Pittsburgh Market Forum

[Creed bratton esq]

Curious if anyone future or current wants to discuss firms in the Pittsburgh market.

Based on my limited knowledge it seems like Jones Day offers the most to new associates at $210k but Reed Smith is pretty darn close with its recent bump to $205k. I’ve also heard JD gets passed up by other firms after year 1 but wasn’t sure if this held true in secondary markets like Pittsburgh.

I also know McGuireWoods and K&L are up there too. Also, I’ve heard Morgan Lewis is too but I’m not sure if they hire first years.

Any insight about the Burgh would be greatly appreciated!

[Lacepiece23]

I worked at RS for a while. That’s probably your second best bet for comp after ML. ML is Cravath scale even in Pittsburgh but they only hire an associate once in a blue moon and aren’t known as a great place to work.

I have a friend who worked at JD and RS and he has done better comp wise at RS due to them not having a black box system.

Not too sure about what KL is doing these days. Same with MW.

I will say that I don’t think these salaries will stick. We’ve had a crazy bull run, but I expect them all to cut hard at the first sign things are going South. A lot of these firms have begrudgingly increased comp.

RS was at like 120 in 2014.

[Creed bratton esq]

I worked at RS for a while. That’s probably your second best bet for comp after ML. ML is Cravath scale even in Pittsburgh but they only hire an associate once in a blue moon and aren’t known as a great place to work.

I have a friend who worked at JD and RS and he has done better comp wise at RS due to them not having a black box system.

Not too sure about what KL is doing these days. Same with MW.

I will say that I don’t think these salaries will stick. We’ve had a crazy bull run, but I expect them all to cut hard at the first sign things are going South. A lot of these firms have begrudgingly increased comp.

RS was at like 120 in 2014.

Interesting - thank you for the insight!

I was shocked to see RS jump that high and was wondering the same. Was your friend happy at JD while he was there?

Also, is there any sense of which firm is the “top” (i.e. is there an “ideal” landing spot for a new associate) or are they roughly all the same within the Pittsburgh market?

[Lacepiece23]

I worked at RS for a while. That’s probably your second best bet for comp after ML. ML is Cravath scale even in Pittsburgh but they only hire an associate once in a blue moon and aren’t known as a great place to work.

I have a friend who worked at JD and RS and he has done better comp wise at RS due to them not having a black box system.

Not too sure about what KL is doing these days. Same with MW.

I will say that I don’t think these salaries will stick. We’ve had a crazy bull run, but I expect them all to cut hard at the first sign things are going South. A lot of these firms have begrudgingly increased comp.

RS was at like 120 in 2014.

Interesting - thank you for the insight!

I was shocked to see RS jump that high and was wondering the same. Was your friend happy at JD while he was there?

Also, is there any sense of which firm is the “top” (i.e. is there an “ideal” landing spot for a new associate) or are they roughly all the same within the Pittsburgh market?

I was pretty shocked to hear about RS too. They actually cut my salary like 15% during the pandemic and for a while I was at like 190k as a fifth year lol. Then, they move first years within 20k of where I was at when I left as a fifth year. I was also out in Philly by that point so comp should have been way higher. But I digress. Just meant this to say that it can be really fickle and at the first sign of trouble, they will drop salaries.

Regarding JD, I interviewed there twice and turned them down twice. I almost went there. It's a very conservative office. Most people between RS and JD choose RS. JD tends to get the T14 people who go there blindly because its seen as more prestigious within the T14 law schools. But it seems that most law students have gotten hip to the fact that no one in Pittsburgh cares about the vault.

I tend to think that JD works you harder, but it's tough to say. You might get more doc review at JD which is nice in the early years (doing really "junior" work can be a slog).

I'm biased but I still think RS is top with JD being a bit more grade selective/prestige obsessed. I don't really know who picks K&L over the two if they have the option. K&L had its problems in years passed but has seemed to have bounced back nicely.

MW and Dentons seem like decent options. I know some of the folks at MW and even someone who stayed there for a long time and was happy. Smaller office though. People use to say good things about Dentons (Cohen), but I don't know what's become of it now that its Dentons.

I'd probably stay away from Buchanon and Eckert. But, again, this is just basic generalizations and based on outdated information.

