How many hours below the required target before you get fired or firm takes some action? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Firm does not want to give me my class year raise (but still advance me) because I am about 200 hours short (on an annualized basis halfway through the year) as a result of a personal family matter that required time and attention earlier in the year and getting sick (not covid). I didn't take FMLA leave during the family stuff because my group was desperately busy and still is, so they told me to just slow down big time and encouraged me to do only 1-2 deals rather than 5-6 and they knew about the family stuff and told me to take the time.

As a result, my hours expectancy was not pro rated and my firm just adopted a compensation system that will drop you into a lower tier of pay if you don't hit hours the prior year. The pay difference between me and my classmates next year will be $25,000! I am mad and I also feel like an idiot for not taking the FMLA leave.

I pushed back on the firm (and mind you I have excellent reviews and great relationships with partners) and the firm basically told me I am actually lucky because if I was at any other firm, I would have been fired. They cited Polsinelli and some other firm that apparently fire associates if they miss the required hours.

Wondering what the real "oh shit" shortfall number is before a firm would take adverse action (in a normal year where associates don't have crazy leverage like we do now)?

*corrected dollar amount difference

[Anonymous User]

The class year part is surprising to me, I would have expected you to just not get your bonus when the time came.

[Anonymous User]

The suggestion that Polsinelli fires associates that don’t meet their hours is materially false.

[The Lsat Airbender]

This depends entirely on 1) overall hiring-market conditions and 2) whether people like you.

I.e., if they wanted to fire you anyway, then missing hours is a great way to accelerate that process. If they can't afford to lose you, then it's nbd.

I would consider lateralling. That pay structure sounds suspect.

[Buglaw]

Firm does not want to give me my class year raise (but still advance me) because I am about 200 hours short (on an annualized basis halfway through the year) as a result of a personal family matter that required time and attention earlier in the year and getting sick (not covid). I didn't take FMLA leave during the family stuff because my group was desperately busy and still is, so they told me to just slow down big time and encouraged me to do only 1-2 deals rather than 5-6 and they knew about the family stuff and told me to take the time.

As a result, my hours expectancy was not pro rated and my firm just adopted a compensation system that will drop you into a lower tier of pay if you don't hit hours the prior year. The pay difference between me and my classmates next year will be $37,000! I am mad and I also feel like an idiot for not taking the FMLA leave.

I pushed back on the firm (and mind you I have excellent reviews and great relationships with partners) and the firm basically told me I am actually lucky because if I was at any other firm, I would have been fired. They cited Polsinelli and some other firm that apparently fire associates if they miss the required hours.

Wondering what the real "oh shit" shortfall number is before a firm would take adverse action (in a normal year where associates don't have crazy leverage like we do now)?

This sounds like bullshit. I know tons of associates who have missed hours and didn't get fired. Your reasons are totally understandable. Your are also only halfway though thr year and this is infinitely easy to make up in half a year. So they are telling you if you come in at hours (or just shy) because you had some family issues for part of the year that you agreed to work through, they won't advance you and you are lucky to keep your job? That's bullshit, and I'd go to the partners you work closely with and have good relationships with and tell them you aren't happy. They should be able to fix this.

[Anonymous User]

I talked to partners and everyone says that they'll "take care of it" when it comes to discretionary bonus next year.. but I know it's not going to make up $25k.. it can't since the pool for those bonuses is so so small. I know of a superstar associate whose discretionary bonus was $15k.

This is pushing me out the door and makes me want to lateral. I'm a corporate associate and know that I can get an offer elsewhere that pays great, but that comment about people being fired if you miss hours made me hesitant about going elsewhere.

I don't foresee any problems with hitting a 1900+ billable requirement at all, but I'm worried about if corporate work slows down or something if I would truly be on the chopping block if I didn't hit the target.

[Wubbles]

They're lying to you about practices elsewhere in order to pay you less. I would bounce while the market is hot.

[Definitely Not North]

You should lateral immediately.

[Buglaw]

I'm not sure if they are lying or don't know better. I've had partners tell me every associate at x firm is billing at least 2500 hours a year. I honestly think some of them believe it, because everyone thinks they are a great boss an emminently fair.

Either way, their position is stupid and obviously not true. People miss hours all the time and don't get fired or held back.

[hdr]

Literally no one gets fired for billing 1800 hours instead of 2000. I would call anything under 1700 the danger zone, but I've seen plenty of associates survive years with as low as 1200 hours. The partners are flat-out lying and they know it.

At many firms, the only consequence for not meeting your hours is not getting a bonus. If a firm docks your pay or denies you a raise you should find somewhere else to work. Especially in corporate where practically anyone can get a V10 counsel title these days.

