Kirkland (NY) vs V30 (London) Forum

[Anonymous User]

I don't want to give away which V30 I'm referring to, but it is a very good one. Also, note that their London outpost really only does capital markets.

Before you rush into posting about how this is an obvious choice, hear me out.

V30 Pros:
I am interested in capital markets work (for which the firm is pretty good), I have family in Europe, the work/life balance is FAR better, I really liked every single person I met throughout the interview process (including one I got along REALLY well with), and the pay is higher because of COLA.

V30 Cons:
Presumably more constrained exit/lateral options, harder to break into NY (which I eventually do want to do), probably less of a support network (very small intake) and therefore more chance to mess up, uncertain future because of Brexit. To be honest, I also really don't want to live in England.

Kirkland Pros:
It's Kirkland, resume gold, great corporate practices, I would have incredible flexibility in terms of the practices I want to explore, I would get to start off in NY, I liked most of the people I met from there a lot (and I didn't feel negatively about the people I didn't like a lot, just neutral), and if I went there, I would get to determine my own exit options just by having a very wide range of practices I could go into.

Kirkland cons:
I've heard some nasty things about the environment being very much a shark tank where you're expected to compete with everyone, I would be pretty far away from my family (this is a big one, since family is extremely important to me), and I would have a worse work/life balance.

Naturally, this is a decision I'm going to discuss with people at both of these firms, my family, and so on. That said, I would greatly appreciate any advice or insight based on the considerations I've provided here.

[Anonymous User]

It's Kirkland, equivalent to resume gold, it's top tier in everything

[Anonymous User]

It's Kirkland, equivalent to resume gold, it's top tier in everything

Hyperbole. It's just very good to have a V10 on the resume is all I'm saying.

[Anonymous User]

It's Kirkland, equivalent to resume gold, it's top tier in everything

Hyperbole. It's just very good to have a V10 on the resume is all I'm saying.

Not to hijack but are all v10's outside WLRK/CSM kinda looked at the same on a resume?

[Anonymous User]

It's Kirkland, equivalent to resume gold, it's top tier in everything

Hyperbole. It's just very good to have a V10 on the resume is all I'm saying.

Not to hijack but are all v10's outside WLRK/CSM kinda looked at the same on a resume?

All V10's outside WLRK are looked at largely the same. After you get your foot in the door exit options will be due to what clients you know and what experience you have on your deal sheet.

[Anonymous User]

repeat post

[Anonymous User]

[London makes it] harder to break into NY (which I eventually do want to do). . . . To be honest, I also really don't want to live in England.

Just go to a firm other than Kirkland if you don't want to go to Kirkland. Sounds like you shouldn't be looking at London to me.

[LBJ's Hair]

not sure how anonymous BigLaw lawyers are gonna help you decide if you want to ... move to London.

like, that's the threshold question here. and it's a completely personal decision.

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland midlevel here, two observations:

1) the lifestyle in London seems miserable. B/c lawyers there (and this prob holds especially true for American-trained lawyers) are often working on deals with American counterparties, they often seem to work very late.

2) K&E’s NY office seems to have a disproportionate amount of unpleasant people (there are plenty of good people there as well, and this may hold true across all law firms bc NY corporate lawyers are often generally busier than people in other cities and bc sharp-elbowed people self-select into NY).

[2013]

It's Kirkland, equivalent to resume gold, it's top tier in everything

Hyperbole. It's just very good to have a V10 on the resume is all I'm saying.

You and one million other associates will have this on your resume.

[Anonymous User]

[London makes it] harder to break into NY (which I eventually do want to do). . . . To be honest, I also really don't want to live in England.

Just go to a firm other than Kirkland if you don't want to go to Kirkland. Sounds like you shouldn't be looking at London to me.

Wouldn’t be surprised if OP doesn’t have other V10 offers given the scenario above. Based on my experience at a lower T14, there was a notable difference between the students that went to Kirkland and other V10 firms, and typically those students did not have offers at other V10 firms. Take that however which way you want but this was a common pattern across years.

[Sackboy]

Wouldn’t be surprised if OP doesn’t have other V10 offers given the scenario above. Based on my experience at a lower T14, there was a notable difference between the students that went to Kirkland and other V10 firms, and typically those students did not have offers at other V10 firms. Take that however which way you want but this was a common pattern across years.

Seems like a flame anecdotal experience. Kirkland's GPA numbers are published internally by T14 schools, and they were the same or slightly higher than the rest of their peers in non-NY markets and the same or slightly lower in NY. No clue why people still peddle such useless anecdotes about firms when we have objective data to look at.

[Anonymous User]

Wouldn’t be surprised if OP doesn’t have other V10 offers given the scenario above. Based on my experience at a lower T14, there was a notable difference between the students that went to Kirkland and other V10 firms, and typically those students did not have offers at other V10 firms. Take that however which way you want but this was a common pattern across years.

