Does biglaw "blacklist" stealthed associates? Forum

[k_moreno]

I would go home and order delivery to my apartment, and then submit the receipt for reimbursement (which had my home address on it and thus was painfully obviously not complying with the policy designed to make it easier to stay late at the office), and still never had any issues. In my mind I was working, just from home, so i obviously didn’t feel bad.

Obviously the partners don't see the receipts, but I just asked a partner I know and they said you wouldn't be on their cases anymore if they found out about that (though take this with a grain of salt, I'm just a random person on the internet). The problem is that the bills go to the client. And some clients do in fact look at receipts. Of all the posts so far, this is the one that seems obviously over the line, at least for the policies that I'm familiar with.

[legalpotato]

I would go home and order delivery to my apartment, and then submit the receipt for reimbursement (which had my home address on it and thus was painfully obviously not complying with the policy designed to make it easier to stay late at the office), and still never had any issues. In my mind I was working, just from home, so i obviously didn’t feel bad.

Obviously the partners don't see the receipts, but I just asked a partner I know and they said you wouldn't be on their cases anymore if they found out about that (though take this with a grain of salt, I'm just a random person on the internet). The problem is that the bills go to the client. And some clients do in fact look at receipts. Of all the posts so far, this is the one that seems obviously over the line, at least for the policies that I'm familiar with.

So you were just having a casual chat w/ a partner after he/she unloaded some work on you, and you were like "listen to what these shitheads on TLS were saying they do ..... can you believe that? WWYD lol?"

[k_moreno]

I would go home and order delivery to my apartment, and then submit the receipt for reimbursement (which had my home address on it and thus was painfully obviously not complying with the policy designed to make it easier to stay late at the office), and still never had any issues. In my mind I was working, just from home, so i obviously didn’t feel bad.

Obviously the partners don't see the receipts, but I just asked a partner I know and they said you wouldn't be on their cases anymore if they found out about that (though take this with a grain of salt, I'm just a random person on the internet). The problem is that the bills go to the client. And some clients do in fact look at receipts. Of all the posts so far, this is the one that seems obviously over the line, at least for the policies that I'm familiar with.

So you were just having a casual chat w/ a partner after he/she unloaded some work on you, and you were like "listen to what these shitheads on TLS were saying they do ..... can you believe that? WWYD lol?"

You seem to be implying that such a conversation is implausible, and I agree. That would be a weird thing for a person to say.

[Elston Gunn]

I would go home and order delivery to my apartment, and then submit the receipt for reimbursement (which had my home address on it and thus was painfully obviously not complying with the policy designed to make it easier to stay late at the office), and still never had any issues. In my mind I was working, just from home, so i obviously didn’t feel bad.

Obviously the partners don't see the receipts, but I just asked a partner I know and they said you wouldn't be on their cases anymore if they found out about that (though take this with a grain of salt, I'm just a random person on the internet). The problem is that the bills go to the client. And some clients do in fact look at receipts. Of all the posts so far, this is the one that seems obviously over the line, at least for the policies that I'm familiar with.

Different practices and firms, etc, but we would only bill to a client if it’s specifically the client that caused the late work (like a last minute fire drill, or 8+ hours to one client), and with my practice that rarely happened. I agree I wouldn’t bill it to a client.

[Anonymous User]

I would go home and order delivery to my apartment, and then submit the receipt for reimbursement (which had my home address on it and thus was painfully obviously not complying with the policy designed to make it easier to stay late at the office), and still never had any issues. In my mind I was working, just from home, so i obviously didn’t feel bad.

Obviously the partners don't see the receipts, but I just asked a partner I know and they said you wouldn't be on their cases anymore if they found out about that (though take this with a grain of salt, I'm just a random person on the internet). The problem is that the bills go to the client. And some clients do in fact look at receipts. Of all the posts so far, this is the one that seems obviously over the line, at least for the policies that I'm familiar with.

Do clients really look at fuckin meal reimbursement receipts lmao

That’s less than the cost of .1 billable hours for a stub

[Anonymous User]

I would go home and order delivery to my apartment, and then submit the receipt for reimbursement (which had my home address on it and thus was painfully obviously not complying with the policy designed to make it easier to stay late at the office), and still never had any issues. In my mind I was working, just from home, so i obviously didn’t feel bad.

