in the end we’re basically just looking at whether an NSP or very senior associate/counsel wants to lateral a rung down to get equity, right?

[LBJ's Hair]

IThat being said, I agree that being an NSP is an awful job. It's a 4-6 year runway to shares with an extremely low likelihood of success, and you just got slaughtered by KE's workload.

the same could be said of being a senior associate at literally any V10 tho, dunno why NSP would be any worse

anyway I do'nt totally understand this conversation, or the premise of OP's question. if you're an NSP 6/7/8 years from law school, aren't you just functionally senior associate with a cool external title. making NSP isn't a particularly selective process or anything. they made 150+ of them last year

the autonomy you get is presumably deal-dependent, group-dependent. sixth years at other V10s will run deals, why wouldn't NSPs. are NSPs tied to equity partners? I'm sure they are, so are 6/7/8 years at other firms gunning for partner

don't work there, and understand the comp structure is slightly different, but this is what I've gathered, where am I wrong

[Anonymous User]

Wait so if you get NSP ~6th year then doesn't that catapult you to the standing of ~8th year associate at a comparable firm? So for at least those 2 or 3 years aren't you objectively better off as a KE NSP (particularly wrt comp). If this is the case I think it's a no brainer that NSP is better.

[Anonymous User]

Wait so if you get NSP ~6th year then doesn't that catapult you to the standing of ~8th year associate at a comparable firm? So for at least those 2 or 3 years aren't you objectively better off as a KE NSP (particularly wrt comp). If this is the case I think it's a no brainer that NSP is better.

No, the comp is not different. A 7th year NSP has the same salary as a 7th year associate elsewhere (and worse taxes and benefits). The bonus is a bit better, but that's true at all levels at KE. The reality is that they don't have to pay NSPs much better than anywhere else because either you're not making shares, so why overpay you, or you are and then an extra $100k is a drop in the bucket compared to the $2M payday at the end.

[Anonymous User]

Wait so if you get NSP ~6th year then doesn't that catapult you to the standing of ~8th year associate at a comparable firm? So for at least those 2 or 3 years aren't you objectively better off as a KE NSP (particularly wrt comp). If this is the case I think it's a no brainer that NSP is better.

No, the comp is not different. A 7th year NSP has the same salary as a 7th year associate elsewhere (and worse taxes and benefits). The bonus is a bit better, but that's true at all levels at KE. The reality is that they don't have to pay NSPs much better than anywhere else because either you're not making shares, so why overpay you, or you are and then an extra $100k is a drop in the bucket compared to the $2M payday at the end.

Are NSP’s base bonuses not higher than an equivalent seniority associate (before the multiple is applied)? I thought I read on on these threads that it’s a pretty idiosyncratic thing but the NSP bonuses outpace market even more so than the typical KE multiple.

[Anonymous User]

Wait so if you get NSP ~6th year then doesn't that catapult you to the standing of ~8th year associate at a comparable firm? So for at least those 2 or 3 years aren't you objectively better off as a KE NSP (particularly wrt comp). If this is the case I think it's a no brainer that NSP is better.

lol

[Anonymous User]

How much better is NSP than a 6/7/8th year associate at another top firm. I've read the debates on comp / ability to actually handle deals, more curious about NSP influence. Could an NSP up and move offices on their own accord, do they have complete control of which deals they do, do they have full control over staffing? Is it harder to fire an NSP than senior associate? My impression is largely yes to all these considerations, but that effectively many NSP's are tied at the hip to certain equity partners (at least if they want a hope of getting shares)...

I’m across K&E on a few deals, and the share partners treat the NSPs like senior associates, so I doubt they have too much autonomy regarding deals and the like.

How often do you encounter NSP's running their own deals vs. being under an SP? Or is there always oversight?

I’ve never had an NSP running their own deal. But the NSPs tied to many of the deals were recently promoted (like the current NSP on the deal is a 2015 grad), so that may be why.

There are some things that they can run with, but that’s the same as a Midlevel/senior associate at any other firm.

[Ultramar vistas]

Depends on group and situation. Plenty of very autonomous NSPs out there, but they don’t flip a switch in November of your sixth year and magically you’re in charge. There’s definitely a difference in how juniors treat requests coming from associates vs NSPs though, and lateral NSPs maybe have it best because no one is around who remembers them as a second year fucking up an issues list. NSPs also get included in more internal communications, and at least in my group they get included in the internal partner meetings (although I’m sure the equity partners go over their heads with another tier of meetings too).

It’s definitely a meaningful shift that’s more than a title, but it takes some time for it to sink in.

