Am I not talented enough to make partner? Forum

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LBJ's Hair

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Re: Am I not talented enough to make partner?

Post by LBJ's Hair » Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:44 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:15 pm
Mr. Kister wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:02 pm

This. I've come to realize that at least two senior associates I've worked for in M&A get the same type of energy and excitement from constantly doing deal work as I used to from gaming for the better part of a day. Sure, they get tired. But you'll push through exhaustion to do something you truly enjoy. It's not just work for them.
Yeah...well, I mean don't forget PEDs. No one talks about it, but nobody rocks Barry Bonds numbers without a bit of help.
you'd be surprised

sincerely,
every parent of young kids

uygiugiyugyugk

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Re: Am I not talented enough to make partner?

Post by uygiugiyugyugk » Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:53 pm

wake up at 2am, splash water on your face, do a few pushups just to get the blood flowing, and start responding to emails.

if you are sleeping more than 2.5-3hours continuously as a junior, you are not partner material.

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Re: Am I not talented enough to make partner?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:54 am

uygiugiyugyugk wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:53 pm
wake up at 2am, splash water on your face, do a few pushups just to get the blood flowing, and start responding to emails.

if you are sleeping more than 2.5-3hours continuously as a junior, you are not partner material.
I know you’re kidding but I remember reading this NYT “day in the life” of a Cravath partner who… sleeps 4 hours a night right before I started. I am convinced that the only people who really make partner are those who can tolerate inhumanly low amounts of sleep for extended periods of time.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/21/nyre ... moore.html

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Re: Am I not talented enough to make partner?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:05 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:54 am
uygiugiyugyugk wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:53 pm
wake up at 2am, splash water on your face, do a few pushups just to get the blood flowing, and start responding to emails.

if you are sleeping more than 2.5-3hours continuously as a junior, you are not partner material.
I know you’re kidding but I remember reading this NYT “day in the life” of a Cravath partner who… sleeps 4 hours a night right before I started. I am convinced that the only people who really make partner are those who can tolerate inhumanly low amounts of sleep for extended periods of time.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/21/nyre ... moore.html
I had never seen this but Jesus her life sounds miserable.

A hotshot RX partner at KE supposedly wakes up for an hour at 2am every night to go through his emails from the prior day so he can look at them at a time when he doesn't have new ones piling up / make sure he didn't miss anything from the previous day.

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Re: Am I not talented enough to make partner?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:19 pm

“Can this person provide more profit for the firm than they cost (including the cost of needing the help of other partners or the creation of personal drama), both now and for the foreseeable future, such that the partnership as a whole is enriched by adding them?”

That’s the real question at the heart of all this, and everything else mentioned are individual metrics that add up to an answer to that question. You might also add the supplemental “even if the answer is yes, can we derive the same profits out of this person while paying them less by keeping them at an associate/counsel role without losing them?”

We are all just cost-benefit calculations in an excel spreadsheet somewhere, even if the variables of the equation are measured in millions, and estimates need to be made for quantifying soft factors.

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Re:

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:19 pm

August 2021
Sleep "Hygiene":

I am not providing legal or medical advice and my comments are not in response to any particular inquiry. My pointers are for a general audience ..much like a "life coach" might provide.
=====================================
Countless professionals, not just JDs or Attorneys, brag about how little sleep they need. Don't listen to these "Oracles of Delphi". They are lying.

Stay with the science (the "data"). It's peer-reviewed and time tested:

(1) 7-8 hours of sleep.
(2) Go to sleep and wake up at the same time each night/morning.
(3) #2-applies to weekends.
(4) #2-it's virtually impossible to make up for sleep deficits.
(5) No exercise before sleep, no blue light (or any light for that matter), no caffeine or energy drinks after 4:00 PM, no food before sleep (or in the middle of the night), no liquids before sleep (particularly if you are all too rapidly aging).
(6) Black-Out curtains.
(7) White noise (does not work for all- experiment).
(8) Don't make your schedule for the next day right before you go to sleep (unless you prefer to worry and can sleep through anxiety and rumination). And if you ruminate, try to NEVER make the "perfect" the enemy of the "good".
(9) Afternoon naps (under your desk?)- works great for some/not much for others.
(10) Light meditation before sleep (or "prayers" if you have an exam or trial the next day).
(11) Room, pillow, and mattress temperature- experiment. Given Law School tuition, the price of the best mattress, pillow, and sheets seems a small price to pay.
(12) Carefully make your bed each morning so that you will not be tempted to crawl under your sheets for a few more winks (which can turn into hours). Military Special Forces have "bed-making specifications". See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRRxww6eDvc.
(13) Throw away all clocks you may have that have "snooze" buttons. Smart Phones are too expensive to throw away, so just disable the feature and keep it disabled.
(14) Be careful about RX sleeping aids- Ambien for example. Don't talk to your Primary. Talk to a Sleep Disorder doctor.
(15) If you have sleep apnea get to a sleep clinic/lab asap (unless you want to stop breathing midway through the night). ASSM [American Academia of Sleep Medicine] Accreditation is discussed at https://sleepeducation.org/sleep-center.
(16) Watch out for ADHD medications or Modafinal- the cure ("upper") might be worse than day-time fatigue or a tendency to overly procrastinate. And something everybody forgets: You will likely have to disclose the use of psychoactive drugs on your Fitness and Character Report. In turn, the Bar can hold up your admission for a considerable period of time (sometimes forever, or at least under months or years of strict supervision by a barred attorney and a mental health counselor). I wager that when you were selected by your top-notch Law School, the School never told you this. The ABA, and many State Bar Associations, pat themselves on their backs for their enlightened treatment of attorneys suffering from mental health issues. Congratulations are hardly in order. In many (all?) States, attorneys may be suspended or disbarred for Major Depressive Disorder or Bi-Polar Disorder (etc.). In re Bagwell 286 Ga. 511 (2010) [the attorney also offered evidence that he suffered with “Bi-Polar Disorder, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, major depressive disorder, and generalized anxiety disorder, and has undergone in-patient psychiatric evaluation.” Id. The court imposed a two-year suspension and conditioned reinstatement on certification of mental competence. It should be noted that Chief Justice Hunstein dissented, stating that “Based on Bagwell’s admitted conduct, I disagree that suspension is an appropriate discipline. Because I would disbar Bagwell, I respectfully dissent.” Id. at 512].

Note the anomaly: An attorney that suffers from depression is "mentally incompetent" until proven otherwise (and he/she has the burden of proof). And this, despite many reports that upwards of 28% of all trial attorneys will have major depressive disorder at some point in their careers.
(17) Apparently, in some cases bad sleep habits can be improved through cognitive behavioral therapy (CBD). Will you need to disclose such therapy on your Fitness and Character Report?
(18) No television or computer displays in the bedroom.
(19) Never study in bed and your bedroom should never be your study area (your "workstation").
(19) No Alcohol before bed. It's a stimulant.
(20) If you don’t fall asleep after 20 minutes, get out of bed. Go do a quiet activity without a lot of light exposure. If you stay in bed, tossing and turning, your anxiety will skyrocket because you will increasingly think you will never fall asleep. Chasing your own tail.
(21) A Melatonin supplement helps some- far from all.

Christine1952

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Re: Am I not talented enough to make partner?

Post by Christine1952 » Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:41 pm

August 28, 2021
Based on 40 years of Teaching, Practicing, and Tutoring:

In general, those who "work smart" have a better chance of becoming Shareholders or Partners than those who "work hard". While you may think that many of your colleagues are engaged in additional studies while you are using your "extra" time to relax, your colleagues are, in fact, honing their people skills and having lunch and often dinner, each day every day, with existing and potential clients.

The hard facts of Legal Life: If you were the head of a Firm would you hire an attorney that graduated number one at Harvard and clerked at the Supreme Court or an attorney that has a book of recurring business of millions of dollars each year.

And don't be so hard on yourself. Never make the "perfect" the enemy of the "good" and remember that Hillary Clinton failed the Washington DC Bar (though she did, eventually, pass the Arkansas Bar).

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Re: Am I not talented enough to make partner?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:31 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:54 am
uygiugiyugyugk wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:53 pm
wake up at 2am, splash water on your face, do a few pushups just to get the blood flowing, and start responding to emails.

if you are sleeping more than 2.5-3hours continuously as a junior, you are not partner material.
I know you’re kidding but I remember reading this NYT “day in the life” of a Cravath partner who… sleeps 4 hours a night right before I started. I am convinced that the only people who really make partner are those who can tolerate inhumanly low amounts of sleep for extended periods of time.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/21/nyre ... moore.html

Just read the article. This is so depressing. Sounds like a hostage situation lol. And this is Cravath, where she [presumably] doesn't have to go out and spend time actively bringing in new clients. Still only sleeping 4 hours as a partner...