Obviously the partners don't see the receipts, but I just asked a partner I know and they said you wouldn't be on their cases anymore if they found out about that (though take this with a grain of salt, I'm just a random person on the internet). The problem is that the bills go to the client. And some clients do in fact look at receipts. Of all the posts so far, this is the one that seems obviously over the line, at least for the policies that I'm familiar with.

Partners (and sometime senior associates) at my DC biglaw firm have asked associates not to bill their after-hours meals before.

[k_moreno]

I would go home and order delivery to my apartment, and then submit the receipt for reimbursement (which had my home address on it and thus was painfully obviously not complying with the policy designed to make it easier to stay late at the office), and still never had any issues. In my mind I was working, just from home, so i obviously didn’t feel bad.

Obviously the partners don't see the receipts, but I just asked a partner I know and they said you wouldn't be on their cases anymore if they found out about that (though take this with a grain of salt, I'm just a random person on the internet). The problem is that the bills go to the client. And some clients do in fact look at receipts. Of all the posts so far, this is the one that seems obviously over the line, at least for the policies that I'm familiar with.

Do clients really look at fuckin meal reimbursement receipts lmao

That’s less than the cost of .1 billable hours for a stub

I'll give you an example, from the same partner I mentioned before. One of the billing partners on a case literally had a call with a client from the gov't over a weekend because the client saw that an associated had submitted a food receipt with extra chicken on a salad. The client thought that the guy was getting food for multiple people. I 100% agree it was a waste of everybody's time, and this was an extreme case, but a lot of clients have crazy internal rules about billing.

[Anonymous User]

I would go home and order delivery to my apartment, and then submit the receipt for reimbursement (which had my home address on it and thus was painfully obviously not complying with the policy designed to make it easier to stay late at the office), and still never had any issues. In my mind I was working, just from home, so i obviously didn’t feel bad.

Obviously the partners don't see the receipts, but I just asked a partner I know and they said you wouldn't be on their cases anymore if they found out about that (though take this with a grain of salt, I'm just a random person on the internet). The problem is that the bills go to the client. And some clients do in fact look at receipts. Of all the posts so far, this is the one that seems obviously over the line, at least for the policies that I'm familiar with.

Do clients really look at fuckin meal reimbursement receipts lmao

That’s less than the cost of .1 billable hours for a stub

I'll give you an example, from the same partner I mentioned before. One of the billing partners on a case literally had a call with a client from the gov't over a weekend because the client saw that an associated had submitted a food receipt with extra chicken on a salad. The client thought that the guy was getting food for multiple people. I 100% agree it was a waste of everybody's time, and this was an extreme case, but a lot of clients have crazy internal rules about billing.

LOL. The amount of small nitpicking that happens over billing is always crazy to me. Jeez Louise.

[Anonymous User]

Obviously my true allegiance lies with the hungry, overworked associates in these situations.

But I can see why a paranoid client would check meal receipts. Even though the meals are not material costs, they are easily-verifiable things that can signal whether you are getting screwed on not-easily-verifiable-but-potentially-very-material things like overbilling. Or so the thinking might go, under a quasi ‘brown M&Ms and Van Halen’ approach.

[Anonymous User]

I would go home and order delivery to my apartment, and then submit the receipt for reimbursement (which had my home address on it and thus was painfully obviously not complying with the policy designed to make it easier to stay late at the office), and still never had any issues. In my mind I was working, just from home, so i obviously didn’t feel bad.

Obviously the partners don't see the receipts, but I just asked a partner I know and they said you wouldn't be on their cases anymore if they found out about that (though take this with a grain of salt, I'm just a random person on the internet). The problem is that the bills go to the client. And some clients do in fact look at receipts. Of all the posts so far, this is the one that seems obviously over the line, at least for the policies that I'm familiar with.

Do clients really look at fuckin meal reimbursement receipts lmao

That’s less than the cost of .1 billable hours for a stub

I'll give you an example, from the same partner I mentioned before. One of the billing partners on a case literally had a call with a client from the gov't over a weekend because the client saw that an associated had submitted a food receipt with extra chicken on a salad. The client thought that the guy was getting food for multiple people. I 100% agree it was a waste of everybody's time, and this was an extreme case, but a lot of clients have crazy internal rules about billing.

LOL. The amount of small nitpicking that happens over billing is always crazy to me. Jeez Louise.