[Creed bratton esq]

I worked at RS for a while. That’s probably your second best bet for comp after ML. ML is Cravath scale even in Pittsburgh but they only hire an associate once in a blue moon and aren’t known as a great place to work.

I have a friend who worked at JD and RS and he has done better comp wise at RS due to them not having a black box system.

Not too sure about what KL is doing these days. Same with MW.

I will say that I don’t think these salaries will stick. We’ve had a crazy bull run, but I expect them all to cut hard at the first sign things are going South. A lot of these firms have begrudgingly increased comp.

RS was at like 120 in 2014.

Interesting - thank you for the insight!

I was shocked to see RS jump that high and was wondering the same. Was your friend happy at JD while he was there?

Also, is there any sense of which firm is the “top” (i.e. is there an “ideal” landing spot for a new associate) or are they roughly all the same within the Pittsburgh market?

I was pretty shocked to hear about RS too. They actually cut my salary like 15% during the pandemic and for a while I was at like 190k as a fifth year lol. Then, they move first years within 20k of where I was at when I left as a fifth year. I was also out in Philly by that point so comp should have been way higher. But I digress. Just meant this to say that it can be really fickle and at the first sign of trouble, they will drop salaries.

Regarding JD, I interviewed there twice and turned them down twice. I almost went there. It's a very conservative office. Most people between RS and JD choose RS. JD tends to get the T14 people who go there blindly because its seen as more prestigious within the T14 law schools. But it seems that most law students have gotten hip to the fact that no one in Pittsburgh cares about the vault.

I tend to think that JD works you harder, but it's tough to say. You might get more doc review at JD which is nice in the early years (doing really "junior" work can be a slog).

I'm biased but I still think RS is top with JD being a bit more grade selective/prestige obsessed. I don't really know who picks K&L over the two if they have the option. K&L had its problems in years passed but has seemed to have bounced back nicely.

MW and Dentons seem like decent options. I know some of the folks at MW and even someone who stayed there for a long time and was happy. Smaller office though. People use to say good things about Dentons (Cohen), but I don't know what's become of it now that its Dentons.

I'd probably stay away from Buchanon and Eckert. But, again, this is just basic generalizations and based on outdated information.

Thanks for the insight - that is all incredibly helpful!

That makes sense about JD…my intuition was that it was the top based on the T14 gravitation but of course there’s always more to the story. Everyone I’ve met there seems really nice but I can only imagine how conservative it is. I’ve heard mixed things on how brutal the workload is.

Growing up in the Burgh I always assumed RS was the top (having no legal background) and I also imagine it has the top rep from the general public too.

I know some junior associates at KL who seem happy and summer associates at MW/DCG who have seemed to like it (although summer associate rose glasses on).

Seems like Pittsburgh has a pretty insulated market too where a lot of people know each other.

[1styearlateral]

I went to school in Pittsburgh so know the firms pretty well. At any of the top firms (RS, K&L, JD, ML, MW, BR, etc.), you're going to work a ton; Reed Smith was notoriously known as the "sweat shop" (they have/had a separate off-location warehouse where they store their doc review attorneys). I don't know what these firms pay nowadays (Lacepiece seems to have pretty up-to-date info), but if you are considering one of these firms I would probably only choose based on starting pay and pay scale. From my understanding, these firms (especially the Pittsburgh-based firms RS and K&L) are satellite firms now that mostly service their sister offices in major markets. If you are OK with that, go for it.

If you do not want to work major market hours in a secondary market, or want to get more local work, I would choose one of the "midlaw" firms, like Buchanan, Dentons (Cohen), Eckert Seamans, etc. While these firms do not pay market, they do pay pretty well and you are more likely to get solid local work and more responsibility up front. Partnership is also probably more attainable.

Then you have the smaller firms like Pietragallo, Meyer Unkovic, Steptoe, etc. that have decent local practices but are just average. You also have a laundry list of insurance defense firms to choose from that have offices in Pittsburgh.

Most people who get offers from RS/K&L/JD etc. are either top of their class at a Pittsburgh law school or grew up in Pittsburgh (i.e., have roots) and go to a top ranked school elsewhere.