Anonymous User
Posts: 431119
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Re:

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:53 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:19 pm
August 2021
Sleep "Hygiene":

I am not providing legal or medical advice and my comments are not in response to any particular inquiry. My pointers are for a general audience ..much like a "life coach" might provide.
=====================================
Countless professionals, not just JDs or Attorneys, brag about how little sleep they need. Don't listen to these "Oracles of Delphi". They are lying.

Stay with the science (the "data"). It's peer-reviewed and time tested:

(1) 7-8 hours of sleep.
(2) Go to sleep and wake up at the same time each night/morning.
(3) #2-applies to weekends.
(4) #2-it's virtually impossible to make up for sleep deficits.
(5) No exercise before sleep, no blue light (or any light for that matter), no caffeine or energy drinks after 4:00 PM, no food before sleep (or in the middle of the night), no liquids before sleep (particularly if you are all too rapidly aging).
(6) Black-Out curtains.
(7) White noise (does not work for all- experiment).
(8) Don't make your schedule for the next day right before you go to sleep (unless you prefer to worry and can sleep through anxiety and rumination). And if you ruminate, try to NEVER make the "perfect" the enemy of the "good".
(9) Afternoon naps (under your desk?)- works great for some/not much for others.
(10) Light meditation before sleep (or "prayers" if you have an exam or trial the next day).
(11) Room, pillow, and mattress temperature- experiment. Given Law School tuition, the price of the best mattress, pillow, and sheets seems a small price to pay.
(12) Carefully make your bed each morning so that you will not be tempted to crawl under your sheets for a few more winks (which can turn into hours). Military Special Forces have "bed-making specifications". See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRRxww6eDvc.
(13) Throw away all clocks you may have that have "snooze" buttons. Smart Phones are too expensive to throw away, so just disable the feature and keep it disabled.
(14) Be careful about RX sleeping aids- Ambien for example. Don't talk to your Primary. Talk to a Sleep Disorder doctor.
(15) If you have sleep apnea get to a sleep clinic/lab asap (unless you want to stop breathing midway through the night). ASSM [American Academia of Sleep Medicine] Accreditation is discussed at https://sleepeducation.org/sleep-center.
(16) Watch out for ADHD medications or Modafinal- the cure ("upper") might be worse than day-time fatigue or a tendency to overly procrastinate. And something everybody forgets: You will likely have to disclose the use of psychoactive drugs on your Fitness and Character Report. In turn, the Bar can hold up your admission for a considerable period of time (sometimes forever, or at least under months or years of strict supervision by a barred attorney and a mental health counselor). I wager that when you were selected by your top-notch Law School, the School never told you this. The ABA, and many State Bar Associations, pat themselves on their backs for their enlightened treatment of attorneys suffering from mental health issues. Congratulations are hardly in order. In many (all?) States, attorneys may be suspended or disbarred for Major Depressive Disorder or Bi-Polar Disorder (etc.). In re Bagwell 286 Ga. 511 (2010) [the attorney also offered evidence that he suffered with “Bi-Polar Disorder, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, major depressive disorder, and generalized anxiety disorder, and has undergone in-patient psychiatric evaluation.” Id. The court imposed a two-year suspension and conditioned reinstatement on certification of mental competence. It should be noted that Chief Justice Hunstein dissented, stating that “Based on Bagwell’s admitted conduct, I disagree that suspension is an appropriate discipline. Because I would disbar Bagwell, I respectfully dissent.” Id. at 512].

Note the anomaly: An attorney that suffers from depression is "mentally incompetent" until proven otherwise (and he/she has the burden of proof). And this, despite many reports that upwards of 28% of all trial attorneys will have major depressive disorder at some point in their careers.
(17) Apparently, in some cases bad sleep habits can be improved through cognitive behavioral therapy (CBD). Will you need to disclose such therapy on your Fitness and Character Report?
(18) No television or computer displays in the bedroom.
(19) Never study in bed and your bedroom should never be your study area (your "workstation").
(19) No Alcohol before bed. It's a stimulant.
(20) If you don’t fall asleep after 20 minutes, get out of bed. Go do a quiet activity without a lot of light exposure. If you stay in bed, tossing and turning, your anxiety will skyrocket because you will increasingly think you will never fall asleep. Chasing your own tail.
(21) A Melatonin supplement helps some- far from all.
Lmfao - might as well say "quit your job if you want to follow this sleep guide". I literally know no one in high-paying industries (doctors, lawyers, bankers etc.) that has a job that lets them comply with this.