It's not an expense, but we had a routine doc review task that we performed weekly for a client, and the five or six or so people on the team typically charged 4ish hours each per week for the review. I and another associate covered for someone and billed 6 or so hours each. The client called the partner and the partner called us into their office to discuss. Presented us with the highlighted print outs of the billed hours and everything. There was a call with the client to explain. Enormous waste of time for petty hours.

[Anonymous User]

To the poster who asked:

Do clients really look at fuckin meal reimbursement receipts lmao?

The answer is yes. I've been told by a partner at my firm that certain institutional clients (large, multimillion dollar corporations) have folks who look at the bills that contain these items. The partner added that it's no longer 2005. Whatever the long-term effects of the financial recession, those days are never coming back, and even huge corporations have people looking at this stuff now. That's not to say ALL of them, or that you can't do it, but that it's a myth that rich clients on sophisticated matters do not look at this now.

(Also, the skepticism here seems to come from this silly notion that it would be the GC himself that looked at the line items scrutinizing $30 expenses. No, folks, they have their own juniors on these things.)

[Anonymous User]

To the poster who asked:

Do clients really look at fuckin meal reimbursement receipts lmao?

The answer is yes. I've been told by a partner at my firm that certain institutional clients (large, multimillion dollar corporations) have folks who look at the bills that contain these items. The partner added that it's no longer 2005. Whatever the long-term effects of the financial recession, those days are never coming back, and even huge corporations have people looking at this stuff now. That's not to say ALL of them, or that you can't do it, but that it's a myth that rich clients on sophisticated matters do not look at this now.

(Also, the skepticism here seems to come from this silly notion that it would be the GC himself that looked at the line items scrutinizing $30 expenses. No, folks, they have their own juniors on these things.)

no, I don't think a GC is looking at meal reimbursement receipts. I just find nitpicking huge legal bills over small things like meal reimbursements (barring flagrant abuse) to be amusing and odd.

[mardash]

To the poster who asked:

Do clients really look at fuckin meal reimbursement receipts lmao?

The answer is yes. I've been told by a partner at my firm that certain institutional clients (large, multimillion dollar corporations) have folks who look at the bills that contain these items. The partner added that it's no longer 2005. Whatever the long-term effects of the financial recession, those days are never coming back, and even huge corporations have people looking at this stuff now. That's not to say ALL of them, or that you can't do it, but that it's a myth that rich clients on sophisticated matters do not look at this now.

(Also, the skepticism here seems to come from this silly notion that it would be the GC himself that looked at the line items scrutinizing $30 expenses. No, folks, they have their own juniors on these things.)

no, I don't think a GC is looking at meal reimbursement receipts. I just find nitpicking huge legal bills over small things like meal reimbursements (barring flagrant abuse) to be amusing and odd.

Everything counts in large amounts, and if you give your outside counsel shit once they’re unlikely to want to do it in the future. And if they don’t stop it’s a good sign the firm you’re paying a lot of money doesn’t give a shit about your input.

[Anonymous User]

I used to order one mango lassi and an appetizer when I ordered Indian takeout to the office. Had the internal billing department chastise me for charging for a "drink." Which, yeah I guess it is a drink, but it is also just yogurt? But in a cup through a straw? I asked if smoothies were covered and was told it was a case-by-case basis.

Mind you, I'm vegetarian and a short woman, so that was all I needed to order, and my bill was never as high as some of the associates getting an entree and an appetizer and some naan. I just started maxing it out after that and taking home the leftovers.

[Anonymous User]

A boomer V20 partner (now retired) who I know personally has told me about some guy that was up for partnership in the ‘80s and one of the reasons (but not the sole reason) this guy got shot down was he known to abuse the firm’s meal policy. “Can’t trust his character” yadda yadda yadda…

[k_moreno]

A boomer V20 partner (now retired) who I know personally has told me about some guy that was up for partnership in the ‘80s and one of the reasons (but not the sole reason) this guy got shot down was he known to abuse the firm’s meal policy. “Can’t trust his character” yadda yadda yadda…

there's also this famous story: https://www.abajournal.com/news/article ... ab_receipt

An audit found Smolen had submitted about $69,800 in unacceptable cab expenses at Sidley and questioned $379,000 in additional reimbursed expenses

He was driving to work but submitting cab receipts anyway.

