How do I choose: Skadden vs. DPW vs. LW vs. Cleary vs. STB Forum

[Anonymous User]

I can already see myself getting shit on in the comments for some reason that I can't yet foresee, but I got really lucky and have good firm options to choose between (see title). I just don't know how to make a decision. I have read through endless forums on here and talked to endless associates, but I keep getting stuck.

I'm undecided between lit & corp but leaning corp (isn't everyone these days?). I want to keep the lit door open though. Within lit, I'm interested in government investigations / white collar. Within corp, I'm interested in M&A / cap markets. I want somewhere with flexibility, at least for the summer, and maybe beyond that.

Latham seems like a good choice for flexibility (18 undecided months!?!), but I worry that the culture is too social for someone as introverted as myself.

I really like STB & DPW's centralized staffing model. Some of the partners and associates I have spoken with have talked about how it's good for promoting diversity & equity. I am a POC and have worked in "entrepreneurial" offices before where white bosses "click" with white associates and give them all the good work assignments. Not sure if it's true, but it feels like a possible way to rule out places with open market systems.

I know they're all good firms & I should go with my "gut", but I don't feel like I have a gut sense here. I find it easy to like people & enjoyed everyone I met with at every firm for different reasons.

Other relevant details: I'm down to work hard and work long hours, but I want to like the people I work with & not get yelled at or publicly humiliated. I don't want to constantly fear being fired, if possible. I don't need to make partner, but I'd rather not totally burn out after a year.

Appreciate any thoughts, thanks!

[Anonymous User]

There won't be a Cinderella moment for you, sorry. They're all good firms and there won't be some singular moment / fact that makes it obvious. You'll have to make the decision, it will likely be on something pretty arbitrary. That said,

• As far as culture goes, Skadden/Latham are on one extreme (social) and DPW/STB are on another (formal). No sense about Cleary.
• If I was committed to white collar, I would do Skadden or DPW. But white collar is competitive at both places.
• I don't know about Latham's 18 months, but 1.) I don't know of any firm where you can float between corporate and litigation after your summer (but you can choose between both over the summer) and 2.) you'll know whether you love or hate obsessing over Westlaw pretty quickly.
• re: yellers, that depends more on the partners and seniors on particular deals than on the firm writ-large.

[Anonymous User]

Latham transactional midlevel here. IMO the reputation that Latham has for being fratty or extroverted is a little overblown. I’m also extremely introverted and have been doing fine, socially and work-wise. Just like in any sufficiently large organizations, you’ll find yourself gravitating to the right group and circle of friends that fit you.

[Anonymous User]

There won't be a Cinderella moment for you, sorry. They're all good firms and there won't be some singular moment / fact that makes it obvious. You'll have to make the decision, it will likely be on something pretty arbitrary. That said,

• As far as culture goes, Skadden/Latham are on one extreme (social) and DPW/STB are on another (formal). No sense about Cleary.
• If I was committed to white collar, I would do Skadden or DPW. But white collar is competitive at both places.
• I don't know about Latham's 18 months, but 1.) I don't know of any firm where you can float between corporate and litigation after your summer (but you can choose between both over the summer) and 2.) you'll know whether you love or hate obsessing over Westlaw pretty quickly.
• re: yellers, that depends more on the partners and seniors on particular deals than on the firm writ-large.

Latham's unassigned program is truly unassigned - you can float between litigation and transactional, at least at the New York office, for 18 months. You don't have to pick till 18 months is over.

[Anonymous User]

There won't be a Cinderella moment for you, sorry. They're all good firms and there won't be some singular moment / fact that makes it obvious. You'll have to make the decision, it will likely be on something pretty arbitrary. That said,

• As far as culture goes, Skadden/Latham are on one extreme (social) and DPW/STB are on another (formal). No sense about Cleary.
• If I was committed to white collar, I would do Skadden or DPW. But white collar is competitive at both places.
• I don't know about Latham's 18 months, but 1.) I don't know of any firm where you can float between corporate and litigation after your summer (but you can choose between both over the summer) and 2.) you'll know whether you love or hate obsessing over Westlaw pretty quickly.
• re: yellers, that depends more on the partners and seniors on particular deals than on the firm writ-large.

Latham's unassigned program is truly unassigned - you can float between litigation and transactional, at least at the New York office, for 18 months. You don't have to pick till 18 months is over.

OP here, should have also mentioned all in NY! But anyway - I didn't realize Skadden was so social! Glad to have been advised. Also, I hope that I figure out whether I prefer corp or lit quickly. My sense from interviews was that they all have flexibility over the summer so glad to have that confirmed.

Re: Latham - are folks who stay undecided between corp and lit for a year at a disadvantage for having not decided? Is it truly open in that sense?

[Anonymous User]

Latham junior here. The unassigned program is truly completely open and there are several unassigned associates working on litigation and corporate matters at the same time even. I don’t think there’s any disadvantage from exploring different groups as an unassigned associate although many senior associates will begin to try to recruit you into their group if they like you and your work product/ethic.

