How do you deal with rude / condescending partners? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Have a situation where I am getting staffed on a lot of deals with younger partner. This partner is smart, but also very rude and condescending (hence title), not just to me, but to everyone (juniors, opposing counsel). Approaches everything under the assumption that this partner's way is right and everyone else's way is wrong and, moreover, they were stupid for not doing it that way in the first place. Micromanages like no one I've ever seen before too.

Recently had a call where opposing counsel went bezerk on the phone because partner accused them of "not knowing what they were doing" and "this isn't how deals like this are done".

The worst part is the senior partner is under the assumption that me and this young partner will be a "team" moving forward.

On my part, I just plan on wrapping up my current stuff, biting my tongue and pinching my nose, and being "too busy" for future deals with this partner. If senior partner asks or tries to staff me, I am considering being direct and saying "I do not want to work with young partner, young partner's style is not conducive to my personal development" - this won't be a surprise to senior partner. I have a good rep and well liked, and also don't care that much about this job anymore. But curious if ppl here think that is a bad idea and I should say nothing.

How do you deal with partners like this? How do you get out from under their thumb?

[almostperfectt]

Have a situation where I am getting staffed on a lot of deals with younger partner. This partner is smart, but also very rude and condescending (hence title), not just to me, but to everyone (juniors, opposing counsel). Approaches everything under the assumption that this partner's way is right and everyone else's way is wrong and, moreover, they were stupid for not doing it that way in the first place. Micromanages like no one I've ever seen before too.

Recently had a call where opposing counsel went bezerk on the phone because partner accused them of "not knowing what they were doing" and "this isn't how deals like this are done".

The worst part is the senior partner is under the assumption that me and this young partner will be a "team" moving forward.

On my part, I just plan on wrapping up my current stuff, biting my tongue and pinching my nose, and being "too busy" for future deals with this partner. If senior partner asks or tries to staff me, I am considering being direct and saying "I do not want to work with young partner, young partner's style is not conducive to my personal development" - this won't be a surprise to senior partner. I have a good rep and well liked, and also don't care that much about this job anymore. But curious if ppl here think that is a bad idea and I should say nothing.

How do you deal with partners like this? How do you get out from under their thumb?

When I was a summer associate, a clearly very screamer partner was acting this way and the mid-level told me straight up "if he's ever like this to you just tell him to get out of your office and shut the door".

[Anonymous User]

Honestly man--and I freely admit maybe this is just Stockholm Syndrome on my part--if the worst thing about this guy is he's arrogant and "condescending" but he knows his shit and is respected at the firm I'd keep working with him and not run the risk of being labeled a PITA junior. I've run into much, much worse in my time in biglaw. Someone already mentioned the screamer type, which I've seen. I've also seen, and I think this is the worst, the passive aggressive ones who will appear chill with you and then stab you in the back at review time or behind the scenes. I've seen the two-faced ones who talk a big game but then brown nose to the senior partners / the client. I've seen the always on ones who expect you to be replying to e-mails at 2 am on a Sunday morning. Etc.

[Anonymous User]

Have a situation where I am getting staffed on a lot of deals with younger partner. This partner is smart, but also very rude and condescending (hence title), not just to me, but to everyone (juniors, opposing counsel). Approaches everything under the assumption that this partner's way is right and everyone else's way is wrong and, moreover, they were stupid for not doing it that way in the first place. Micromanages like no one I've ever seen before too.

Recently had a call where opposing counsel went bezerk on the phone because partner accused them of "not knowing what they were doing" and "this isn't how deals like this are done".

The worst part is the senior partner is under the assumption that me and this young partner will be a "team" moving forward.

On my part, I just plan on wrapping up my current stuff, biting my tongue and pinching my nose, and being "too busy" for future deals with this partner. If senior partner asks or tries to staff me, I am considering being direct and saying "I do not want to work with young partner, young partner's style is not conducive to my personal development" - this won't be a surprise to senior partner. I have a good rep and well liked, and also don't care that much about this job anymore. But curious if ppl here think that is a bad idea and I should say nothing.

How do you deal with partners like this? How do you get out from under their thumb?

I do everything I can to never work with them again -- Never say yes to them, and if you're staffed by someone else, find out who else is on the deal before saying yes. I don't think you need to/should say outright you don't want to work with that particular partner unless backed into a corner.


