Benefits and bonuses: what to look out for? Forum

[iar]

When deciding on firm offers, what benefits should I be paying attention to? And what do bonuses look like? [are we talking market v. above market, performance v. lock step?]

I have offers from firms that are relatively similar, and pay the same salary. But it seems to me that benefits and bonuses can differ a lot across firms.

What has turned out to be more/less important to you over time? Bonus? 401k type? Health plan type? Obviously, some of these will be particular to the person, but is there a consensus on what I should be on the lookout for?

Also, is are these the kinds of details that I should ask recruiting for once I have the offer? Or is there an online resource somewhere?

[SummerAssociate1689]

There was a thread about this but, whether the 401(k) plan allows for post tax contributions so you can do a a MBDR. I'd also look for gym subsidies and what the dinner budget is. Other than that everyone is largely similar. I'd also ask about office situation - I hate sharing offices but that's just me...

[papermateflair]

I would care more about bonuses being market than any other minor benefits. Is there an hours requirement for bonuses, or do you just need to be in good standing? Are the bonuses market in the amount, or is there some sort of sliding scale? While bonuses are obviously smaller when you're a first year, by the time you're a mid-level it really makes a difference if you get $50,000 for hitting for a fairly low hours target (1900) or being in good standing vs. having to hit some higher target (2100? 2200?) and not being guaranteed that it'll be market.

[Anonymous User]

Vacation policy - accruing time vs “unlimited” PTO. If you can cash out unused accrued time when you leave, that’s almost like another little bonus in itself (could be worth five figures). Unlimited PTO is largely a rip off designed to avoid that associate-friendly outcome, not to let you actually take more vacations.

[iar]

Vacation policy - accruing time vs “unlimited” PTO. If you can cash out unused accrued time when you leave, that’s almost like another little bonus in itself (could be worth five figures). Unlimited PTO is largely a rip off designed to avoid that associate-friendly outcome, not to let you actually take more vacations.

Can someone speak more to this? I've heard people say that "unlimited vacation" doesn't work because it's hard to take them. And that it can be easier to take vacations when the firm has a "x vacation days" policy. Is this because the policy means that associates either have to take those days or accrue them for pay?

[Anonymous User]

When deciding on firm offers, what benefits should I be paying attention to? And what do bonuses look like? [are we talking market v. above market, performance v. lock step?]

I have offers from firms that are relatively similar, and pay the same salary. But it seems to me that benefits and bonuses can differ a lot across firms.

What has turned out to be more/less important to you over time? Bonus? 401k type? Health plan type? Obviously, some of these will be particular to the person, but is there a consensus on what I should be on the lookout for?

Also, is are these the kinds of details that I should ask recruiting for once I have the offer? Or is there an online resource somewhere?

Small in the grand scheme of things, but something to be aware of: ask about monthly health insurance costs. I've heard of some firms making associates pay over $400 monthly for an individual while others cost $0 per month. Most are somewhere in between.

[xiaoguami]

Vacation policy - accruing time vs “unlimited” PTO. If you can cash out unused accrued time when you leave, that’s almost like another little bonus in itself (could be worth five figures). Unlimited PTO is largely a rip off designed to avoid that associate-friendly outcome, not to let you actually take more vacations.

Can someone speak more to this? I've heard people say that "unlimited vacation" doesn't work because it's hard to take them. And that it can be easier to take vacations when the firm has a "x vacation days" policy. Is this because the policy means that associates either have to take those days or accrue them for pay?

I've been at two unlimited vacation firms so don't know how an accrual system works in detail, but in my experience compared to other firms, it's an anchoring thing -- if there's X number of vacation days, people will take X because that's the expectation. If it's unlimited vacation, it becomes a race to the bottom. And if the timing isn't perfect, partners will always think, oh, well, we have unlimited vacation, you can just wait a couple of weeks etc. And once you do go on vacation, partners will think, oh, well, we have unlimited vacation, it's fine if we bother them during vacation.

I would 100% take the standard U.S. 2 weeks paid vacation over "unlimited vacation." Both of the places I've been at have been disrespectful of vacation time; my current one, absolutely terrible -- unless you're getting married, you're expected to check email. And yes, you can take your vacation time at the end when you quit if you have accrued vacation, at least for one of my associate friends at an accrued-vacation firm.

Subject to the same dynamic, with yet sadder outcomes, is unlimited parental leave.

[xiaoguami]

When deciding on firm offers, what benefits should I be paying attention to? And what do bonuses look like? [are we talking market v. above market, performance v. lock step?]

I have offers from firms that are relatively similar, and pay the same salary. But it seems to me that benefits and bonuses can differ a lot across firms.