[Anonymous User]

Firm does not want to give me my class year raise (but still advance me) because I am about 200 hours short (on an annualized basis halfway through the year) as a result of a personal family matter that required time and attention earlier in the year and getting sick (not covid). I didn't take FMLA leave during the family stuff because my group was desperately busy and still is, so they told me to just slow down big time and encouraged me to do only 1-2 deals rather than 5-6 and they knew about the family stuff and told me to take the time.

As a result, my hours expectancy was not pro rated and my firm just adopted a compensation system that will drop you into a lower tier of pay if you don't hit hours the prior year. The pay difference between me and my classmates next year will be $25,000! I am mad and I also feel like an idiot for not taking the FMLA leave.

I pushed back on the firm (and mind you I have excellent reviews and great relationships with partners) and the firm basically told me I am actually lucky because if I was at any other firm, I would have been fired. They cited Polsinelli and some other firm that apparently fire associates if they miss the required hours.

Wondering what the real "oh shit" shortfall number is before a firm would take adverse action (in a normal year where associates don't have crazy leverage like we do now)?

*corrected dollar amount difference

Never heard of this and would not fly at my firm. Lateral - the market is too hot to be treated like this.

[DiligentSage]

Midlevel corporate associates in practically any flavor of corporate group are currently indispensable. Lateral, collect a signing bonus and get out of there.

[Anonymous User]

I billed 1100 one year. The firm said no bonus because of it. I was finally given the talk SEVEN months into the next year since I was only on pace for 800 hours. Practice group was slow as hell and even then they waited a while to kick me to the curb.

[Buglaw]

I talked to partners and everyone says that they'll "take care of it" when it comes to discretionary bonus next year.. but I know it's not going to make up $25k.. it can't since the pool for those bonuses is so so small. I know of a superstar associate whose discretionary bonus was $15k.

This is pushing me out the door and makes me want to lateral. I'm a corporate associate and know that I can get an offer elsewhere that pays great, but that comment about people being fired if you miss hours made me hesitant about going elsewhere.

I don't foresee any problems with hitting a 1900+ billable requirement at all, but I'm worried about if corporate work slows down or something if I would truly be on the chopping block if I didn't hit the target.

The fact that the partners you work for didn't immediately fix this is, I think, very concerning. I've seen firms do stupid stuff before or exercise bad judgment, but the partners people worked with were always able to fix it. The fact that the partners wouldn't, or couldn't, fix a clearly poor decision, means they probably aren't partners you want to be working for. How will they get you pushed through for partnership? If you don't want partner, will they help you with an exit? Hard to say yes with confidence if they can't keep you at your class year and keep people from threatening you with termination for totally understandable hours shortfall.

Also, "making it up" in discretionary bonus is not a fix. You are still held back a class year. A fix would be reversing their position and saying they didn't understand the situation.

[Anonymous User]

Firm does not want to give me my class year raise (but still advance me) because I am about 200 hours short (on an annualized basis halfway through the year) as a result of a personal family matter that required time and attention earlier in the year and getting sick (not covid). I didn't take FMLA leave during the family stuff because my group was desperately busy and still is, so they told me to just slow down big time and encouraged me to do only 1-2 deals rather than 5-6 and they knew about the family stuff and told me to take the time.

As a result, my hours expectancy was not pro rated and my firm just adopted a compensation system that will drop you into a lower tier of pay if you don't hit hours the prior year. The pay difference between me and my classmates next year will be $25,000! I am mad and I also feel like an idiot for not taking the FMLA leave.

I pushed back on the firm (and mind you I have excellent reviews and great relationships with partners) and the firm basically told me I am actually lucky because if I was at any other firm, I would have been fired. They cited Polsinelli and some other firm that apparently fire associates if they miss the required hours.

Wondering what the real "oh shit" shortfall number is before a firm would take adverse action (in a normal year where associates don't have crazy leverage like we do now)?

*corrected dollar amount difference

When you leave this shit of a firm - please name and shame them, so we know not to lateral there.

[DukeMountain]

Bug law had the right opinion above. The people in charge either are your partners and don’t give a shit about you, or don’t have any juice and you’ll just get screwed (more) eventually.

Leave.

[Anonymous User]

Corporate midlevel in kind of the same situation here. I had burnout and set some boundaries and turned down some work in order to survive and not rage quit. My practice has had EXTREME peaks and valleys so it was a painful way to bill an average year. Then firm announced that instead of doing across the board market raises, they would give full raises to people who were at or above the target and everyone else would get a different salary scale which is pretty much just $20,000 less than the higher counterpart.