Edit: Accidental Anon -- LittleRedCorvette

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Honestly man--and I freely admit maybe this is just Stockholm Syndrome on my part--if the worst thing about this guy is he's arrogant and "condescending" but he knows his shit and is respected at the firm I'd keep working with him and not run the risk of being labeled a PITA junior. I've run into much, much worse in my time in biglaw. Someone already mentioned the screamer type, which I've seen. I've also seen, and I think this is the worst, the passive aggressive ones who will appear chill with you and then stab you in the back at review time or behind the scenes. I've seen the two-faced ones who talk a big game but then brown nose to the senior partners / the client. I've seen the always on ones who expect you to be replying to e-mails at 2 am on a Sunday morning. Etc.

Being known as a PITA is almost always going to be better for your career in the long run than being known as the guy who always does what he's told.

The crossover between people who already feel overworked and people who continue to try to please partners is always confoundingly large.

[Anonymous User]

Honestly man--and I freely admit maybe this is just Stockholm Syndrome on my part--if the worst thing about this guy is he's arrogant and "condescending" but he knows his shit and is respected at the firm I'd keep working with him and not run the risk of being labeled a PITA junior. I've run into much, much worse in my time in biglaw. Someone already mentioned the screamer type, which I've seen. I've also seen, and I think this is the worst, the passive aggressive ones who will appear chill with you and then stab you in the back at review time or behind the scenes. I've seen the two-faced ones who talk a big game but then brown nose to the senior partners / the client. I've seen the always on ones who expect you to be replying to e-mails at 2 am on a Sunday morning. Etc.

Being known as a PITA is almost always going to be better for your career in the long run than being known as the guy who always does what he's told.

The crossover between people who already feel overworked and people who continue to try to please partners is always confoundingly large.

I think there's a curve to it. The more senior you get, the more you should push back and have boundaries. The more junior you are, the more you should have a "yes sir" mentality. There's a correlation between actual substantive knowledge and value and ability to be a PITA effectively. A junior with an attitude is asking to get canned, not respected.

[Anonymous User]

Have a situation where I am getting staffed on a lot of deals with younger partner. This partner is smart, but also very rude and condescending (hence title), not just to me, but to everyone (juniors, opposing counsel). Approaches everything under the assumption that this partner's way is right and everyone else's way is wrong and, moreover, they were stupid for not doing it that way in the first place. Micromanages like no one I've ever seen before too.

Recently had a call where opposing counsel went bezerk on the phone because partner accused them of "not knowing what they were doing" and "this isn't how deals like this are done".

The worst part is the senior partner is under the assumption that me and this young partner will be a "team" moving forward.

On my part, I just plan on wrapping up my current stuff, biting my tongue and pinching my nose, and being "too busy" for future deals with this partner. If senior partner asks or tries to staff me, I am considering being direct and saying "I do not want to work with young partner, young partner's style is not conducive to my personal development" - this won't be a surprise to senior partner. I have a good rep and well liked, and also don't care that much about this job anymore. But curious if ppl here think that is a bad idea and I should say nothing.

How do you deal with partners like this? How do you get out from under their thumb?

Being honest is pretty much always the wrong thing to do in biglaw. Unless maybe if you know that the senior partner hates the junior partner or if the junior partner has a horrible reputation among everyone including other partners at your firm. Bear in mind that your 2-3 years of good rep and being well liked are irrelevant compared to the junior partner's 10+ years of hard work and kissing ass.

[Anonymous User]

Agree that being honest about this is almost never the right move. The senior partner will almost assuredly know better/value more the junior partner and people don’t want to deal with personal conflict nonsense, no matter who is “at fault.” I have a similar partner and I try to turn down work from them when it is plausible, but sometimes they ask when I don’t have much going on and I just hold my nose and do it. One thing that helps is to find another partner that you have worked for and like working for and make it clear to them that you would love to be considered for their projects going forward. You can also make it known to the assigning partner that you are interested in work that is not this partner’s specialty, which may help.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Being known as a PITA is almost always going to be better for your career in the long run than being known as the guy who always does what he's told.

The crossover between people who already feel overworked and people who continue to try to please partners is always confoundingly large.