[Anonymous User]

Depends on the group. I know in exec comp, if you're an older NSP (think 10+ years of practice), you can run a lot of your own deals. You'll probably still be staffed with a SP on some of the bigger projects.

[Anonymous User]

To the earlier question re why does being an NSP at Kirkland suck in particular vs. some comparable senior associate in the V10, the answer is "because Kirkland's culture makes it suck." What I mean by that is the culture truly does promote the idea that there's a meaningful difference when you become an NSP in terms of your capabilities and the responsibilities you should have, so you quickly find yourself with a lot of responsibility and expectation within teams, functioning in many ways like a senior partner (talking skills, management, work product not client-facing topics). But of course there's not a commensurate compensation increase. Kirkland is notorious for trying to "have it's cake and eat it too" in this way, meaning they demand the work quality and management responsibility from NSPs that you'd get from senior partners while not paying them like senior partners and this becomes especially true when you combine it with the extended track they've unofficially placed most people on to get shares, i.e., sometimes 12, 14, 16 years before equity is on the table (still a low% shot).

From what I can tell from friends at other V10s who stick with the associate title, there isn't as much of that incoherence at other places--the "associate" title seems to do some work as far as giving more of a cultural buffer until you actually make partner. That's not to say that expectations don't rachet up at other places too, they certainly do, but there isn't this big todo about becoming some new class of attorney and then the firm exploiting that to demand more of the work (and let's not forget the fees they get to bill out their new "partners" each year too).

[Anonymous User]

On the whole I think this makes sense. But can’t help to wonder whether the NSP platform is better for an associate who is gunning hard for partner. Like aren’t the extra managerial responsibilities just a chance to prove yourself that similarly situated associates at other firms don’t get?

[Anonymous User]

When exactly do they let you know? I inadvertently came across an offer letter to someone coming in as Class of 2017 that says you can make NSP subject to satisfactory review September 2023. Is it only officially confirmed that late?

[Anonymous User]

When exactly do they let you know? I inadvertently came across an offer letter to someone coming in as Class of 2017 that says you can make NSP subject to satisfactory review September 2023. Is it only officially confirmed that late?

Also curious, think I just read another thread where someone said they made NSP after only 4 years ?!?!

[dyemond]

NSP here.

Like the free market system, the system lends itself to giving yourself enough flexibility to really do well or to really screw yourself.

Cultural expectations, both upwards and downwards, are real. Client expectations are generally real too -- people generally know who the real relationship is but my experience is that clients tend to show a lot of deference but also demand commensurate responsibility/substantive skillset.

Depends a lot on what you want to do with the title and perception.

[Anonymous User]

NSP here.

Like the free market system, the system lends itself to giving yourself enough flexibility to really do well or to really screw yourself.

Cultural expectations, both upwards and downwards, are real. Client expectations are generally real too -- people generally know who the real relationship is but my experience is that clients tend to show a lot of deference but also demand commensurate responsibility/substantive skillset.

Depends a lot on what you want to do with the title and perception.

Do NSP's really make the equivalent of an associate with similar seniority? I find it hard to believe that an associate who grinded to make NSP in like 4 years isn't reaping major upside. Or are NSP's base necessarily the same as market for their class year and they are rewarded through the multiple (so basically the same old KE system)?

[Anonymous User]

You make NSP when you become a 7th year. Never heard of someone making it early.

[Anonymous User]

Would have an NSP have the autonomy to move office locations? Or is KE generally pretty open about this anyway

[Ultramar vistas]

You make NSP when you become a 7th year. Never heard of someone making it early.

There’s a few folks who have made it 1 year early. Got to be an absolute rockstar in the right situation though - not something you can really control.

[Anonymous User]

You make NSP when you become a 7th year. Never heard of someone making it early.

There’s a few folks who have made it 1 year early. Got to be an absolute rockstar in the right situation though - not something you can really control.

Is there a general number of years until shares?

[Anonymous User]

You make NSP when you become a 7th year. Never heard of someone making it early.

There’s a few folks who have made it 1 year early. Got to be an absolute rockstar in the right situation though - not something you can really control.

Are you sure about that and that it wasn't just some class year thing? I've literally never heard of anyone getting NSP early no matter how good they are. Which makes sense in a way since it's much less of a real promotion than it's made out to be so why would the firm be rushing to hand out the title since it doesn't have any retention effect especially once the "promoted" attorneys realize what's really up. I have heard your version of things for getting shares early (e.g., 9th year) for some truly exceptional circumstances / talent.