Delta Variant and Reopening plans Forum

[Anonymous User]

What are your thoughts on the recent uptick in Covid cases and its effect on firm reopening plans?

My firm had stated in spring that they planned on reopening partially in August, with 3 days a week required. Doesn't seem to be happening and now with recent mask mandates, we're required to wear masks within office as well (if we choose to come in).

[nls336]

What are your thoughts on the recent uptick in Covid cases and its effect on firm reopening plans?

My firm had stated in spring that they planned on reopening partially in August, with 3 days a week required. Doesn't seem to be happening and now with recent mask mandates, we're required to wear masks within office as well (if we choose to come in).

Personally, I think because congress never authorized liability protection for corporations before the end of the last congress (correct me if I'm wrong) we will likely be in-person optional for most of the winter. Corporations will take on big risks forcing people back into the office and anyone who gets sick can say it was negligent to force them to come back, in my opinion.

The other bigger social risk is the possibility of a vaccine-resistant strain emerging from the vaccinated getting it w/ breakthrough cases and, obviously, not everyone who is immunocompromised knows it at this stage so forcing people to come back into the office could be pretty unintentionally dangerous. So, I'm negative on the outlook of mandatory in-person work.

[marquinm]

Bump

[mtf612]

Maybe I am a pessimist, but I just cannot picture firms that have already announced return-to-office dates with "flexible" 3/3.5/4 day schedules going back on those plans and extending work from home due to Delta. I suspect these firms want butts in seats and will only extend WFH is absolutely forced to do so. While there is an upswing in case counts due to Delta, it seems that breakthrough cases for vaccinated folks are relatively low and serious breakthrough cases are very rare. I think these firms would rather us back in the office with masks instead of continuing to allow WFH.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe I am a pessimist, but I just cannot picture firms that have already announced return-to-office dates with "flexible" 3/3.5/4 day schedules going back on those plans and extending work from home due to Delta. I suspect these firms want butts in seats and will only extend WFH is absolutely forced to do so. While there is an upswing in case counts due to Delta, it seems that breakthrough cases for vaccinated folks are relatively low and serious breakthrough cases are very rare. I think these firms would rather us back in the office with masks instead of continuing to allow WFH.

I'm not sure how common it will be among firms, but McDermott actually did just this. They had previously announced a flexible return to work in early September, asking people to target coming in around 3 days per week or so. But they announced yesterday that they are now extending full WFH until mid-October (if not later, dependent upon how things shake out) and that starting next week, anybody going into the office needs to be vaccinated. In the meantime, anyone that wants to go back into the office is treated to free Sweetgreen delivery lol.

[Anonymous User]

My firm also recently went to a mandate that you must be vaccinated in order to go into the office. They also had planned to require 2 days in office starting after labor day, so I'm interested in whether they continue with that (basically requiring you be vaccinated by September).

[jotarokujo]

My firm also recently went to a mandate that you must be vaccinated in order to go into the office. They also had planned to require 2 days in office starting after labor day, so I'm interested in whether they continue with that (basically requiring you be vaccinated by September).

requiring mask to go in seems incompatible with also requiring people to go in. that's just not where the market is at

[Anonymous User]

My firm also recently went to a mandate that you must be vaccinated in order to go into the office. They also had planned to require 2 days in office starting after labor day, so I'm interested in whether they continue with that (basically requiring you be vaccinated by September).

requiring mask to go in seems incompatible with also requiring people to go in. that's just not where the market is at

Right, I think I get your point but just to clarify, our policy went to you must both wear a mask and be vaccinated to go into the office. So I'm wondering if the couple days in office mandate will proceed as scheduled next month. I assume we'll follow whatever most other firms start doing.

[Ultramar vistas]

K&E just went to a masks in common areas rule, at least in Texas. No delay to reopening plan at the moment, but agreed you can’t reasonably ask people to come in with Delta on the current upswing.

[Anonymous User]

I have a newborn baby at home. Even if I'm vaccinated, as per the latest scientific data, I can easily pass along the Delta variant to my newborn. That's not a risk I am willing to take. What's the firm going to do? Tell me I must put the partners' desires to be overlords above the health and safety of my child? Pfft.

[Anonymous User]

I have a newborn baby at home. Even if I'm vaccinated, as per the latest scientific data, I can easily pass along the Delta variant to my newborn. That's not a risk I am willing to take. What's the firm going to do? Tell me I must put the partners' desires to be overlords above the health and safety of my child? Pfft.

Technically that is not what the latest data shows. As someone with the vaccine, you are still much less likely to get COVID in the first place. Without the virus, you can't pass anything onto the newborn. Even assuming you get it, there is not solid evidence that you are just as likely to transmit as an unvaccinated person, especially if you are asymptomatic. There are all kinds of issues with, for example, the Indian study that was cited by the CDC as it failed peer review. Other surveys cited have significant issues with selection bias.