I think there's a curve to it. The more senior you get, the more you should push back and have boundaries. The more junior you are, the more you should have a "yes sir" mentality. There's a correlation between actual substantive knowledge and value and ability to be a PITA effectively. A junior with an attitude is asking to get canned, not respected.

Associates are an order of magnitude more likely to burn out from working too much than get canned for working too little, especially in a market like this, because people overestimate the risk of the thing they can't control (partners thinking about them badly enough to get fired) and underestimate the risk of the thing they think they *can* control (how they react to burnout). It's not really enough to say "you can control things when you're senior" because you have to actually *get* to the senior level without blowing your brains out. This industry conditions juniors to think everything is a sprint (because they don't really care which bodies they throw on a deal), but really, your own career is a marathon. It's far more lucrative to be a mediocre senior than to be a star junior puking twice a week from stress.

To the extent there's any "curve", I'd say it surrounds hours. When I was below 1600ish hours as a junior, I wasn't turning down anything if my day wasn't already totally packed. But if you're billing 2500+ as a first year, there's absolutely zero reason to take on more just because you think you have to have a yes-sir mentality.

[almostperfectt]

Agree that being honest about this is almost never the right move. The senior partner will almost assuredly know better/value more the junior partner and people don’t want to deal with personal conflict nonsense, no matter who is “at fault.” I have a similar partner and I try to turn down work from them when it is plausible, but sometimes they ask when I don’t have much going on and I just hold my nose and do it. One thing that helps is to find another partner that you have worked for and like working for and make it clear to them that you would love to be considered for their projects going forward. You can also make it known to the assigning partner that you are interested in work that is not this partner’s specialty, which may help.

Obviously this may depend on the firm and the group but that's so strange to me as someone who has been doing this a few years. The only way to get respect from these asshole supervisors is to show that you respect yourself and they can't push you around.

In my experience if there's a partner that one person can't stand working with, other associates have the same issue. Just be honest and move on and do good work. That shit partner is the one missing out, not you.

[Anonymous User]

Have a situation where I am getting staffed on a lot of deals with younger partner. This partner is smart, but also very rude and condescending (hence title), not just to me, but to everyone (juniors, opposing counsel). Approaches everything under the assumption that this partner's way is right and everyone else's way is wrong and, moreover, they were stupid for not doing it that way in the first place. Micromanages like no one I've ever seen before too.

Recently had a call where opposing counsel went bezerk on the phone because partner accused them of "not knowing what they were doing" and "this isn't how deals like this are done".

The worst part is the senior partner is under the assumption that me and this young partner will be a "team" moving forward.

On my part, I just plan on wrapping up my current stuff, biting my tongue and pinching my nose, and being "too busy" for future deals with this partner. If senior partner asks or tries to staff me, I am considering being direct and saying "I do not want to work with young partner, young partner's style is not conducive to my personal development" - this won't be a surprise to senior partner. I have a good rep and well liked, and also don't care that much about this job anymore. But curious if ppl here think that is a bad idea and I should say nothing.

How do you deal with partners like this? How do you get out from under their thumb?

Anon as this will be extra identifying: I was working on a deal with the worst "partner" I have ever worked under. The Spoiler Alert is sometimes there are no good options. I was staffed against my will to an extremely complex deal, under the laziest partner I've ever seen, that I still have PTSD from working for. Not only was the "partner" (glorified senior associate) excruciatingly lazy (would appear offline on days I had to file huge transactional documents with the SEC as a new junior totally alone) he was also rude and exhibited bias (referred to me as his secretary multiple times).

The firm I worked for during this time did virtually nothing when these written examples of bias were reported (by me 3x). In order to avoid this partner and get off the deal, I found as many side projects as I could to appear extremely busy. You have to get crafty. Even if you don't have many senior relationships, get in touch with mid-level associates who are busy and ask if they need any help. It sucks to be twice as busy but if it helps you get rotated away from the shitty partner it's definitely worth it. Often these were just little one-off research assignments that I could use to justify ignoring the partner's emails longer than he would've liked. Eventually, this arrangement forced him to reach out for further staffing & I was able to take my complaints to more senior individuals to be removed from underneath his authority which did work (for a time, though the partner's emails became more aggressive and rude as a result). Ultimately, I still felt like I was being punished for reporting his conduct and with the market so hot, I decided to leave for a better opportunity.