Seems like a flame anecdotal experience. Kirkland's GPA numbers are published internally by T14 schools, and they were the same or slightly higher than the rest of their peers in non-NY markets and the same or slightly lower in NY. No clue why people still peddle such useless anecdotes about firms when we have objective data to look at.

Was curious, so pulled EIP data from my year. This is % of offers given to students with "honors" after 1L (NY offices only):

WLRK: 100%
Sullivan & Cromwell: 100%
Cravath: 92%
Paul, Weiss: 92%
Latham: 92%
Davis Polk: 91%
Skadden: 91%
Simpson Thacher: 86%
Cleary: 80%
Gibson Dunn: 71%
Kirkland (aggregating IP, "general," corporate-specific): 43%

Seems like -- to the extent that this matters, which maybe it doesn't -- Kirkland NY is much less grade selective than its peers. At least my year.

Again, not sure if this actually "matters." But it's consistent w/mine, and others, anecdotal experiences at least.

[2013]

Wouldn’t be surprised if OP doesn’t have other V10 offers given the scenario above. Based on my experience at a lower T14, there was a notable difference between the students that went to Kirkland and other V10 firms, and typically those students did not have offers at other V10 firms. Take that however which way you want but this was a common pattern across years.

Seems like a flame anecdotal experience. Kirkland's GPA numbers are published internally by T14 schools, and they were the same or slightly higher than the rest of their peers in non-NY markets and the same or slightly lower in NY. No clue why people still peddle such useless anecdotes about firms when we have objective data to look at.

I don’t think it’s a flame. I don’t think Kirkland is as selective as other v10 firms nor does it want to be. Some of the v10s are known for being more grade sensitive (Wachtell, SullCrom, Latham, Gibson Dunn), so it wouldn’t surprise me if someone’s only v10 is from Kirkland. However, I don’t think Kirkland is any less selective than most firms in the V20.

[Anonymous User]

the way this thread went from "should I live in London or NYC" to "is KE actually prestigious" to someone from CLS posting stone scholar ratio of all V10 firms in just a few responses ...

OP, KE sounds like a better option for you career wise, but whether it's enough to justify not going to London and (potentially) spending more time with fam/ a firm with better culture is a question only you can answer

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thread devolved into a bit of a sh*tshow (not unexpected on here tbh). Maybe just to steer it back in the right direction: anon midlevel above mentioned KE's NY office has some bad apples. Was wondering if that was anyone else's experience too.

I suppose on another level the question is also how big of a distinction there is between these two offices in terms of long-term career options. Would I be in a considerably worse spot in the long term if I turned down Kirkland?

[Anonymous User]

Look, I wouldn't make my decision based on K&E's hiring practices, but if we're gonna talk about it, may as well have the data out there.

[Bdgerald]

1) the lifestyle in London seems miserable. B/c lawyers there (and this prob holds especially true for American-trained lawyers) are often working on deals with American counterparties, they often seem to work very late.

This is the reason not to go to London - you will be doing cross border deals with US clients and your hours will be absolutely horrible. I'd rather work at the worst US law firm before doing this.

[Anonymous User]

Im the original “flame” poster here but with that said I would still pick Kirkland in this scenario—unless you’re hoping to be in London. This background noise that I’m taking about is not even recognized by most (sane) people and done the line having Kirkland on your resume is certainly valuable rather than a much lower ranked firm, even if some here might agree. Sorry for derailing your thread.

My original point was that across 4 classes that I’ve seen from my lower T14 law school, there was a difference between the students going to Kirkland versus other v10 firms. These students were often more outgoing and would probably perform better in Kirkland’s environment than some other “better” students. But none of these students were ever on law review (for whatever that’s worth) and were lower in the class than their v10 peers. Just my observations and entirely recognize that it is anecdotal.

[Anonymous User]

Im the original “flame” poster here but with that said I would still pick Kirkland in this scenario—unless you’re hoping to be in London. This background noise that I’m taking about is not even recognized by most (sane) people and done the line having Kirkland on your resume is certainly valuable rather than a much lower ranked firm, even if some here might agree. Sorry for derailing your thread.

My original point was that across 4 classes that I’ve seen from my lower T14 law school, there was a difference between the students going to Kirkland versus other v10 firms. These students were often more outgoing and would probably perform better in Kirkland’s environment than some other “better” students. But none of these students were ever on law review (for whatever that’s worth) and were lower in the class than their v10 peers. Just my observations and entirely recognize that it is anecdotal.

I'm the guy who posted the EIP data. My point, also, was not to flame Kirkland or derail the thread.