I will be within 100 hours of the target so no full raise and no bonus, which bonus part was a given known. I understand the argument that the firm shouldn't have to pay associates if they didn't hit the minimum requirement, but this just feels so punitive and short sighted.

[Mullens]

Corporate midlevel in kind of the same situation here. I had burnout and set some boundaries and turned down some work in order to survive and not rage quit. My practice has had EXTREME peaks and valleys so it was a painful way to bill an average year. Then firm announced that instead of doing across the board market raises, they would give full raises to people who were at or above the target and everyone else would get a different salary scale which is pretty much just $20,000 less than the higher counterpart.

I will be within 100 hours of the target so no full raise and no bonus, which bonus part was a given known. I understand the argument that the firm shouldn't have to pay associates if they didn't hit the minimum requirement, but this just feels so punitive and short sighted.

You should also lateral. You don’t owe this firm anything and they’re treating you like shit so why would you stay? You can probably get a lateral bonus and work somewhere that isn’t so cheap.

[Anonymous User]

Corporate midlevel in kind of the same situation here. I had burnout and set some boundaries and turned down some work in order to survive and not rage quit. My practice has had EXTREME peaks and valleys so it was a painful way to bill an average year. Then firm announced that instead of doing across the board market raises, they would give full raises to people who were at or above the target and everyone else would get a different salary scale which is pretty much just $20,000 less than the higher counterpart.

I will be within 100 hours of the target so no full raise and no bonus, which bonus part was a given known. I understand the argument that the firm shouldn't have to pay associates if they didn't hit the minimum requirement, but this just feels so punitive and short sighted.

You should also lateral. You don’t owe this firm anything and they’re treating you like shit so why would you stay? You can probably get a lateral bonus and work somewhere that isn’t so cheap.

What's tough for me is that I love my coworkers and even my partners (but they don't have enough sway to just upend the new comp model). Do I give up a team that I enjoy to risk going to a shitty group? Am I really overestimating how mean people are in big law versus like a midlaw firm (again relying on what some V5 law school friends and partners here have told me)?

[Anonymous User]

PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR "- 1 hour = suspended (with contingent termination on the way) or fired" ON THE POLL...

WHICH FIRMS DO YOU WORK AT?

[nixy]

PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR "- 1 hour = suspended (with contingent termination on the way) or fired" ON THE POLL...

WHICH FIRMS DO YOU WORK AT?

(They’re trolling.)

[Winter is Coming]

"They cited Polsinelli and some other firm that apparently fire associates if they miss the required hours."

This is the most bizarre part of this: name dropping another firm here. Not sure if Posinelli is like the leader in your market but this seems incredibly odd.

[Buglaw]

"They cited Polsinelli and some other firm that apparently fire associates if they miss the required hours."

This is the most bizarre part of this: name dropping another firm here. Not sure if Posinelli is like the leader in your market but this seems incredibly odd.

I assume it's a peer to their firm. I think he was throwing it out here to see if it's true (which other people have responded it's not). Agree it's a bit weird. Normally I have seen partners pick Kirkland and say these outrageous things that are demonstrably false (i.e. everyone at Kirkland bills 2600 hours a year, etc.).

[Anonymous User]

Corporate midlevel in kind of the same situation here. I had burnout and set some boundaries and turned down some work in order to survive and not rage quit. My practice has had EXTREME peaks and valleys so it was a painful way to bill an average year. Then firm announced that instead of doing across the board market raises, they would give full raises to people who were at or above the target and everyone else would get a different salary scale which is pretty much just $20,000 less than the higher counterpart.

I will be within 100 hours of the target so no full raise and no bonus, which bonus part was a given known. I understand the argument that the firm shouldn't have to pay associates if they didn't hit the minimum requirement, but this just feels so punitive and short sighted.

You should also lateral. You don’t owe this firm anything and they’re treating you like shit so why would you stay? You can probably get a lateral bonus and work somewhere that isn’t so cheap.

What's tough for me is that I love my coworkers and even my partners (but they don't have enough sway to just upend the new comp model). Do I give up a team that I enjoy to risk going to a shitty group? Am I really overestimating how mean people are in big law versus like a midlaw firm (again relying on what some V5 law school friends and partners here have told me)?

This a tough situation. I’ve learned the hard way that there can be some truly awful partners/associates, and who you work for is one of the most important parts of the job. But you can probably get a sense of their style from their personality. Good luck in your decision.

[Anonymous User]

I missed hours by about 300 during covid because I was a lazy POS at home when there was plenty of work to go around. I still got my class raise, and they gave me a 5k bonus to pay for christmas presents. My peers think I should've been outraged because it was COVID, but I truly have nobody to blame but myself. I slept, played video games, missed deadlines, and more.

Apparently some partners went to bat for me at performance discussions.