I really recommend utilizing your full network to force yourself onto new deals and away from this person. The more people you work for even if they're mid-levels, the more likely someone will come to your defense if his conduct is as egregious as you say. My other slice of advice? Save local copies of all of his emails on your desktop that way if you ever have to protect yourself you already have the narrative saved and ready to go.

Good luck.

[almostperfectt]

Have a situation where I am getting staffed on a lot of deals with younger partner. This partner is smart, but also very rude and condescending (hence title), not just to me, but to everyone (juniors, opposing counsel). Approaches everything under the assumption that this partner's way is right and everyone else's way is wrong and, moreover, they were stupid for not doing it that way in the first place. Micromanages like no one I've ever seen before too.

Recently had a call where opposing counsel went bezerk on the phone because partner accused them of "not knowing what they were doing" and "this isn't how deals like this are done".

The worst part is the senior partner is under the assumption that me and this young partner will be a "team" moving forward.

On my part, I just plan on wrapping up my current stuff, biting my tongue and pinching my nose, and being "too busy" for future deals with this partner. If senior partner asks or tries to staff me, I am considering being direct and saying "I do not want to work with young partner, young partner's style is not conducive to my personal development" - this won't be a surprise to senior partner. I have a good rep and well liked, and also don't care that much about this job anymore. But curious if ppl here think that is a bad idea and I should say nothing.

How do you deal with partners like this? How do you get out from under their thumb?

Anon as this will be extra identifying: I was working on a deal with the worst "partner" I have ever worked under. The Spoiler Alert is sometimes there are no good options. I was staffed against my will to an extremely complex deal, under the laziest partner I've ever seen, that I still have PTSD from working for. Not only was the "partner" (glorified senior associate) excruciatingly lazy (would appear offline on days I had to file huge transactional documents with the SEC as a new junior totally alone) he was also rude and exhibited bias (referred to me as his secretary multiple times).

The firm I worked for during this time did virtually nothing when these written examples of bias were reported (by me 3x). In order to avoid this partner and get off the deal, I found as many side projects as I could to appear extremely busy. You have to get crafty. Even if you don't have many senior relationships, get in touch with mid-level associates who are busy and ask if they need any help. It sucks to be twice as busy but if it helps you get rotated away from the shitty partner it's definitely worth it. Often these were just little one-off research assignments that I could use to justify ignoring the partner's emails longer than he would've liked. Eventually, this arrangement forced him to reach out for further staffing & I was able to take my complaints to more senior individuals to be removed from underneath his authority which did work (for a time, though the partner's emails became more aggressive and rude as a result). Ultimately, I still felt like I was being punished for reporting his conduct and with the market so hot, I decided to leave for a better opportunity.

I really recommend utilizing your full network to force yourself onto new deals and away from this person. The more people you work for even if they're mid-levels, the more likely someone will come to your defense if his conduct is as egregious as you say. My other slice of advice? Save local copies of all of his emails on your desktop that way if you ever have to protect yourself you already have the narrative saved and ready to go.

Good luck.

Wow sorry that you had to go through all of that. At any point did you just ask to be taken off the project or refuse to work with him? I've seen multiple people do that in the past (but unsure what year/level they were when it happened). They ended up making partner.

[Anonymous User]

Depending on the partner and situation, I’ve found it can be best to respond to them like you do any bully. A notoriously bad partner screamed at me and said the f word, so I fired back “f’ing do it yourself if my work is so bad.” The partner smiled and said you can do it and then treated me with much more respect. The partner wrote a great review which I was told was rare.

This wasn’t a partner I normally worked with, I had no interest in working with this partner, and I had other partners who I knew would have my back.

[Anonymous User]

Depending on the partner and situation, I’ve found it can be best to respond to them like you do any bully. A notoriously bad partner screamed at me and said the f word, so I fired back “f’ing do it yourself if my work is so bad.” The partner smiled and said you can do it and then treated me with much more respect. The partner wrote a great review which I was told was rare.

This wasn’t a partner I normally worked with, I had no interest in working with this partner, and I had other partners who I knew would have my back.

I know this is the received wisdom and it works for some people, but I have also seen it backfire spectacularly. Associate told a partner with a richly deserved reputation for being an asshole to back off in very blunt terms and fireworks ensued. I should clarify that I did not actually see this happen, but I did hear it happen, and that from the other end of the very long hallway through two closed doors. The associate left/was pushed out 6 months later. The problem is you don't know until you try it which way it will go....