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Anonymous User
Posts: 431119
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Re:

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:53 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:19 pm
August 2021
Sleep "Hygiene":

I am not providing legal or medical advice and my comments are not in response to any particular inquiry. My pointers are for a general audience ..much like a "life coach" might provide.
=====================================
Countless professionals, not just JDs or Attorneys, brag about how little sleep they need. Don't listen to these "Oracles of Delphi". They are lying.

Stay with the science (the "data"). It's peer-reviewed and time tested:

(1) 7-8 hours of sleep.
(2) Go to sleep and wake up at the same time each night/morning.
(3) #2-applies to weekends.
(4) #2-it's virtually impossible to make up for sleep deficits.
(5) No exercise before sleep, no blue light (or any light for that matter), no caffeine or energy drinks after 4:00 PM, no food before sleep (or in the middle of the night), no liquids before sleep (particularly if you are all too rapidly aging).
(6) Black-Out curtains.
(7) White noise (does not work for all- experiment).
(8) Don't make your schedule for the next day right before you go to sleep (unless you prefer to worry and can sleep through anxiety and rumination). And if you ruminate, try to NEVER make the "perfect" the enemy of the "good".
(9) Afternoon naps (under your desk?)- works great for some/not much for others.
(10) Light meditation before sleep (or "prayers" if you have an exam or trial the next day).
(11) Room, pillow, and mattress temperature- experiment. Given Law School tuition, the price of the best mattress, pillow, and sheets seems a small price to pay.
(12) Carefully make your bed each morning so that you will not be tempted to crawl under your sheets for a few more winks (which can turn into hours). Military Special Forces have "bed-making specifications". See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRRxww6eDvc.
(13) Throw away all clocks you may have that have "snooze" buttons. Smart Phones are too expensive to throw away, so just disable the feature and keep it disabled.
(14) Be careful about RX sleeping aids- Ambien for example. Don't talk to your Primary. Talk to a Sleep Disorder doctor.
(15) If you have sleep apnea get to a sleep clinic/lab asap (unless you want to stop breathing midway through the night). ASSM [American Academia of Sleep Medicine] Accreditation is discussed at https://sleepeducation.org/sleep-center.
(16) Watch out for ADHD medications or Modafinal- the cure ("upper") might be worse than day-time fatigue or a tendency to overly procrastinate. And something everybody forgets: You will likely have to disclose the use of psychoactive drugs on your Fitness and Character Report. In turn, the Bar can hold up your admission for a considerable period of time (sometimes forever, or at least under months or years of strict supervision by a barred attorney and a mental health counselor). I wager that when you were selected by your top-notch Law School, the School never told you this. The ABA, and many State Bar Associations, pat themselves on their backs for their enlightened treatment of attorneys suffering from mental health issues. Congratulations are hardly in order. In many (all?) States, attorneys may be suspended or disbarred for Major Depressive Disorder or Bi-Polar Disorder (etc.). In re Bagwell 286 Ga. 511 (2010) [the attorney also offered evidence that he suffered with “Bi-Polar Disorder, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, major depressive disorder, and generalized anxiety disorder, and has undergone in-patient psychiatric evaluation.” Id. The court imposed a two-year suspension and conditioned reinstatement on certification of mental competence. It should be noted that Chief Justice Hunstein dissented, stating that “Based on Bagwell’s admitted conduct, I disagree that suspension is an appropriate discipline. Because I would disbar Bagwell, I respectfully dissent.” Id. at 512].

Note the anomaly: An attorney that suffers from depression is "mentally incompetent" until proven otherwise (and he/she has the burden of proof). And this, despite many reports that upwards of 28% of all trial attorneys will have major depressive disorder at some point in their careers.
(17) Apparently, in some cases bad sleep habits can be improved through cognitive behavioral therapy (CBD). Will you need to disclose such therapy on your Fitness and Character Report?
(18) No television or computer displays in the bedroom.
(19) Never study in bed and your bedroom should never be your study area (your "workstation").
(19) No Alcohol before bed. It's a stimulant.
(20) If you don’t fall asleep after 20 minutes, get out of bed. Go do a quiet activity without a lot of light exposure. If you stay in bed, tossing and turning, your anxiety will skyrocket because you will increasingly think you will never fall asleep. Chasing your own tail.
(21) A Melatonin supplement helps some- far from all.
Lmfao - might as well say "quit your job if you want to follow this sleep guide". I literally know no one in high-paying industries (doctors, lawyers, bankers etc.) that has a job that lets them comply with this.
The only thing they may not be able to comply with everynight is:

(1) 7-8 hours of sleep.
(2) Go to sleep and wake up at the same time each night/morning.

Other than that, all great advice.

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