Boies Schiller SA Forum

[Anonymous User]

I was looking over NALP data for Boies Schiller, and I’m a bit confused. Their form indicates that they make offers to all (or nearly all) of their SAs, but that ultimately, only a small fraction of their SAs join the firm full-time after graduation.

What’s going on here?

I’m interested because I am sitting on an SA offer from one of their offices, fwiw. Deciding between this offer and another biglaw firm.

[The Lsat Airbender]

Search this forum for "Boies" or "BSF". They've had some ... issues lately which are probably deterring people from accepting offers.

[Anonymous User]

Search this forum for "Boies" or "BSF". They've had some ... issues lately which are probably deterring people from accepting offers.

Just did this. Are these “issues” really what’s keeping people away? Is it THAT bad?

I want to do litigation, and BSF is a big name, so I was honestly leaning toward accepting, but now I’m spooked. Would working there be a bad choice? Couldn’t I always lateral if things go south?

[Anonymous User]

Search this forum for "Boies" or "BSF". They've had some ... issues lately which are probably deterring people from accepting offers.

Just did this. Are these “issues” really what’s keeping people away? Is it THAT bad?

I want to do litigation, and BSF is a big name, so I was honestly leaning toward accepting, but now I’m spooked. Would working there be a bad choice? Couldn’t I always lateral if things go south?

Really just depends on your personal risk tolerance. I personally would avoid the hassle of trying to lateral by taking the other offer, unless the other firm is weak in lit.

[Joachim2017]

As another poster mentioned, look at the (now many) threads on this site re BSF, as well as press coverage of BSF over the last 2-3 years. Yes, it's *that* bad there.

If you have other options, take those other options. There's just no longer a reason to go to BSF. They no longer have above-market compensation (all new associates are not only on market comp, they have to meet a minimum hours floor to be eligible for that comp, which can be tough if there's not enough work to go around). They no longer have the best talent at the associate level. They no longer bring in partners with connections to big clients with down-the-road benefits or networking or in-house opportunities. Most of their big cases now are plaintff-side contingency work where they hope that, many years later, there will be a payoff. They're hanging by a thread.

Other firms will get you the same sort of work and responsibility for a more stable base of clients and a more reliable steam of pay. You could join BSF and lateral, yes, but why take the (very material) risk that you'd have to scramble to do that last-minute when the firm implodes, rather than on your own timeline? There's a reason almost all of their summers from a little while back turned down the BSF offer and preferred to do a whole new 3L hunt for a job. Especially in this market, this seems like a no-brainer.

[LBJ's Hair]

Search this forum for "Boies" or "BSF". They've had some ... issues lately which are probably deterring people from accepting offers.

Just did this. Are these “issues” really what’s keeping people away? Is it THAT bad?

I want to do litigation, and BSF is a big name, so I was honestly leaning toward accepting, but now I’m spooked. Would working there be a bad choice? Couldn’t I always lateral if things go south?

if you read the news, things have already gone south. like what would you be waiting for at this point, them to literally shut down the firm?

[Anonymous User]

Search this forum for "Boies" or "BSF". They've had some ... issues lately which are probably deterring people from accepting offers.

Just did this. Are these “issues” really what’s keeping people away? Is it THAT bad?

I want to do litigation, and BSF is a big name, so I was honestly leaning toward accepting, but now I’m spooked. Would working there be a bad choice? Couldn’t I always lateral if things go south?

Listen, there are plenty of former clerks struggling to find work in this shit economy. Again, it's a matter of too many warm bodies.

Boies is collapsing, and the data shows that smart people are doing 3L OCI and landing offers at Quinn or Patterson, or whatever.

So why don't you do just that?

Do 3L OCI, and if that doesn't work out, start at Boies, and ask soon as you get your foot in the door, try lateralling to a V100 or midlaw something.

Accept the offer, and if you get a better one, renege and flee to greener pastures. If that doesn't work out, be thankful you got a job at a decent firm, and try your best to get out as soon as you can, leveraging the name of a collapsing firm to those who don't know better.

[janereacher]

I was looking over NALP data for Boies Schiller, and I’m a bit confused. Their form indicates that they make offers to all (or nearly all) of their SAs, but that ultimately, only a small fraction of their SAs join the firm full-time after graduation.

What’s going on here?

I’m interested because I am sitting on an SA offer from one of their offices, fwiw. Deciding between this offer and another biglaw firm.

I'd guess the reason is that most of their summer associates are clerking instead post-graduation. While BSF is having issues, it's hard to imagine that the majority of the summer class is trying their luck during 3L OCI. NALP shows that in 2019, 4 starting associates were prior summers while 21 were post-clerkship hires.

[Anonymous User]

I was looking over NALP data for Boies Schiller, and I’m a bit confused. Their form indicates that they make offers to all (or nearly all) of their SAs, but that ultimately, only a small fraction of their SAs join the firm full-time after graduation.

What’s going on here?

I’m interested because I am sitting on an SA offer from one of their offices, fwiw. Deciding between this offer and another biglaw firm.

I'd guess the reason is that most of their summer associates are clerking instead post-graduation. While BSF is having issues, it's hard to imagine that the majority of the summer class is trying their luck during 3L OCI. NALP shows that in 2019, 4 starting associates were prior summers while 21 were post-clerkship hires.

I'm not sure if you are misreading the data or the data itself is organized in some misleading way, but I can tell you that it is a fact (inside knowledge, which is why I am posting anon) that BSF did not hire 21 post-clerkship associates in 2019 (or 2020, or 2021).