Just was responding to Sackboy---who's a great TLS poster, fairly pushes back on the Kirkland trolling, but, in this specific case, was overstating things a bit, at least in my opinion/experience.

That was really the only reason I posted it. I have pals at Kirkland, think working there could be good for OP, not trying to say that PW is "better" or w/e because they hire more Stone students. I just thought that the original Anon was correct that their hiring practices vary a bit from the rest of the V10.

Just wanted to make this all clear.

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

Was curious, so pulled EIP data from my year. This is % of offers given to students with "honors" after 1L (NY offices only):

WLRK: 100%
Sullivan & Cromwell: 100%
Cravath: 92%
Paul, Weiss: 92%
Latham: 92%
Davis Polk: 91%
Skadden: 91%
Simpson Thacher: 86%
Cleary: 80%
Gibson Dunn: 71%
Kirkland (aggregating IP, "general," corporate-specific): 43%

Seems like -- to the extent that this matters, which maybe it doesn't -- Kirkland NY is much less grade selective than its peers. At least my year.

Again, not sure if this actually "matters." But it's consistent w/mine, and others, anecdotal experiences at least.

What is the % for Kirkland NY when all practice groups are included? Seems kinda unfair to exclude litigation and other groups for Kirkland but not all the others. Still assuming it's at or near the bottom though.

[Anonymous User]

Im the original “flame” poster here but with that said I would still pick Kirkland in this scenario—unless you’re hoping to be in London. This background noise that I’m taking about is not even recognized by most (sane) people and done the line having Kirkland on your resume is certainly valuable rather than a much lower ranked firm, even if some here might agree. Sorry for derailing your thread.

My original point was that across 4 classes that I’ve seen from my lower T14 law school, there was a difference between the students going to Kirkland versus other v10 firms. These students were often more outgoing and would probably perform better in Kirkland’s environment than some other “better” students. But none of these students were ever on law review (for whatever that’s worth) and were lower in the class than their v10 peers. Just my observations and entirely recognize that it is anecdotal.

I'm the guy who posted the EIP data. My point, also, was not to flame Kirkland or derail the thread.

Just was responding to Sackboy---who's a great TLS poster, fairly pushes back on the Kirkland trolling, but, in this specific case, was overstating things a bit, at least in my opinion/experience.

That was really the only reason I posted it. I have pals at Kirkland, think working there could be good for OP, not trying to say that PW is "better" or w/e because they hire more Stone students. I just thought that the original Anon was correct that their hiring practices vary a bit from the rest of the V10.

Just wanted to make this all clear.

OP here. A couple of the anons above are correct in that I didn't get offers from any other V10, although I did CBs with 2 of them, including one with a 90%+ honors offer rate (I only did screeners with five V10s altogether - including Kirkland), so I sincerely doubt my grades were a problem.

That said, and with all due respect, I'm not all that interested in the perceived prestige of the firms' respective intakes. I just want to know if Kirkland's a cool place to work at (are the hours worse than most firms, is it a somewhat hostile environment, etc.) and whether London's a plausible career choice for someone who eventually wants to come to NY (especially considering that probably the biggest reason I am considering London is that I like the people at the office + I would be closer to my family).

[Anonymous User]

OP here. A couple of the anons above are correct in that I didn't get offers from any other V10, although I did CBs with 2 of them, including one with a 90%+ honors offer rate (I only did screeners with five V10s altogether - including Kirkland), so I sincerely doubt my grades were a problem.

That said, and with all due respect, I'm not all that interested in the perceived prestige of the firms' respective intakes. I just want to know if Kirkland's a cool place to work at (are the hours worse than most firms, is it a somewhat hostile environment, etc.) and whether London's a plausible career choice for someone who eventually wants to come to NY (especially considering that probably the biggest reason I am considering London is that I like the people at the office + I would be closer to my family).

Reread your original post. If you want to (a) work longterm in NY, at some point; and (b) don't actually like England, this is, in a professional sense, a no-brainer. You should absolutely accept a Kirkland NY offer over a V30 capmarkets outpost in London.

We can't really weigh the family element of this---you say proximity to them is very important to you. And yes, anecdotally, Kirkland NY has a rep as a sweatshop (although, tbh, most well-regarded corporate practices are sweatshops right now, given state of market).

But if it were me, I wouldn't even be considering the London option.

[dyemond]

I work at KE and work with a lot of NY people. Maybe I'm just so entrenched in the system that KE just feels "normal" but the anecdotes about it being this uber-competitive place just come off as extremely misinformed. It's a demanding work environment and people do put in a lot of hours -- I also get drinks with my coworkers and most people are pretty friendly, chat in the halls, etc., so maybe I'm just in a decent group (and have been for years) but the general reputation of the place (at least, internally) bandied about on online forums is contrary to my experience.