STB v. Cleary Forum

[Anonymous User]

Excited about both firms but I really liked the vibes I got from the partners at Cleary. I want to try M&A/Cap Markets but also may be interested in doing Tax. Is STB that much better for corporate that I shouldn't choose Cleary for fit?

[Anonymous User]

they are peer firms, go with fit

[Anonymous User]

Over the last few years, STB has been doing much better. At this point, STB is the better firm.

[Anonymous User]

This is absolutely a fit call. STB might be officially doing better in M&A/Cap Markets or whatever, but these are peer firms and all the work is gonna be in the same ballpark (on the corp side at least). Go where you like.

[Anonymous User]

they are peer firms, go with fit

not to derail the thread (kinda derailing though) but what is the breakdown/delineation for where you consider firms to be enough of "peer firms" for a decision to be largely a fit check?

[Anonymous User]

Anon because I am at Cleary. I don’t know much about Capital Markets, but M&A is relatively humane. No official billable target, everyone gets bonus. Staffers try to give you breaks. Culture is shifting towards associates (not sure about partners, but that’s irrelevant to us) actually taking vacations, and people not bothering you on those vacations. Almost every associate I know went on some sort of protected vacation this summer, ranging from a long weekend to a few weeks. Not to say there isn’t attrition, but people are generally nice.

If it matters to you, I think Cleary/STB Chambers rankings for Tax are both Band 1. To the extent I’ve worked with tax, everyone seemed very nice and normal.

I don’t know anything about STB except that I had a bad experience with their screener interview (turned them down immediately after). I’m sure that’s not at all representative of the whole firm, but I went with the firm that I generally liked people at.

[Anonymous User]

they are peer firms, go with fit

not to derail the thread (kinda derailing though) but what is the breakdown/delineation for where you consider firms to be enough of "peer firms" for a decision to be largely a fit check?

I don't think there is a definitive delineation, but for this particular comparison how I'd think about it:

- What is the pedigree or rep of the firms: Both old white shoe NY firms just a few spots apart on Vault
- What are they good at: Both are high up in the relevant areas on Chambers, maybe a slight edge to STB for M&A specifically (but e.g., if you were interested in like White Collar this would show you that Cleary is the better choice)
- What's the comp structure: I don't think either has bonus requirements, etc.
yadda yadda if there is something particular you care about

That's more or less enough to know that you are gonna do basically the same work for basically the same comp with basically the same exit options, so you should probably be looking at other factors like the people and the location unless you legitimately do not care about that.

[Anonymous User]

Anon because I am at Cleary. I don’t know much about Capital Markets, but M&A is relatively humane. No official billable target, everyone gets bonus. Staffers try to give you breaks. Culture is shifting towards associates (not sure about partners, but that’s irrelevant to us) actually taking vacations, and people not bothering you on those vacations. Almost every associate I know went on some sort of protected vacation this summer, ranging from a long weekend to a few weeks. Not to say there isn’t attrition, but people are generally nice.

If it matters to you, I think Cleary/STB Chambers rankings for Tax are both Band 1. To the extent I’ve worked with tax, everyone seemed very nice and normal.

I don’t know anything about STB except that I had a bad experience with their screener interview (turned them down immediately after). I’m sure that’s not at all representative of the whole firm, but I went with the firm that I generally liked people at.

I heard that there was a town hall earlier this year where it was announced that "unofficial target" is 2k hours? Do you know what this means? I just lateraled to Cleary.. and nervous that if I hit below this unofficial I will get dinged on bonus.

[Anonymous User]

Anon because also at Cleary.

Yes, they announced an unofficial target of 2k hours this year (including practice development and pro bono). That being said, lockstep comp is a religion around here, so it would be a pretty huge change if they were to deny a full market bonus to anyone (including COVID, summer, DPW deluxe, etc.). At worst, they'll mention it in reviews and discuss how to bring hours up, though imagine you'll get a fair amount of leeway as a lateral if you are not turning work down.

To plug fit a bit more -- very difficult to really get a feel for this when interviewing, but I will say that I have plenty of friends at "peer" NY firms a notch or two higher on vault who were looking to jump ship after a few years (fairly standard). Your mileage will vary, but because of good relationships and a manageable (still pretty grueling) workload at Cleary, I will have enough gas in the tank and support here to keep me around several more years than said friends, which will net me a nice chunk of cash when considering the positions that juniors/mid-levels will commonly lateral into.

[Anonymous User]

Given the work from home shifts due to COVID, what are the facetime expectations at both firms moving forward? I haven't heard much about Cleary in particular on these forums, would appreciate hearing any insight with CGSH.

[Anonymous User]

First Cleary anon here. 2k hours requirement includes 75 hours of firm stuff (committees, etc.) and 1925 of “legal work.” I know the legal work requirement includes unlimited pro bono, and I think it includes business development but not personal learning (someone correct me if I am horribly mistaken). That said, agree with above that lockstep comp is religion around here. I think the requirement is more a target in the sense of “this is how many hours you need to feel comfortable going on longer vacations/turning down work,” and is probably softer for certain specialist groups.

Re: work from home. I think we’re officially 3 days a week in the office, but if you get your work done I don’t see anyone being strict about that.

[Anonymous User]

First Cleary anon here. 2k hours requirement includes 75 hours of firm stuff (committees, etc.) and 1925 of “legal work.” I know the legal work requirement includes unlimited pro bono, and I think it includes business development but not personal learning (someone correct me if I am horribly mistaken). That said, agree with above that lockstep comp is religion around here. I think the requirement is more a target in the sense of “this is how many hours you need to feel comfortable going on longer vacations/turning down work,” and is probably softer for certain specialist groups.

Re: work from home. I think we’re officially 3 days a week in the office, but if you get your work done I don’t see anyone being strict about that.

OP who asked re 2k target. guess nobody really knows until yoy what this "target" really means but its just odd to suddenly announce some sort of "target" if they are going to give full bonus to everyone anyways. still wary (i've hit below 2k at previous firm before) and STB seems to have an edge on this one

[Anonymous User]

Second Cleary anon again -- I'm not sure how it's factored in, but I had understood that at least attending substantive group presentations and related work would be factored in. May be subject to the 75 hour cap but not sure.

And on wariness about the introduction of the new benchmark, agree this is generally a negative, but my sense is also that this is in response to our averages being a bit lower than comparable firms (have heard it's around 1800-1900) and the partners want to nudge those numbers up (especially in light of paying out new market bonuses).

[Anonymous User]

First Cleary anon here. 2k hours requirement includes 75 hours of firm stuff (committees, etc.) and 1925 of “legal work.” I know the legal work requirement includes unlimited pro bono, and I think it includes business development but not personal learning (someone correct me if I am horribly mistaken). That said, agree with above that lockstep comp is religion around here. I think the requirement is more a target in the sense of “this is how many hours you need to feel comfortable going on longer vacations/turning down work,” and is probably softer for certain specialist groups.

Re: work from home. I think we’re officially 3 days a week in the office, but if you get your work done I don’t see anyone being strict about that.

OP who asked re 2k target. guess nobody really knows until yoy what this "target" really means but its just odd to suddenly announce some sort of "target" if they are going to give full bonus to everyone anyways. still wary (i've hit below 2k at previous firm before) and STB seems to have an edge on this one

cant imagine someone at Simpson would bill less than 2k hours this year lool if you are not gonna get bonus at cleary, you might also get an warning/ alert from simpson HR lol

[Anonymous User]

Anon Cleary cap markets. It is a pleasant and reasonable group.