[Anonymous User]

Anecdotally know at least three people that summered 2020 at BSF but are now starting elsewhere. They were allegedly spooked by the whole dozens of partners leaving within weeks of one another thing

[Anonymous User]

I would very strongly encourage you to apply elsewhere. I could be convinced that there is upside to accepting BSF in a Florida office given the firm’s regional dominance there, and London remains operational (until the end of the year at least). The rest of the firm has skid off the rails.

I’m not really sure who you would reliably go to work for in NY/DC/CA anymore at the firm. David will always be David, and there are maybe 10 or so partners in those offices legitimate workflow; many of them will be leaving or retiring before you could even establish yourself. (They also tend to be difficult to work for, with some exceptions.) The rest are essentially senior associates with no independent book of business or have largely shambolic practices / serve as glorified ambulance chasers. I’m surprised this wasn’t apparent from the summer program. I guess BSF always did excel at spiking the kool-aid.

I won't say BSF offers nothing. There are still trial opportunities there and more plaintiffs' side work than you can get at most other big firms. It's ultimately how you weigh risk versus reward given the other opportunities available to you. In this market, under these circumstances, I would weigh the risks in joining a broken enterprise in decline above the opportunity to work with the few remaining top-flight trial lawyers and leverage the firm’s past elite brand. Maybe a year ago, there was an argument for taking on those risks with the possibility that the vaunted ‘restructuring’ could still turn things around and hold on to talent. That possibility essentially died with Gravante and Harrison fleeing their leadership roles and the rest of the appellate clerk mid-level talent lateraling out.

[Anonymous User]

Anecdotally know at least three people that summered 2020 at BSF but are now starting elsewhere. They were allegedly spooked by the whole dozens of partners leaving within weeks of one another thing

I feel for these people, as it would have been impossible to know at EIP/OCI in August 2019 that BSF would lose nearly half of its lawyers by the earliest you could actually be joining as an associate two years later. One of the whacky features of the law firm hiring model.

[Anonymous User]

I would very strongly encourage you to apply elsewhere. I could be convinced that there is upside to accepting BSF in a Florida office given the firm’s regional dominance there, and London remains operational (until the end of the year at least). The rest of the firm has skid off the rails.

I’m not really sure who you would reliably go to work for in NY/DC/CA anymore at the firm. David will always be David, and there are maybe 10 or so partners in those offices legitimate workflow; many of them will be leaving or retiring before you could even establish yourself. (They also tend to be difficult to work for, with some exceptions.) The rest are essentially senior associates with no independent book of business or have largely shambolic practices / serve as glorified ambulance chasers. I’m surprised this wasn’t apparent from the summer program. I guess BSF always did excel at spiking the kool-aid.

I won't say BSF offers nothing. There are still trial opportunities there and more plaintiffs' side work than you can get at most other big firms. It's ultimately how you weigh risk versus reward given the other opportunities available to you. In this market, under these circumstances, I would weigh the risks in joining a broken enterprise in decline above the opportunity to work with the few remaining top-flight trial lawyers and leverage the firm’s past elite brand. Maybe a year ago, there was an argument for taking on those risks with the possibility that the vaunted ‘restructuring’ could still turn things around and hold on to talent. That possibility essentially died with Gravante and Harrison fleeing their leadership roles and the rest of the appellate clerk mid-level talent lateraling out.

Thank you for this; it’s very helpful. Funny enough, I’m considering a position in a Florida office. Does that change the calculus to you?

[Anonymous User]

I would very strongly encourage you to apply elsewhere. I could be convinced that there is upside to accepting BSF in a Florida office given the firm’s regional dominance there, and London remains operational (until the end of the year at least). The rest of the firm has skid off the rails.

I’m not really sure who you would reliably go to work for in NY/DC/CA anymore at the firm. David will always be David, and there are maybe 10 or so partners in those offices legitimate workflow; many of them will be leaving or retiring before you could even establish yourself. (They also tend to be difficult to work for, with some exceptions.) The rest are essentially senior associates with no independent book of business or have largely shambolic practices / serve as glorified ambulance chasers. I’m surprised this wasn’t apparent from the summer program. I guess BSF always did excel at spiking the kool-aid.

I won't say BSF offers nothing. There are still trial opportunities there and more plaintiffs' side work than you can get at most other big firms. It's ultimately how you weigh risk versus reward given the other opportunities available to you. In this market, under these circumstances, I would weigh the risks in joining a broken enterprise in decline above the opportunity to work with the few remaining top-flight trial lawyers and leverage the firm’s past elite brand. Maybe a year ago, there was an argument for taking on those risks with the possibility that the vaunted ‘restructuring’ could still turn things around and hold on to talent. That possibility essentially died with Gravante and Harrison fleeing their leadership roles and the rest of the appellate clerk mid-level talent lateraling out.

Thank you for this; it’s very helpful. Funny enough, I’m considering a position in a Florida office. Does that change the calculus to you?

I'm one of the anons from above. It really should not. Some of the big-deal partners from the FL office will stay with David Boies to the end, but from the point of view of a new associate, that doesn't matter much. (And it's worth noting what has happened to the firm's regional offices: a few have already split off, taking a bunch of former BSF associates from FL with them, and other offices were just shut down). When the ability of the biggest names of the brand to bring in business slows, that will start affecting your work in FL just as much as it will in NY or DC, though maybe there's more buffers and the trickle will be slower.

The caveat again is whether you have other options. If you really don't, then sure, join now but just make sure to keep your resume updated and ready to shoot off on short notice.