[iluvlawschool]

I made a very similar decision between these firms and am generally very happy with my choice. Feel free to PM me

[Anonymous User]

I previously worked at one of these firms and I would recommend DPW/STB/Cleary, in that order, though any is defensible for the right reasons. Those are the most school snobby and best regarded of the five. Skadden would be next. Latham last.

[Anonymous User]

I previously worked at one of these firms and I would recommend DPW/STB/Cleary, in that order, though any is defensible for the right reasons. Those are the most school snobby and best regarded of the five. Skadden would be next. Latham last.

picking a firm by how school snobby they are ... LOL

[Anonymous User]

Those are the most school snobby and best regarded of the five.

Gotta love TLS. Only here do we celebrate crushing the meritocracy in favor of the old boys' club.

I'll take the top 5% from some T20 over the above-median mediocrities at my T6 (and God knows there's a ton of them) any day of the week.

[onmars]

I made a very similar decision between these firms and am generally very happy with my choice. Feel free to PM me

OP here - apparently my account is too new to initiate a PM. Not sure if it works the other way, but would love to hear more, so if you can PM me, please do!

[uncle_rico]

The love that Cleary still gets on TLS is one of my favorite memes. I'm sure the same crowd has great things to say about Shearman and how it is a staple in the NY legal community

[Anonymous User]

Those are the most school snobby and best regarded of the five.

Gotta love TLS. Only here do we celebrate crushing the meritocracy in favor of the old boys' club.

I'll take the top 5% from some T20 over the above-median mediocrities at my T6 (and God knows there's a ton of them) any day of the week.

TBF I am top 5% at a T20 and received offers to 2/3 of the "school snobby" firms listed so not only is he elitst, he's wrong lmao

[Anonymous User]

I can already see myself getting shit on in the comments for some reason that I can't yet foresee, but I got really lucky and have good firm options to choose between (see title). I just don't know how to make a decision. I have read through endless forums on here and talked to endless associates, but I keep getting stuck.

I'm undecided between lit & corp but leaning corp (isn't everyone these days?). I want to keep the lit door open though. Within lit, I'm interested in government investigations / white collar. Within corp, I'm interested in M&A / cap markets. I want somewhere with flexibility, at least for the summer, and maybe beyond that.

Latham seems like a good choice for flexibility (18 undecided months!?!), but I worry that the culture is too social for someone as introverted as myself.

I really like STB & DPW's centralized staffing model. Some of the partners and associates I have spoken with have talked about how it's good for promoting diversity & equity. I am a POC and have worked in "entrepreneurial" offices before where white bosses "click" with white associates and give them all the good work assignments. Not sure if it's true, but it feels like a possible way to rule out places with open market systems.

I know they're all good firms & I should go with my "gut", but I don't feel like I have a gut sense here. I find it easy to like people & enjoyed everyone I met with at every firm for different reasons.

Other relevant details: I'm down to work hard and work long hours, but I want to like the people I work with & not get yelled at or publicly humiliated. I don't want to constantly fear being fired, if possible. I don't need to make partner, but I'd rather not totally burn out after a year.

Appreciate any thoughts, thanks!

Full disclosure - I'm a LW associate, but this is my honest opinion without bias.

Based on your post - it looks like you don't really know what you want to practice. You're also not likely to figure it out in one Summer or even 6 months given how broad your preferences are. For this reason alone, I'd suggest Latham so you can explore and figure it out. Most attorneys I know are unhappy for 2 reasons (1) long hours and (2) they're practicing in an area of law where they have no interest in the work.

You can't avoid (1), but you can avoid (2). Firms with "rotational summer programs" are in my opinion - complete BS. You only get 10 weeks in a summer - there's no way you meaningfully assess whether you prefer M&A vs. litigation vs. cap markets in 10 weeks. Firms like Skadden with full rotational programs for first years also won't work for you - they won't allow you to split between litigation and corporate. So, you'll have to give up on one or the other from the start. Also, I know plenty of people at Skadden who did not get their first choice of practice group. I've heard of maybe a handful of people that that happened to at LW.

You're unlikely to get yelled at or publicly humiliated at any of these firms. That whole screamer partner thing is a relic of the past if it ever was real. I've heard of it happening at other firms, but even then it seems really out of the ordinary/egregious. Long hours and burnout is unavoidable - just gotta find a way to recharge when you can.

[Anonymous User]

I vote DPW.

[Anonymous User]

Those are the most school snobby and best regarded of the five.

Gotta love TLS. Only here do we celebrate crushing the meritocracy in favor of the old boys' club.

I'll take the top 5% from some T20 over the above-median mediocrities at my T6 (and God knows there's a ton of them) any day of the week.