What has turned out to be more/less important to you over time? Bonus? 401k type? Health plan type? Obviously, some of these will be particular to the person, but is there a consensus on what I should be on the lookout for?

Also, is are these the kinds of details that I should ask recruiting for once I have the offer? Or is there an online resource somewhere?

Small in the grand scheme of things, but something to be aware of: ask about monthly health insurance costs. I've heard of some firms making associates pay over $400 monthly for an individual while others cost $0 per month. Most are somewhere in between.

Echo this! Have a friend whose insurance is ~$400 a month, mine is less than $30. It's an HSA plan so it's pretty limited coverage, but if you're healthy, you also get the benefit of the $3500 non-taxable income from the HSA. Probably not worth deciding between firms about, but something to be aware of.

I'm at a very perk-free firm -- our gym doesn't even have free weights -- but I'd say the benefits/perks that conceivably could make an appreciable difference in deciding between firms are:

• 401k matching -- that's free money!
  Internal office v. external office
  Shared v. solo office (I cannot imagine sharing)
  Gym that could replace having to pay for a gym membership
  Subsidized cafeteria (unless they tax you for it. Then that sucks. Our office literally does not have a common area for eating, much less a cafeteria, and it's annoying)
  Doordash budget
  Comped Ubers home if you leave after a certain hour and bill a certain amount
  Quality and cost of health insurance
  Parking spot availability
  If you're a parent, parental leave, availability of subsidized/convenient childcare

That said I'm pretty sure none of the above would ever justify going to a below-market bonus firm or not going to an above-market firm. (Maybe if there were incredible childcare benefits, but any firm that has that is going to be market or above)

[NewSouthernAssociate]

To expand upon one of the comments above, if the firms require associates to hit a certain minimum number of hours to get a bonus, you absolutely need to figure out what hours count toward that bonus. For example, some firms let you count unlimited pro bono hours, business development hours, or other types of firm hours, whereas others don’t count soft billables at all or only count up to a certain amount.

[Anonymous User]

This is all super helpful! I don't know why more SAs don't ask about this.

[Anonymous User]

This is all super helpful! I don't know why more SAs don't ask about this.

Agreed. Especially if you need health insurance for a spouse and/or family... It can really ake a big difference I believe SullCrom pays for your entire health insurance premium whereas others will make you pay above 10k for a family plan. Also, 401k match is free money.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Vacation policy - accruing time vs “unlimited” PTO. If you can cash out unused accrued time when you leave, that’s almost like another little bonus in itself (could be worth five figures). Unlimited PTO is largely a rip off designed to avoid that associate-friendly outcome, not to let you actually take more vacations.

Can someone speak more to this? I've heard people say that "unlimited vacation" doesn't work because it's hard to take them. And that it can be easier to take vacations when the firm has a "x vacation days" policy. Is this because the policy means that associates either have to take those days or accrue them for pay?

The amount of vacation you take doesn't really matter when you have to hit X number of hours in a year and consequently be available often enough to hit it. You might as well get paid upon departure for the time you inevitably will not take.

[LBJ's Hair]

Out of sheer curiosity -- what firms do 401K match for attorneys, if any? impression was that for [some tax or ERISA or w/e reasons that I'm frankly too lazy to attempt to understand] it's not really a thing. but maybe that's bullshit

[Anonymous User]

Out of sheer curiosity -- what firms do 401K match for attorneys, if any? impression was that for [some tax or ERISA or w/e reasons that I'm frankly too lazy to attempt to understand] it's not really a thing. but maybe that's bullshit

When I was at KE, they had automatic 7% of salary contributions after you stayed for 3 years (technically it was 2 years but it was set with some very strange guidelines that required it to be two June to June years or something like that so it was functionally 3 years for new classes). The contribution was capped at 7% of 200k though. Not sure if it still exists and I didn't stay long enough to take advantage of it.

[oiloiloil]

There is no actual ERISA reason that law firms can't do 401k matches, it is just cheapness and no desire to provide the benefit. The ERISA rules can lead to plans needing to be structured in a specific way based on employee makeup, but its not prohibitive and not beyond what other companies would have to go through.

Big if true that KE actually matches after a certain amount of time; have never heard that.

[LBJ's Hair]

There is no actual ERISA reason that law firms can't do 401k matches, it is just cheapness and no desire to provide the benefit. The ERISA rules can lead to plans needing to be structured in a specific way based on employee makeup, but its not prohibitive and not beyond what other companies would have to go through.

Big if true that KE actually matches after a certain amount of time; have never heard that.

some do it for staff only, which made me think there was something to this, but I guess not.

[Jchance]

There was a thread about this but, whether the 401(k) plan allows for post tax contributions so you can do a a MBDR.

+1