Now you could say there are unknowns with Delta and that children under 1 year are at a higher risk to COVID than other children and therefore you dont want to take the risk-- and that's legit. But saying easily pass when you're vaccinated isnt quite right. These vaccines are a miracle of modern science and do a lot more than sensationalized news reports often give them credit for.

[Anonymous User]

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/ ... t-could-be

"...with concerning signs that some vaccinated people may be able to easily transmit the virus."

Nobody knows how transmissible, or how easily a vaccinated person can be a carrier and thus transmitter of the Delta variant. Vaccines are certainly a miracle, but that doesn't mean current evidence provides much comfort. Nobody knows really. And I'd rather take precautionary steps to protect my child than to have them become a statistic for post-event reflection and change.

So again, if the firm expects me to come in at the expense of my child's safety, nah.

[Anonymous User]

Would be great if we can keep this on topic about how firms are reacting (don't need to hear every person's life story about the kid at home or some weird auto immune condition they have). My firm is still planning on a labor day return

[attorney589753]

Technically that is not what the latest data shows. As someone with the vaccine, you are still much less likely to get COVID in the first place. Without the virus, you can't pass anything onto the newborn. Even assuming you get it, there is not solid evidence that you are just as likely to transmit as an unvaccinated person, especially if you are asymptomatic. There are all kinds of issues with, for example, the Indian study that was cited by the CDC as it failed peer review. Other surveys cited have significant issues with selection bias.

Now you could say there are unknowns with Delta and that children under 1 year are at a higher risk to COVID than other children and therefore you dont want to take the risk-- and that's legit. But saying easily pass when you're vaccinated isnt quite right. These vaccines are a miracle of modern science and do a lot more than sensationalized news reports often give them credit for.

I think this is a more rational view on the current best evidence between Delta and vaccines than the other poster in the thread. While it's true we don't "really know" exactly how much the vaccines prevent Delta transmission, it almost certainly helps some, and probably helps a lot. Which isn't the message that some of the latest news reports gave.

At the same time, as lawyers it has been proven that work from home is a pretty safe and easy alternative without impacting billable much. So I can understand the perspective that no one wants to be pressured to go back into the office while there's still some uncertainty about Delta and transmissibility (esp. the case if you are around other family members and not just about protecting yourself).

[Anonymous User]

Would be great if we can keep this on topic about how firms are reacting (don't need to hear every person's life story about the kid at home or some weird auto immune condition they have). My firm is still planning on a labor day return

Doesn't really matter at the end of the day. None of the midlevel and senior associates are coming back. I plan on coming back for 2days/week max and many weeks of not coming in at all. What are they going to do, fire me? They can't even hold onto the associates they have.

Wait until the market slows down and then fire me? Go for it - see how recruiting goes for my replacement.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe I am a pessimist, but I just cannot picture firms that have already announced return-to-office dates with "flexible" 3/3.5/4 day schedules going back on those plans and extending work from home due to Delta. I suspect these firms want butts in seats and will only extend WFH is absolutely forced to do so. While there is an upswing in case counts due to Delta, it seems that breakthrough cases for vaccinated folks are relatively low and serious breakthrough cases are very rare. I think these firms would rather us back in the office with masks instead of continuing to allow WFH.

I'm not sure how common it will be among firms, but McDermott actually did just this. They had previously announced a flexible return to work in early September, asking people to target coming in around 3 days per week or so. But they announced yesterday that they are now extending full WFH until mid-October (if not later, dependent upon how things shake out) and that starting next week, anybody going into the office needs to be vaccinated. In the meantime, anyone that wants to go back into the office is treated to free Sweetgreen delivery lol.

Do you know if there's any public reporting around this (even just an ATL article)? My firm has announced reopening in early September, but we're also tracking what peer firms are doing and might change course if there is a shift toward delaying reopening further.

[Anonymous User]

Cravath today announced they’re pushing back reopening until October 18 “depending on conditions and further guidance” aka some tbd time in the distant future.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe I am a pessimist, but I just cannot picture firms that have already announced return-to-office dates with "flexible" 3/3.5/4 day schedules going back on those plans and extending work from home due to Delta. I suspect these firms want butts in seats and will only extend WFH is absolutely forced to do so. While there is an upswing in case counts due to Delta, it seems that breakthrough cases for vaccinated folks are relatively low and serious breakthrough cases are very rare. I think these firms would rather us back in the office with masks instead of continuing to allow WFH.

I'm not sure how common it will be among firms, but McDermott actually did just this. They had previously announced a flexible return to work in early September, asking people to target coming in around 3 days per week or so. But they announced yesterday that they are now extending full WFH until mid-October (if not later, dependent upon how things shake out) and that starting next week, anybody going into the office needs to be vaccinated. In the meantime, anyone that wants to go back into the office is treated to free Sweetgreen delivery lol.

Do you know if there's any public reporting around this (even just an ATL article)? My firm has announced reopening in early September, but we're also tracking what peer firms are doing and might change course if there is a shift toward delaying reopening further.

Yes -- there's a Law 360 article that was just published yesterday! It's called "More BigLaw Firms Requiring Vaccination For In-Office Work".