[Anonymous User]

A boomer V20 partner (now retired) who I know personally has told me about some guy that was up for partnership in the ‘80s and one of the reasons (but not the sole reason) this guy got shot down was he known to abuse the firm’s meal policy. “Can’t trust his character” yadda yadda yadda…

there's also this famous story: https://www.abajournal.com/news/article ... ab_receipt

An audit found Smolen had submitted about $69,800 in unacceptable cab expenses at Sidley and questioned $379,000 in additional reimbursed expenses

He was driving to work but submitting cab receipts anyway.

I was treated once to the senior associate across the hallway having a loud conversation with billing over the phone saying "look, we've been over this before, I don't have time to deal with this again, it saves me 30 minutes taking a cab in the morning over the subway and it's worth every penny to the client. Do whatever you did last time this came up, but this is just how things are going to have to be." I think he's a non-equity partner now, but I assume he'll be full equity eventually. There's specific a type of guy too, pretty decent in person, complete ass over the phone.

[bajablast]

Are firms still comping meals for associates during the pandemic/WFH?

[Anonymous User]

IME, private equity clients don’t seem to care about the receipts, but some F100’s do. I’ve never had a partner tell me not to have the meal or take the car, but I know on certain matters the partners will write off the expense and never send it to the client. As someone said above, it’s less than .1 billable hours, so the firm just eats it for those clients. Punishing the associate because of a client relations issue would be punitive and a sign that the firm is excessively cheap or poorly managed.

[Anonymous User]

IME, private equity clients don’t seem to care about the receipts, but some F100’s do. I’ve never had a partner tell me not to have the meal or take the car, but I know on certain matters the partners will write off the expense and never send it to the client. As someone said above, it’s less than .1 billable hours, so the firm just eats it for those clients. Punishing the associate because of a client relations issue would be punitive and a sign that the firm is excessively cheap or poorly managed.

One of the things it took me a few years at the firm to really get a handle on was how the partnership is a monolith to a junior associate, but there are lots of financial and power dynamics that just aren't immediately apparent outside the polite face of it. One fellow junior at my V20, who was in a corporate-adjacent practice, used to tell me about how one of the partners she worked with the most was constantly worried about getting enough business and about how his revenue metrics were a problem. Clients came for the M&A team, but often shopped elsewhere for lower rates on his piece of the deal. Anyway, the associate was routinely told not to charge things, and also not to charge hours, and at one point a client wanted a big bill write off, so the partner reclassified a bunch of her hours as training (which meant he didn't have to eat the revenue hit of writing off billables). That's all to say, partners can be sensitive to costs and might not always want to eat the expenses. Harsh world.

[ConfusedNYer]

Re: food reimbursements.

Pre-law school I was in a role that involved conducting the "initial" review of legal bills and cutting things we did not pay for as a policy and one of them was any food reimbursement, printing reimbursement, or travel reimbursement, and we were a pretty small legal dept. in the grand scheme of things. So companies definitely have people reviewing legal bills.

[Anonymous User]

IME, private equity clients don’t seem to care about the receipts, but some F100’s do. I’ve never had a partner tell me not to have the meal or take the car, but I know on certain matters the partners will write off the expense and never send it to the client. As someone said above, it’s less than .1 billable hours, so the firm just eats it for those clients. Punishing the associate because of a client relations issue would be punitive and a sign that the firm is excessively cheap or poorly managed.

Can confirm that I exclusively do work for non-finance fortune 100 (energy, cpg, manufacturing etc.) and clients can be arbitrarily stingy about expenses. Shit like $150/night cap on hotels, no food expenses while traveling etc. Associates are told to bill all expenses to the client and then partners/billing write it off at the backend.

[Anonymous User]

What does getting “stealthed” even mean? What’s the process of this and did you see it coming

[hoos89]

Yeah, doesn't "stealthed" refer to the practice of firms laying off associated in 2008/9 and pretending they were not (by, for instance, pretending they were actually just firing people for performance issues)?

[Anonymous User]

I was stealthed in 2020. Job hunt ensues. I had an offer at a big law firm but was unsure of working there because I had previously worked with a partner in that group who was a bit unhinged (but I was desperate). I was interviewing for an in-house position and also another big law position at the same time. I tried to buy more time to respond to my first offer (the firm with the crazy partner) explaining I was juggling things and I wanted to make an informed decision with this lateral move. Crazy partner calls me and says "no one at the firm know this BUT, I heard you were asked to leave your firm." No idea if she honestly knew anything (she went to law school with a partner I never worked with once) or if she guessed this was the case because why would I want to work with her again. Bullet dodged, I ended up in-house.