How are open floor plans/glass offices? Forum

[Anonymous User]

One weird aspect of glass is that it affects juniors, seniors, partners, etc almost equally. Sure there's some with more privacy than others but it's not like "juniors get cubbies, seniors offices, partners window offices"

[Anonymous User]

It’s such a mystery to me why they do it. On every other point, law firms bend over backwards to recruit and retain, but in this one very straightforward area (offices. Private. With doors. If concerned about light in interior spaces, glass walls with frosting will suffice) they completely screw the pooch and make decisions that I know for a fact cost them talent. Bizarre.

The office plan consultants are telling the boomer management that kids these days want open office. Seriously.

Or the office plan consultants are being told by boomer management to back them up on kids wanting open office, probably by bringing across irrelevant data from tech and advertising firms (where both work and people are very different). This is driven by partner greed above all. Basically real estate is the second biggest cost firms will face (after talent). Executive committees probably have COOs telling them that the cost of staff is higher as a portion of revenues (even if YoY profit increases are huge). So they'll look to increase margins in other ways.

As a bigger point, open office isn't consistent with return to office, especially in a post-pandemic environment - can they not see how the risk of spread increases when people are in such close proximity?

I don't know, I just lost my private office (in-house), and an older management type (not the decision maker) was genuinely surprised when I told him that younger employees don't want open office. But you are definitely right that they are taking data from totally irrelevant industries to justify the decision.

I'm sure open office is fine if you are an advertising person who spends all day bouncing ideas off your co-workers or a trader who needs to be able to shout over to the guy at the next Bloomberg terminal. But it's totally counterproductive for law jobs that demand both quiet concentration and strict confidentiality on a regular basis.

Exactly. At the law firm I used to work at, the partners (and architects of the new open office layout) tried to sell associates on it by saying things like "you'll have so many free-flowing conversations and there will be so many ideas bouncing around and energy and collaboration"! and we were like....you know what it entails to be a good, productive law firm associate, right? It's for a different model of work, forced and shoe-horned into law for exogenous reasons.

[Anonymous User]

It’s such a mystery to me why they do it. On every other point, law firms bend over backwards to recruit and retain, but in this one very straightforward area (offices. Private. With doors. If concerned about light in interior spaces, glass walls with frosting will suffice) they completely screw the pooch and make decisions that I know for a fact cost them talent. Bizarre.

The office plan consultants are telling the boomer management that kids these days want open office. Seriously.

Or the office plan consultants are being told by boomer management to back them up on kids wanting open office, probably by bringing across irrelevant data from tech and advertising firms (where both work and people are very different). This is driven by partner greed above all. Basically real estate is the second biggest cost firms will face (after talent). Executive committees probably have COOs telling them that the cost of staff is higher as a portion of revenues (even if YoY profit increases are huge). So they'll look to increase margins in other ways.

As a bigger point, open office isn't consistent with return to office, especially in a post-pandemic environment - can they not see how the risk of spread increases when people are in such close proximity?

I don't know, I just lost my private office (in-house), and an older management type (not the decision maker) was genuinely surprised when I told him that younger employees don't want open office. But you are definitely right that they are taking data from totally irrelevant industries to justify the decision.

I'm sure open office is fine if you are an advertising person who spends all day bouncing ideas off your co-workers or a trader who needs to be able to shout over to the guy at the next Bloomberg terminal. But it's totally counterproductive for law jobs that demand both quiet concentration and strict confidentiality on a regular basis.

Exactly. At the law firm I used to work at, the partners (and architects of the new open office layout) tried to sell associates on it by saying things like "you'll have so many free-flowing conversations and there will be so many ideas bouncing around and energy and collaboration"! and we were like....you know what it entails to be a good, productive law firm associate, right? It's for a different model of work, forced and shoe-horned into law for exogenous reasons.

I worked in a big advertising agency before law school, in an open office, and I fucking hated it. You know else hated it? Everyone, except the few executives whose idea it was. People were constantly mysteriously missing from their desk because they were hiding in conference rooms, edit rooms, other floors, or even coffee shops just to get some work done. I’m talking producers, editors, developers, copywriters, account managers - nobody liked it. TERRIBLE environment, and the fact that anyone at a law firm is pointing to ad agencies as evidence that open offices can work is a sick joke.

My friends in big tech didn’t seem to hate it quite as passionately, but they weren’t terribly fond of the open office either.

[Anonymous User]

I’m in a glass office in a low foot traffic corner. I really like it. Barely anyone passes by, I’m near a corner so lots of light comes in through the day and the office feels larger. I also get a little motivated not to goof off so I’m more efficient. But I don’t think I’d feel the same though if Partners we’re constantly walking back and forth in front of my office.