[jotarokujo]

Cravath today announced they’re pushing back reopening until October 18 “depending on conditions and further guidance” aka some tbd time in the distant future.

this is probably what the market will move to

[Anonymous User]

I don't see how it is a good idea for reopening to go as scheduled for now.
-too many unknowns re Delta Variant
-under-12s remain unvaccinated
-just enough people still have some kind of special circumstance that makes things that make a return harder to navigate: pregnancy, auto-immune issues, family at home who are at especially high risk, childcare and school interruptions
-commutes on public transit will involve some amount of risk
-firms can't control what attorneys and staff do in their free time; even if colleagues are generally required to be vaccinated, a contingent of folks will be exposed and possibly infected. At my firm, we often huddle up in one office for calls and meetings. If someone brings COVID to the office, it could easily spread.
-don't think there is an appetite for a masked return

[Anonymous User]

I'm not a fan of going back for work-life balance reasons but my firm is 99% vaccinated and I think has already mandated in order to work in office. There have been 3.5K hospitalizations of vaccinated adults out of 166 million. The evidence on <12 is extremely positive even w/o vaccines. These #s are better than flu season - the current outbreak is driven entirely by non-vacciniated people.

The best we're going to do with a respiratory virus is turn into another version of the flu. I don't see how the current #s in NY somehow require remote work. At that point, you're just conflating our preference for remote work from the public health need.

[Anonymous User]

I don't see how it is a good idea for reopening to go as scheduled for now.
-too many unknowns re Delta Variant
-under-12s remain unvaccinated
-just enough people still have some kind of special circumstance that makes things that make a return harder to navigate: pregnancy, auto-immune issues, family at home who are at especially high risk, childcare and school interruptions
-commutes on public transit will involve some amount of risk
-firms can't control what attorneys and staff do in their free time; even if colleagues are generally required to be vaccinated, a contingent of folks will be exposed and possibly infected. At my firm, we often huddle up in one office for calls and meetings. If someone brings COVID to the office, it could easily spread.
-don't think there is an appetite for a masked return

While I agree with all your points, I don’t see those underlying factors changing or improving in the foreseeable future — not in October, not in 2022 and beyond. Call me a “doomer,” but I think the Delta variant will peak and then fall, and we’ll then have a quiet period before another vaccine-resistant variant pops up again. The vulnerable / immunocompromised will remain vulnerable and immunocompromised. And so on and so on. There’ll never be a point at which we have conquered the virus and rendered everything completely safe (and if it feels that way, it’s probably illusory — remember how we all felt invincible after vaxxing in the spring?).

This is more of a societal-level discussion than law-firm-specific, but I think we can either live in a constant state of reactive oscillations, expanding & contracting, masking and un-masking, coming in vs. WFH; or our society will adjust to the fact that this isn’t going away, and (particularly as we start to quantify and better understand some of the tail risks like long COVID), just live our lives in its midst. Sort of like the flu.

[umichman]

I don't see how it is a good idea for reopening to go as scheduled for now.
-too many unknowns re Delta Variant
-under-12s remain unvaccinated
-just enough people still have some kind of special circumstance that makes things that make a return harder to navigate: pregnancy, auto-immune issues, family at home who are at especially high risk, childcare and school interruptions
-commutes on public transit will involve some amount of risk
-firms can't control what attorneys and staff do in their free time; even if colleagues are generally required to be vaccinated, a contingent of folks will be exposed and possibly infected. At my firm, we often huddle up in one office for calls and meetings. If someone brings COVID to the office, it could easily spread.
-don't think there is an appetite for a masked return

While I agree with all your points, I don’t see those underlying factors changing or improving in the foreseeable future — not in October, not in 2022 and beyond. Call me a “doomer,” but I think the Delta variant will peak and then fall, and we’ll then have a quiet period before another vaccine-resistant variant pops up again. The vulnerable / immunocompromised will remain vulnerable and immunocompromised. And so on and so on. There’ll never be a point at which we have conquered the virus and rendered everything completely safe (and if it feels that way, it’s probably illusory — remember how we all felt invincible after vaxxing in the spring?).

This is more of a societal-level discussion than law-firm-specific, but I think we can either live in a constant state of reactive oscillations, expanding & contracting, masking and un-masking, coming in vs. WFH; or our society will adjust to the fact that this isn’t going away, and (particularly as we start to quantify and better understand some of the tail risks like long COVID), just live our lives in its midst. Sort of like the flu.

I do believe that once all kids/babies can get the vaccine, the risk to the populations health will be no greater, and probably lower than the flu and everyone will be safe to return to work. But the risk of going back and bringing it home to unvaccinated kids, who don't have the choice of whether to get vaccinated, far outweighs the minute benefits of returning to work for lawyers.

The immunocompromised/those who wont get the vaccine for whatever reason, will always need to wear a mask.

[gontid]

Any movement today?

[Anonymous User]

Any movement today?

PW delayed indefinitely and said they will give 30 days notice