[Anonymous User]

I grew up in Pittsburgh and went to a T-14. I interviewed at JD, RS, and K&L. Back when I interviewed in 2015 K&L was coming off a summer where they did not give 100% return offers, so I was wary of K&L. The hiring partner at JD assumed I would be a litigator (which was not my interest). My takeaway there is JD's Pittsburgh office is litigation heavy. RS was my favorite of the firms, I clicked well with everyone at my interview. Yes, RS is a sweatshop but big law is big law, even in Pittsburgh. You can't beat the cost of living in Pittsburgh. I think even with lower salaries working big law in Pittsburgh is a power move to pay off loans quickly.

[Lacepiece23]

Idk if I would characterize RS as a sweat shop. I billed between 2,000 and 2,100 there and was seen as above the pack for my first two years. I transferred to Philly and never made hours. It was all good.

The thing that is hard is not having doc review for your first two years. I had to scrounge for research assignments and I feel like I worked more due to not being on case teams. But that was also the nature of my commercial lit practice group.

RS is a really good option if you’re in a practice group from day 1. I also really liked the people there. Over 60 people wished me goodbye via email when I made the decision to leave and start my own firm.

Only 20 people wished me goodbye in Philly and I was currently working in that office. I’d def recommend RS. And I think it’s probably the top choice in the market.

There’s so many ex RS people out there. The firm used to take in NYC sized classes back in the day (not that long ago). It just has the brand recognitions and a lot of alumni for exit options in Pgh.

But there’s certainly reasons for picking other firms and I have had friends leave and report being happier elsewhere. I also have a ton of friends there about to make partner FWIW.

Edit: the current managing partner is one of the best people I know and one of the best lawyers I’ll ever meet.

[Creed bratton esq]

I went to school in Pittsburgh so know the firms pretty well. At any of the top firms (RS, K&L, JD, ML, MW, BR, etc.), you're going to work a ton; Reed Smith was notoriously known as the "sweat shop" (they have/had a separate off-location warehouse where they store their doc review attorneys). I don't know what these firms pay nowadays (Lacepiece seems to have pretty up-to-date info), but if you are considering one of these firms I would probably only choose based on starting pay and pay scale. From my understanding, these firms (especially the Pittsburgh-based firms RS and K&L) are satellite firms now that mostly service their sister offices in major markets. If you are OK with that, go for it.

If you do not want to work major market hours in a secondary market, or want to get more local work, I would choose one of the "midlaw" firms, like Buchanan, Dentons (Cohen), Eckert Seamans, etc. While these firms do not pay market, they do pay pretty well and you are more likely to get solid local work and more responsibility up front. Partnership is also probably more attainable.

Then you have the smaller firms like Pietragallo, Meyer Unkovic, Steptoe, etc. that have decent local practices but are just average. You also have a laundry list of insurance defense firms to choose from that have offices in Pittsburgh.

Most people who get offers from RS/K&L/JD etc. are either top of their class at a Pittsburgh law school or grew up in Pittsburgh (i.e., have roots) and go to a top ranked school elsewhere.

Thank you for the insight and advice - very helpful!

[Creed bratton esq]

I grew up in Pittsburgh and went to a T-14. I interviewed at JD, RS, and K&L. Back when I interviewed in 2015 K&L was coming off a summer where they did not give 100% return offers, so I was wary of K&L. The hiring partner at JD assumed I would be a litigator (which was not my interest). My takeaway there is JD's Pittsburgh office is litigation heavy. RS was my favorite of the firms, I clicked well with everyone at my interview. Yes, RS is a sweatshop but big law is big law, even in Pittsburgh. You can't beat the cost of living in Pittsburgh. I think even with lower salaries working big law in Pittsburgh is a power move to pay off loans quickly.

Totally agreed on the COL of Pittsburgh benefits. Crazy how some firms there pay market considering the low COL. The winters do suck though lol

Are you still with RS? Would you make the same decision today?

[Anonymous User]

MW moved to paying all offices the same earlier this year, but has yet to officially move to 205. Speculation is that they will probably raise to 205 in '22

[Anonymous User]

Any data points on bonuses in Pgh? I’m at a firm that doesn’t pay bonuses (you can guess which one), and am curious whether bonuses are deflated/individualized.