[Anonymous User]

I’m in a glass office in a low foot traffic corner. I really like it. Barely anyone passes by, I’m near a corner so lots of light comes in through the day and the office feels larger. I also get a little motivated not to goof off so I’m more efficient. But I don’t think I’d feel the same though if Partners were constantly walking back and forth in front of my office.

[FF2020]

Exactly. At the law firm I used to work at, the partners (and architects of the new open office layout) tried to sell associates on it by saying things like "you'll have so many free-flowing conversations and there will be so many ideas bouncing around and energy and collaboration"! and we were like....you know what it entails to be a good, productive law firm associate, right? It's for a different model of work, forced and shoe-horned into law for exogenous reasons.

I think the interesting question is how many partners who are strong open office advocates for juniors are ok going into open offices themselves. I’d bet not many.

I’ll concede that real estate is a big cost and maybe offices don’t need to be quite as huge/private. Hence glass and internal offices where once armies of secretaries and paralegals sat. If they really want to cut costs for *everyone*, though, there are other alternatives. A lot of UK firms have everyone - including partners - sharing offices. Not ideal (especially if you’re the junior person getting kicked out for someone else’s call) but still more privacy than in a pure open situation, with an ability to shut a door…

[jotarokujo]

I think biglaw partners assume people want to have maximum compensation instead of other perks like 401k, more space, etc. in a lot of instances they are wrong.

[nixy]

The thing is, even if they do think that, when one of the other big firms goes and increases salary they kind of have to, too, for retention and for public image. A firm can’t respond to a salary increase by saying “we’re not going to raise salaries but we’re going to increase 401k matching and make sure everyone has a private office.” It’s kind of an arms race.

[nealric]

Exactly. At the law firm I used to work at, the partners (and architects of the new open office layout) tried to sell associates on it by saying things like "you'll have so many free-flowing conversations and there will be so many ideas bouncing around and energy and collaboration"! and we were like....you know what it entails to be a good, productive law firm associate, right? It's for a different model of work, forced and shoe-horned into law for exogenous reasons.

I think the interesting question is how many partners who are strong open office advocates for juniors are ok going into open offices themselves. I’d bet not many.

Same as the corporate world. They talk about open office as being the employee preference and opening up so many more opportunities for collaboration. But curiously, VPs still get offices and the C-suite still has generously-sized private offices on a private floor. You mean to tell me the C-suite doesn't value the collaborative benefits of open office?

[The Lsat Airbender]

I think biglaw partners assume people want to have maximum compensation instead of other perks like 401k, more space, etc. in a lot of instances they are wrong.

Law firms are mainly weird about 401(k) match because of nondiscrimination testing, FYI. It's hard for firms because they're so top-heavy with highly compensated employees (the lawyers).

[j01]

People keep referring to advertising as an example of an industry that appreciates open office- I worked in advertising for five years, exclusively in open office. We HATED it. People got into screaming matches over excessive noise once a month. Every single person, from creatives to account management, complained about it. It was purely a cost containment decision.

[Buglaw]

The research is pretty clear at this point that open offices were/are a bad idea. The only reason anyone does them is to save on real estate, but hard to imagine the negative consequences are genuinely worth the cost savings for a super high margin big $ practice like most big law firms.

https://hbr.org/2019/11/the-truth-about-open-offices
https://www.businessinsider.com/open-of ... cts-2020-8
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... u-thought/

[jotarokujo]

The research is pretty clear at this point that open offices were/are a bad idea. The only reason anyone does them is to save on real estate, but hard to imagine the negative consequences are genuinely worth the cost savings for a super high margin big $ practice like most big law firms.

https://hbr.org/2019/11/the-truth-about-open-offices
https://www.businessinsider.com/open-of ... cts-2020-8
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... u-thought/

you think productivity will drop so dramatically that firms will notice?

[almostperfectt]

The research is pretty clear at this point that open offices were/are a bad idea. The only reason anyone does them is to save on real estate, but hard to imagine the negative consequences are genuinely worth the cost savings for a super high margin big $ practice like most big law firms.

https://hbr.org/2019/11/the-truth-about-open-offices
https://www.businessinsider.com/open-of ... cts-2020-8
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... u-thought/

you think productivity will drop so dramatically that firms will notice?

I would say no but mainly because firms profit on inefficiency. Clients are too rich/lazy to care.

[Anonymous User]

The research is pretty clear at this point that open offices were/are a bad idea. The only reason anyone does them is to save on real estate, but hard to imagine the negative consequences are genuinely worth the cost savings for a super high margin big $ practice like most big law firms.

https://hbr.org/2019/11/the-truth-about-open-offices
https://www.businessinsider.com/open-of ... cts-2020-8
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... u-thought/

you think productivity will drop so dramatically that firms will notice?

I would say no but mainly because firms profit on inefficiency. Clients are too rich/lazy to care.

Exactly this. They profit off billables, not off efficiency.

[jbagelboy]

Open floor plans are the actual f*****g worst.