TBF I am top 5% at a T20 and received offers to 2/3 of the "school snobby" firms listed so not only is he elitst, he's wrong lmao

Yea this guy is completely wrong. I was just in the top 20% at a lower T14 and had offers at all of these but one, as well as CSM. The idea that these firms are exclusively recruiting from the top students at T6 schools is not only wrong but laughable at this point and only made by out of touch elitists who have no other accomplishments after getting into law school

[Anonymous User]

The only one of these firms that is truly “school snobby” is Cleary. Something like 95% of their recent summer class (NY) came from T14 schools. IMO, the other firms here would prefer the top 5% T50 candidate to the median T14 student.

OP, based on your short description, I think DPW or STB would be a good fit.

[Anonymous User]

The love that Cleary still gets on TLS is one of my favorite memes. I'm sure the same crowd has great things to say about Shearman and how it is a staple in the NY legal community

I don't think people treat Cleary more or less than it deserves. People recognize it's not where it was a decade ago, but it's still a solid firm shy of STB, DPW, et al. Shearman, on the other hand, took a hard hit during the financial crisis, and it's noticeably outside the league of where it was.

[Anonymous User]

The only one of these firms that is truly “school snobby” is Cleary. Something like 95% of their recent summer class (NY) came from T14 schools.

I actually loved my Cleary interviewers, but it does strike me as odd that they are so school snobby when nothing about the firm as it exists now would justify that level of snobbiness compared to peer firms.

[Anonymous User]

DPW / STB
Cleary / Skadden
Latham

OP, that’s how the firms are viewed in NYC, so if I were you I’d choose DPW or STB unless you really, really connected with Cleary or Skadden in some unusual way.

Personally not sure I could justify choosing Latham over the others in virtually any situation.

[Anonymous User]

Reports of Cleary's death have been greatly exaggerated around here.

Look at league tables, chambers, etc. and it still hangs with the pack of NY white shoes that are not quite WLRK/CSM/S&C (and there are a handful of folks every year who have offers at the latter two who turn them down for Cleary). Like some of the other old school shops, there are still plenty of partners who take pride in training associates rather than relying on hordes of warm lateral bodies (I think the same could be said for DPW and STB). I was receiving recruiting emails for Latham and a large Chicago firm in my first year at Cleary and continue to get them regularly. These places do their fair share of mega deals but they are just run on a different business model that isn't necessarily to the associate's benefit (maybe unless you know you're going to bill 2300+ every year). Of course all of these places will squeeze you very hard, just a matter of how you can best tolerate being squeezed.

I'm also skeptical that Cleary is extra school snobby relative to similar NYC places, where Harvard/Columbia/NYU tend to dominate. Every class has a good handful of top students from non-T14s (especially the local schools), and the lawyers from these schools do their part to advocate for a few more every year.

/anon because butthurt Cleary associate

[Anonymous User]

Reports of Cleary's death have been greatly exaggerated around here.

Look at league tables, chambers, etc. and it still hangs with the pack of NY white shoes that are not quite WLRK/CSM/S&C (and there are a handful of folks every year who have offers at the latter two who turn them down for Cleary). Like some of the other old school shops, there are still plenty of partners who take pride in training associates rather than relying on hordes of warm lateral bodies (I think the same could be said for DPW and STB). I was receiving recruiting emails for Latham and a large Chicago firm in my first year at Cleary and continue to get them regularly. These places do their fair share of mega deals but they are just run on a different business model that isn't necessarily to the associate's benefit (maybe unless you know you're going to bill 2300+ every year). Of course all of these places will squeeze you very hard, just a matter of how you can best tolerate being squeezed.

I'm also skeptical that Cleary is extra school snobby relative to similar NYC places, where Harvard/Columbia/NYU tend to dominate. Every class has a good handful of top students from non-T14s (especially the local schools), and the lawyers from these schools do their part to advocate for a few more every year.

/anon because butthurt Cleary associate

"a large Chicago firm"

[onmars]

DPW / STB
Cleary / Skadden
Latham

Is this ordering universally known / regarded as true? I don't know any lawyers in real life, so all I have are Vault, Chambers, and what I hear classmates say. I'm surprised that DPW & STB are above Skadden.

[Anonymous User]

DPW / STB
Cleary / Skadden
Latham

Is this ordering universally known / regarded as true? I don't know any lawyers in real life, so all I have are Vault, Chambers, and what I hear classmates say. I'm surprised that DPW & STB are above Skadden.

Yea maybe 15 years ago this was true, but Skadden's definitely in the same tier now.

[Anonymous User]

DPW / STB
Cleary / Skadden
Latham

Is this ordering universally known / regarded as true? I don't know any lawyers in real life, so all I have are Vault, Chambers, and what I hear classmates say. I'm surprised that DPW & STB are above Skadden.

No this order is not true (although the old school hive mind at TLS will have you believe otherwise)—and a quick look at both Vault and Chambers, along with practicing experience will tell you otherwise.

At this point it’s really the following in NY:

DPW / STB / Skadden
Latham / Cleary

I would even want to put Cleary below Latham (look at all recent league tables and Chambers) but to avoid a collective shitstorm I think they’re close enough to be on the same tier.