OP, to second a few of the other posters, big law is big law, and you can expect to bill at least 2k at most of the large shops, and it’s not uncommon for folks to hit over 2500 or more—much like large NYC corporate shops.

That said, with the new raises across the board, plus the low cost of living, it’s a heck of a deal as far as big law goes.

[Creed bratton esq]

Any data points on bonuses in Pgh? I’m at a firm that doesn’t pay bonuses (you can guess which one), and am curious whether bonuses are deflated/individualized.

OP, to second a few of the other posters, big law is big law, and you can expect to bill at least 2k at most of the large shops, and it’s not uncommon for folks to hit over 2500 or more—much like large NYC corporate shops.

That said, with the new raises across the board, plus the low cost of living, it’s a heck of a deal as far as big law goes.

Thanks for sharing. Mind sharing how long you’ve been at this *bonus-less* firm? What’s the culture like, especially among associates? Given the black box/lack of bonuses are a lot of people looking to lateral or stick it for the long haul?

[Anonymous User]

Any data points on bonuses in Pgh? I’m at a firm that doesn’t pay bonuses (you can guess which one), and am curious whether bonuses are deflated/individualized.

OP, to second a few of the other posters, big law is big law, and you can expect to bill at least 2k at most of the large shops, and it’s not uncommon for folks to hit over 2500 or more—much like large NYC corporate shops.

That said, with the new raises across the board, plus the low cost of living, it’s a heck of a deal as far as big law goes.

Thanks for sharing. Mind sharing how long you’ve been at this *bonus-less* firm? What’s the culture like, especially among associates? Given the black box/lack of bonuses are a lot of people looking to lateral or stick it for the long haul?

Great culture IMO, and not at all deeply “conservative” as someone upthread mentioned, presumably as a pejorative. I mean it’s biglaw, so normal attrition, though people just got huge raises, so that may change things for a bit.

FWIW we’ve gotten a ton of partner and associate laterals from RS and KL, and very, very few the other direction. If you have a choice between the three, you can’t really go wrong with JD or RS. I’ve heard only bad things about KL.

[Creed bratton esq]

Any data points on bonuses in Pgh? I’m at a firm that doesn’t pay bonuses (you can guess which one), and am curious whether bonuses are deflated/individualized.

OP, to second a few of the other posters, big law is big law, and you can expect to bill at least 2k at most of the large shops, and it’s not uncommon for folks to hit over 2500 or more—much like large NYC corporate shops.

That said, with the new raises across the board, plus the low cost of living, it’s a heck of a deal as far as big law goes.

Thanks for sharing. Mind sharing how long you’ve been at this *bonus-less* firm? What’s the culture like, especially among associates? Given the black box/lack of bonuses are a lot of people looking to lateral or stick it for the long haul?

Great culture IMO, and not at all deeply “conservative” as someone upthread mentioned, presumably as a pejorative. I mean it’s biglaw, so normal attrition, though people just got huge raises, so that may change things for a bit.

FWIW we’ve gotten a ton of partner and associate laterals from RS and KL, and very, very few the other direction. If you have a choice between the three, you can’t really go wrong with JD or RS. I’ve heard only bad things about KL.

Good to know, thanks for sharing!

[Anonymous User]

I grew up in Pittsburgh and went to a T-14. I interviewed at JD, RS, and K&L. Back when I interviewed in 2015 K&L was coming off a summer where they did not give 100% return offers, so I was wary of K&L. The hiring partner at JD assumed I would be a litigator (which was not my interest). My takeaway there is JD's Pittsburgh office is litigation heavy. RS was my favorite of the firms, I clicked well with everyone at my interview. Yes, RS is a sweatshop but big law is big law, even in Pittsburgh. You can't beat the cost of living in Pittsburgh. I think even with lower salaries working big law in Pittsburgh is a power move to pay off loans quickly.

OP from above replying. I liked RS the most but ultimately did not return to Pittsburgh. My husband and I are both from Pittsburgh so I interviewed at Pittsburgh firms and we weighted our options. Pittsburgh lost out due to my husband's career and my dysfunctional family. I worked in big law for three years in Boston and now am working for the government. Thank god the Patriots have declined. Go Steelers.