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Depending on the partner and situation, I’ve found it can be best to respond to them like you do any bully. A notoriously bad partner screamed at me and said the f word, so I fired back “f’ing do it yourself if my work is so bad.” The partner smiled and said you can do it and then treated me with much more respect. The partner wrote a great review which I was told was rare.

This wasn’t a partner I normally worked with, I had no interest in working with this partner, and I had other partners who I knew would have my back.

This will *generally* end spectacularly badly, as 90% of associates will not have any partners that "have their back" when it comes down to it.

Partners are always overly busy and overly stressed, and almost all of them have big egos. They'll forget 1000 typos you made, and 100 of their emails you ignored (at least for a little bit), and even 10 times you fucked something up badly enough that they had to call the client. But they'll never forget the one time they felt personally disrespected by you. You'll do more damage to your career in one sentence than *years* of shitty work product.

The winning play is always just to do mediocre work while you have it from them, ignore things as your mental health requires and get yourself on matters with other people. A request from a staffing person not to work with someone is honored 95% of the time, and if all else fails, you have to *politely* tell them that you don't think you two work well together. Even psychos don't want to staff people who don't want to work for them. They want a docile sheep to slaughter, not one who kicks and screams.

[Anonymous User]

Depending on the partner and situation, I’ve found it can be best to respond to them like you do any bully. A notoriously bad partner screamed at me and said the f word, so I fired back “f’ing do it yourself if my work is so bad.” The partner smiled and said you can do it and then treated me with much more respect. The partner wrote a great review which I was told was rare.

This wasn’t a partner I normally worked with, I had no interest in working with this partner, and I had other partners who I knew would have my back.

This will *generally* end spectacularly badly, as 90% of associates will not have any partners that "have their back" when it comes down to it.

Partners are always overly busy and overly stressed, and almost all of them have big egos. They'll forget 1000 typos you made, and 100 of their emails you ignored (at least for a little bit), and even 10 times you fucked something up badly enough that they had to call the client. But they'll never forget the one time they felt personally disrespected by you. You'll do more damage to your career in one sentence than *years* of shitty work product.

The winning play is always just to do mediocre work while you have it from them, ignore things as your mental health requires and get yourself on matters with other people. A request from a staffing person not to work with someone is honored 95% of the time, and if all else fails, you have to *politely* tell them that you don't think you two work well together. Even psychos don't want to staff people who don't want to work for them. They want a docile sheep to slaughter, not one who kicks and screams.

Agreed with all of this.

Anyone who tells you to chew out your boss in spectacular fashion is trolling you. I'm sure everyone in the office clapped after the partner gave this person a great review.

[Anonymous User]

I saw this once at Greenberg Traurig. An associate called an asshole partner an asshole because (true to form) the partner was being an asshole. Associate was fired shortly thereafter. Parter is still an asshole. Still gets his pay checks.

[Anonymous User]

Anon who posted about firing back at the partner. Not trolling, but some additional context might be helpful. This dealt with a very senior partner who was clearly on his way out, and it was clear this was a one-off assignment. When I mentioned I was working with this partner to the rainmaker I mainly work with, she told me to let her know if he gave me problems - his reputation was that bad. This partner was clearly an old school kind of partner for whom yelling was the norm, and I had a feeling he could actually respect pushback. I had a sense that he would respond to push back the way he did, and he opened the door first by saying the f word and raising his voice. These situations are clearly very circumstance-specific, but I think this was the one of the few cases where this tactic worked.

[Anonymous User]

Have a situation where I am getting staffed on a lot of deals with younger partner. This partner is smart, but also very rude and condescending (hence title), not just to me, but to everyone (juniors, opposing counsel). Approaches everything under the assumption that this partner's way is right and everyone else's way is wrong and, moreover, they were stupid for not doing it that way in the first place. Micromanages like no one I've ever seen before too.

Recently had a call where opposing counsel went bezerk on the phone because partner accused them of "not knowing what they were doing" and "this isn't how deals like this are done".

The worst part is the senior partner is under the assumption that me and this young partner will be a "team" moving forward.

On my part, I just plan on wrapping up my current stuff, biting my tongue and pinching my nose, and being "too busy" for future deals with this partner. If senior partner asks or tries to staff me, I am considering being direct and saying "I do not want to work with young partner, young partner's style is not conducive to my personal development" - this won't be a surprise to senior partner. I have a good rep and well liked, and also don't care that much about this job anymore. But curious if ppl here think that is a bad idea and I should say nothing.

How do you deal with partners like this? How do you get out from under their thumb?

Anon as this will be extra identifying: I was working on a deal with the worst "partner" I have ever worked under. The Spoiler Alert is sometimes there are no good options. I was staffed against my will to an extremely complex deal, under the laziest partner I've ever seen, that I still have PTSD from working for. Not only was the "partner" (glorified senior associate) excruciatingly lazy (would appear offline on days I had to file huge transactional documents with the SEC as a new junior totally alone) he was also rude and exhibited bias (referred to me as his secretary multiple times).

The firm I worked for during this time did virtually nothing when these written examples of bias were reported (by me 3x). In order to avoid this partner and get off the deal, I found as many side projects as I could to appear extremely busy. You have to get crafty. Even if you don't have many senior relationships, get in touch with mid-level associates who are busy and ask if they need any help. It sucks to be twice as busy but if it helps you get rotated away from the shitty partner it's definitely worth it. Often these were just little one-off research assignments that I could use to justify ignoring the partner's emails longer than he would've liked. Eventually, this arrangement forced him to reach out for further staffing & I was able to take my complaints to more senior individuals to be removed from underneath his authority which did work (for a time, though the partner's emails became more aggressive and rude as a result). Ultimately, I still felt like I was being punished for reporting his conduct and with the market so hot, I decided to leave for a better opportunity.

I really recommend utilizing your full network to force yourself onto new deals and away from this person. The more people you work for even if they're mid-levels, the more likely someone will come to your defense if his conduct is as egregious as you say. My other slice of advice? Save local copies of all of his emails on your desktop that way if you ever have to protect yourself you already have the narrative saved and ready to go.

Good luck.

Wow sorry that you had to go through all of that. At any point did you just ask to be taken off the project or refuse to work with him? I've seen multiple people do that in the past (but unsure what year/level they were when it happened). They ended up making partner.

Anon from above -- Hi, yes. After a significant period of time (and enough well-documented abuse), I was taken off of this partner's deals, but as the partner had relatively few associates who could stand working for him, being removed did precious little to stop his constant emailing. As other associates have noted, it's very hard to be protected from someone in that kind of position of power without another person equally so to have your back. Most juniors have few relationships, esp. w/ covid-19 & virtual starts in play.

Ironically, it was the fact that the partner was actively jeopardizing the deal & pissing off the client that gave me the pretext and justification to report him as many times as I had to. Once I made plain that I believed I had an ethical duty to report it there wasn't much my firm could outwardly do to me. Still, quitting just seemed to make the most sense vs. staying in an environment that was overwhelmingly toxic for me. It's just a job after all & the partners at said firm seem really miserable anyway so, it was not like I was giving up a great future...

[bajablast]

Depending on the partner and situation, I’ve found it can be best to respond to them like you do any bully. A notoriously bad partner screamed at me and said the f word, so I fired back “f’ing do it yourself if my work is so bad.” The partner smiled and said you can do it and then treated me with much more respect. The partner wrote a great review which I was told was rare.

This wasn’t a partner I normally worked with, I had no interest in working with this partner, and I had other partners who I knew would have my back.

This will *generally* end spectacularly badly, as 90% of associates will not have any partners that "have their back" when it comes down to it.

Partners are always overly busy and overly stressed, and almost all of them have big egos. They'll forget 1000 typos you made, and 100 of their emails you ignored (at least for a little bit), and even 10 times you fucked something up badly enough that they had to call the client. But they'll never forget the one time they felt personally disrespected by you. You'll do more damage to your career in one sentence than *years* of shitty work product.

The winning play is always just to do mediocre work while you have it from them, ignore things as your mental health requires and get yourself on matters with other people. A request from a staffing person not to work with someone is honored 95% of the time, and if all else fails, you have to *politely* tell them that you don't think you two work well together. Even psychos don't want to staff people who don't want to work for them. They want a docile sheep to slaughter, not one who kicks and screams.

You have some of the best advice on this forum, no joke